Bigger, Better, and Stronger

[hab29RETIRED]

Commandant, lets just hope we have a few different bodies on defence next year who can log some heavy minutes. Then like you boys were saying; markov can play select minute. The guy is a HUGE risk. That knee is not right. It won't take much to tweak it. I understand he's a vet and had a great come back year. But why not see what he can bring in on a trade.

Any opinions...?

I don't see Markov's knee as a huge risk. I think his knee has slowed him down and reduced his effectiveness 5 on 5 againt the top guys or on the PK. Reduce is ice time and don't use him as the #1 paring D and he should be very effective as a complementary piece rather then the core of the D.

[JGC21]

The Habs are a good, fast regular season team. But I suspect that they will bulk up after having been pushed around yet again in another playoff series. I still want them to be a fast, quick transition team but I see no harm in adding 2-3 bigger, physical players with mean streaks.

[Guest Stogey24]

That's a beauty pic bud lol

[JoeLassister]

Given that Galyenchuk has been deemed 'not ready to play at C' by Therrien this series, I'm not sure why you're anointing him our #1 C for next September. Dollars to dougnhuts he will start next season on the wing, and gradually move to C duties over the course of the year, assuming a linear progression.

But certainly by 2015 an Eller-Galy-Pleks configuration at C is all but assured. And a damn good configuration that is.I suspect we're stuck with DD over the transition, however.

.

Was talking about the C situation with friends yesterday. 6 of us. NONE had Desharnais in Habs' core group.

Galchenyuk's situation reminds me of Subban's one. While lot of people, including several here on this board, were not ready to "anoint" Subban as our #1 dman, I was screaming that it was written in the sky, too obvious.

Same for Galchenyuk. Give him a summer of training, he automaticaly becomes our best forward, be it W or C.

I would even go as far as making him the new Captain right now à la Toews, Landeskog, Crosby, etc.

[Guest Stogey24]

The KID is 19. Crosby and towes are an exception. The only time you do that is in a major rebuild.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Stogey24

[habs rule]

Sidney Crosby 5 foot 11 200 lbs. Why can't we get big guys like this?

[Guest Stogey24]

1 in a million

I would draft a kid that's 3 feet tall with his skill level.

5'11 200 is a lot different than 5'7 or 5'6 170lbs.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Stogey24

[illWill]

Was talking about the C situation with friends yesterday. 6 of us. NON had Desharnais in Habs' core group.

Galchenyuk's situation reminds me of Subban's one. While lot of people, including several here on this board, were not ready to "anoint" Subban as our #1 dman, I was screaming that it was written in the sky, too obvious.

Same for Galchenyuk. Give him a summer of training, he automaticaly becomes our best forward, be it W or C.

I would even go as far as making him the new Captain right now à la Toews, Landeskog, Crosby, etc.

I agree with the DD statement. He just doesn't seem to fit in with this group long term, which is why the resigning puzzled me. I like him as a player and thought the money was fair, but where does he play? Pleks, Chucky and Eller are your top 3 centers moving forward.

And yes, after watching Chucky play with men this year after missing most of his last year in junior, it is safe to say that by all likely hood that he will become our top forward at some point. It's been a very long time since we've drafted a player with his potential and pedigree.

[revvvrob]

I think the DD signing was a combo of insurance/depth (in the event one of Pleks, Eller, Chucky took a step back or got hurt or aren't ready to be a top line C in 2013-2014) and asset management (DD can still be worth SOMETHING via trade since his salary and term is manageable).

DD isn't going to be a top 9 C for the Habs for the length of his contract. he will be insurance or moved for a middling draft pick eventually.

[Guest Stogey24]

DD is so underrated. A trade would be pointless. They see something in this guy. Watch for pleky to get moved. I'm not really sure where MB was going with DD signing, unless their plan is to move another centre.

Really felt like Eller was starting to find his stride this year. Looks very promising.

[Neech]

And like this on the blueline:

Subban

Gorges

Emelin

Tinordi

Markov (?)

Diaz/Beaulieu

These are not configurations in which size is a problem.

Consider that Gio will certainly be gone by 2015, and you can see where overreacting to the "size" issue would be a mistake. All we really need, IMHO, is a transitional player on defence to tide us over until Tinordi is ready, a Shane O'Brien type. That's what I'd look for this summer if I were Bergevin.

I still think that D corps is a little soft/small. Personally, I'd think of trading Markov now. His value is still high as one of the best powerplay producers in the league, but he's slowing down and doesn't seem to have many effective years left in him. We have guys like Beaulieu and Diaz who can fill that role in the future. I think we need a big responsible D in the vein of Marc Methot.

I don't count myself in the "Habs lose because they're weak and small" bandwagon, considering how well we've played bigger teams when we're on our game, but our back end definitely needs more grit.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I still think that D corps is a little soft/small. Personally, I'd think of trading Markov now. His value is still high as one of the best powerplay producers in the league, but he's slowing down and doesn't seem to have many effective years left in him. We have guys like Beaulieu and Diaz who can fill that role in the future. I think we need a big responsible D in the vein of Marc Methot.

I don't count myself in the "Habs lose because they're weak and small" bandwagon, considering how well we've played bigger teams when we're on our game, but our back end definitely needs more grit.

The configuration I listed has three tough-to-play-against, hard-hitting defencement: Emelin, Subban, and Tinordi. I know we don't think of PK as a shut-down guy, nor should we, but the fact is he hits like a battering ram and is very, very tough to beat down low, so he gives you most of what a 'defensive' defenceman does along with his massive offensive upside. I think three such defenders in the top-6 is sufficient. The issue, as I see it, is not where we'll be in two years, it's how to tide ourselves over until Emelin is back and healthy, and until Tinordi is in a position to play major minutes as a hard-hitting shutdown guy.

The Markov situation is an improved version of the Desharnais situation. He is, sadly, a transitional figure, playing the role of #2 offensive defenceman until such time as Diaz or Beaulieu show themselves to be ready for that role. Were we to unload him now, though, we risk taking a major step backward unless either of those two guys is in fact ready to assume major minutes on the PP and in general.

[JoeLassister]

The Markov situation is an improved version of the Desharnais situation. He is, sadly, a transitional figure, playing the role of #2 offensive defenceman until such time as Diaz or Beaulieu show themselves to be ready for that role. Were we to unload him now, though, we risk taking a major step backward unless either of those two guys is in fact ready to assume major minutes on the PP and in general.

Depends. Markov + MTL 1st rounder for a great dman could be attractive for some team with a "stacked" dmen group.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Depends. Markov + MTL 1st rounder for a great dman could be attractive for some team with a "stacked" dman.

That's true. It's a bit of a long shot, however.

[Trizzak]

On defense, the team is still looking for the replacement for Hamrlik.

Emelin could be that guy (I expect him to help out more offensively next season), but he, Gorges and Tinordi are all primarily 1 zone players. A big 2-way defenseman in the lineup would be nice to replace Diaz (IMHO).

[Neech]

The configuration I listed has three tough-to-play-against, hard-hitting defencement: Emelin, Subban, and Tinordi. I know we don't think of PK as a shut-down guy, nor should we, but the fact is he hits like a battering ram and is very, very tough to beat down low, so he gives you most of what a 'defensive' defenceman does along with his massive offensive upside. I think three such defenders in the top-6 is sufficient. The issue, as I see it, is not where we'll be in two years, it's how to tide ourselves over until Emelin is back and healthy, and until Tinordi is in a position to play major minutes as a hard-hitting shutdown guy.

The Markov situation is an improved version of the Desharnais situation. He is, sadly, a transitional figure, playing the role of #2 offensive defenceman until such time as Diaz or Beaulieu show themselves to be ready for that role. Were we to unload him now, though, we risk taking a major step backward unless either of those two guys is in fact ready to assume major minutes on the PP and in general.

I think Diaz is close to being able to fill Markov's diminishing role. The thing is that Markov's value is still high, and next summer we'd be faced with resigning him. We don't know if he'll pull a Gonchar and continue to be effective for years after appearing to be on his last legs, but I don't know if we should be the team to take that risk.

In your first paragraph you outlined why I think we need to replace him with more grit: Emelin and Tinordi aren't ready to fill that physical role at the moment. Like others have said, we need a new Hamrlik.

Then again, Markov is the type of player that you don't realize how much you miss until he's gone. I just think we should try to sell while the price is high for a change (which, to his credit, Bergevin managed to do with Cole).

[Guest Stogey24]

I still think that D corps is a little soft/small. Personally, I'd think of trading Markov now. His value is still high as one of the best powerplay producers in the league, but he's slowing down and doesn't seem to have many effective years left in him. We have guys like Beaulieu and Diaz who can fill that role in the future. I think we need a big responsible D in the vein of Marc Methot.

I don't count myself in the "Habs lose because they're weak and small" bandwagon, considering how well we've played bigger teams when we're on our game, but our back end definitely needs more grit.

Bandwagon? Your contradicting yourself.

[Neech]

I don't think so, there are people who always point to our size as the main reason when we lose, which I don't believe is the case. We often beat these bigger teams that we're supposedly overmatched against by playing to our strengths. I do see it as an area where we can improve, however, especially on D.

[HabsTrick450]

The thing is the 2nd place finish hyped people up and we expected big things in the playoffsI expect us to finish lower than we did this season next year, I don't think we can keep that play up for 82 games unless we get bigger and tougher: guys like Clowe, Clarkson and Cooke could help us do that.. On trading Markov, I think it's a good idea if it helps in the long term. Giving him up along with our first rounder would only be viable if we got a young NHL-ready D for it. MB said it today, we will build through the draft. On the back-end, I agree we need a good 2-way guy because right now we only have Subban and that isn't enough. Emelin is developing into an awesome hitter who might be able to chip in offensively, Subban is becoming a true superstar, Tinordi will be a staple at our blue line for years to come, Beaulieu will be a good future powerplay quarterback, Diaz could be the QB for the time being, Gorges is a dedicated player and a leader despite a tough year and Bouillon has heart but he's getting old. Drewiske and Weber won't be back for sure. We have good potential on defense, we just need another two-way guy and we should be good.

[Guest Stogey24]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=8401880

[patience is a virtue]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=8401880

This article is garbage.

Try this for some reasoned analysis: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/5/12/4323064/the-montreal-canadiens-post-mortem-it-wasnt-size

And this for why size has nothing to do with injury rates: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/5/19/4343714/does-a-lack-of-size-create-injuries

The debates in the comments sections alone on those two articles is about 10X more informative than anything Pat Hickey has ever written.

[patience is a virtue]

I think Diaz is close to being able to fill Markov's diminishing role...

Then again, Markov is the type of player that you don't realize how much you miss until he's gone. I just think we should try to sell while the price is high for a change (which, to his credit, Bergevin managed to do with Cole).

The first sentence here is totally nutso. (I could come to agree with the second two, but it would take a huge offer to force MB to trade his General). Diaz will never be half the player Markov was pre-injuries, or is today. They guy scored 4th most points amongst dmen after missing 2 bloody seasons! Most of the points came when he was fresh early in the season - did you watch those games? He was an absolute force. The guy is still one of the very best offensive dmen in the league.

Then MT overused Markov constantly over the course of a packed schedule, yet he did not miss a single game or shift. But he was gradually burnt out as his first season in three years wore on (remember he played 20 games in Russia before coming over - helped him off to a hot start, but meant he was worn out by the end of it).

Nonetheless, I agree that his defensive game is on the decline. I hope he has a few more top flight offensive years left in him. If so, he will be at the CORE of a couple or more SC runs.

The General remains the best PP quarterback in the NHL and impossible to replace. There is simply no other player on defence with his vision for the game. He has always been a Hab and I hope he will always be a Hab. You ride him as long as he wants to give 'er. If he helps lead the team to a cup or two these next few years, he will be the next jersey up in the rafters.

[Guest Stogey24]

How is that article grabage? Pat Hickey lives and breaths Habs.. There is a reason CBC and TSN bring this guy in during intermissions. Berkshire is writer. That's it that's all.

You stick to your injury averages and what not. This team is not bringing home a cup the way they're stacked up right up.

[Guest Stogey24]

The first sentence here is totally nutso. (I could come to agree with the second two, but it would take a huge offer to force MB to trade his General). Diaz will never be half the player Markov was pre-injuries, or is today. They guy scored 4th most points amongst dmen after missing 2 bloody seasons! Most of the points came when he was fresh early in the season - did you watch those games? He was an absolute force. The guy is still one of the very best offensive dmen in the league.

Then MT overused Markov constantly over the course of a packed schedule, yet he did not miss a single game or shift. But he was gradually burnt out as his first season in three years wore on (remember he played 20 games in Russia before coming over - helped him off to a hot start, but meant he was worn out by the end of it).

Nonetheless, I agree that his defensive game is on the decline. I hope he has a few more top flight offensive years left in him. If so, he will be at the CORE of a couple or more SC runs.

The General remains the best PP quarterback in the NHL and impossible to replace. There is simply no other player on defence with his vision for the game. He has always been a Hab and I hope he will always be a Hab. You ride him as long as he wants to give 'er. If he helps lead the team to a cup or two these next few years, he will be the next jersey up in the rafters.

You have to remember there is a business aspect to the game too. Maybe the right thing to do is sell while he's hot...? See what he can bring in. Montreal is in some what of a rebuild, correct?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The link to the Hickey article isn't working for me. But Hickey has never been a particularly astute analyst. He's more the type to parrot conventional wisdom than think deeply and interestingly about the game.

The thing with the "size" debate is that, in a certain sense, it's a no-brainer. Obviously if you can reasonably acquire a Lucic, Chara, Pacioretty, Kopitar, etc., etc., you do that. Duh. But making a fetish of size irrespective of skill-level is just as stupid as running around signing a ton of small, soft players.

Now, maybe we will never win unless we get two or three Lucics. But a lot of the "size" analysis is based on 5 playoff games against Ottawa when we were missing our toughest defenceman and an emerging 6'2 centreman, and while out best power forward was playing with a separated shoulder. The analysis also tends to ignore the success of Chicago and Detroit, neither of which are teams of hulks and in fact look suspiciously like the Habs in terms of general team make-up.

Subtract Desharnais from his inflated role in the playoff, add a bruising defenceman, have fewer 'big' habs suffer injuries in the playoffs, and hey presto, nobody is complaining about our size.

Meanwhile, people sure love to trade away top performers. Gallagher and Markov - let's move 'em!! Nobody in principle is untouchable, but I wouldn't be in a raving hurry to trade away keys to the team's success. Indeed, I can't think of too many examples of teams dealing away players like that. If a guy's "value is high" that might just be because he's a terrific player, see.