Montreal Canadiens vs. Philadelphia Flyers @ Wells Fargo Center (7:30PM ET)

[Guest Stogey24]

If you get out to a game, you have to see them in warmups. They might be the smallest team in professional sports. I don't mean that averages nonsense that the smurfaholics quote, but to a man, they are tiny. Murray and Pacioretty are their only big players. Whoever built this team needs a lobotomy, and if the advanced stats geeks are right, we're headed for a very heavy regression.

And another thing! The Habs are off again today. Why are they constantly taking days off? Doesn't Therrien think they need to practice?

Yeah, it's honestly a joke sometimes. I bet teams look forward to playing Montreal. They get to wear they're small gear for the game.

[dlbalr]

And another thing! The Habs are off again today. Why are they constantly taking days off? Doesn't Therrien think they need to practice?

One of the new parts of the CBA is mandatory and pre-scheduled days off (minimum of 4 per month). The Habs typically take these on Sundays but with the open practice at the Bell Centre this past Sunday, they needed to put one in during the week to compensate. With a two-day break between games, the logical time to do an in-week one would have been today.

[DON]

If you get out to a game, you have to see them in warmups. They might be the smallest team in professional sports. I don't mean that averages nonsense that the smurfaholics quote, but to a man, they are tiny. Murray and Pacioretty are their only big players. Whoever built this team needs a lobotomy, and if the advanced stats geeks are right, we're headed for a very heavy regression.

And another thing! The Habs are off again today. Why are they constantly taking days off? Doesn't Therrien think they need to practice?

Could be worse, you could be the builder of Red Wings/Rangers/Leafs version 13-14 (Or Oilers, Flames, Jets. Sens eh?).

[DON]

Your team is down by 2, and your best player shows some emotion in a game lacking it.

Do you a) bench that player for 10 minutes, or b) use that emotion to get more out of that player and your team?

If you are Therrien (and apparently brobin), you bench him for 10 minutes of the 3rd period, basically killing any chance your team has at a comeback. The only thing worse than PK's stupid, selfish penalty was Therrien's stupid, selfish way of handling it.

Got zero problem with short benching, was a bone-head move Subban has pulled numerous times, but I (most) know dick-all what goes on behind closed doors (other than edited versions of 24CH) so who can really cant say was incorrect move or not?

Someone was wondering why Yzerman had some reservation about Subban and why Subban wasn't listed as top 4 d-man, this example is why, Weber/Bowmiester/Pietroangelo/Kieth don't lose their cool and simply skate away from scrums like that.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, this is another game I missed and one I'm glad I did. But the benching of PK Subban sure is a head-scratcher to me.

Would LA bench Drew Doughty for a dumb penalty? Would the Islanders do the same with Tavares? TB with Stamkos?

I don't quite get this. When is Montreal management going to accept that PK Subban is the most explosive defenceman in all of hockey, an outright superstar, and stop treating him like a "questionable" player or a rookie whose game needs "fixing?"

Perhaps if Therrien had a track record of accomplishment this would be easier to accept. But he's not Mike Babcock. He's a middling coach who was mediocre in his first run with us and drummed out of Pittsburgh after they concluded that, despite a stacked roster, they could not win with him. The name of PK Subban will endure long after all memory of Therrien has faded from the minds of hockey fans; he's basically a nobody.

I'm sure PK will do what he's always done, i.e., quietly swallow his medicine, file it away in his memory, and keep being awesome. But I'll tell you one thing - Patrick Roy wouldn't have tolerated the analogous treatment from a nothing like Therrien. If we're looking at a battle between the best position player we have had since Guy Lafleur and Michel Therrien, there should be ZERO doubt as to whose side every last Habs fan should be on.

[Guest Stogey24]

Well, this is another game I missed and one I'm glad I did. But the benching of PK Subban sure is a head-scratcher to me.

Would LA bench Drew Doughty for a dumb penalty? Would the Islanders do the same with Tavares? TB with Stamkos?

I don't quite get this. When is Montreal management going to accept that PK Subban is the most explosive defenceman in all of hockey, an outright superstar, and stop treating him like a "questionable" player or a rookie whose game needs "fixing?"

Perhaps if Therrien had a track record of accomplishment this would be easier to accept. But he's not Mike Babcock. He's a middling coach who was mediocre in his first run with us and drummed out of Pittsburgh after they concluded that, despite a stacked roster, they could not win with him. The name of PK Subban will endure long after all memory of Therrien has faded from the minds of hockey fans; he's basically a nobody.

I'm sure PK will do what he's always done, i.e., quietly swallow his medicine, file it away in his memory, and keep being awesome. But I'll tell you one thing - Patrick Roy wouldn't have tolerated the analogous treatment from a nothing like Therrien. If we're looking at a battle between the best position player we have had since Guy Lafleur and Michel Therrien, there should be ZERO doubt as to whose side every last Habs fan should be on.

Exactly, Therrien let his ego take over and benched Subban. Dumb penalty or not, Subban is the guy you turn to when you need production

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Marc Denis probably said it best: “Too many passengers, not enough emotion.”

Team needs a trade. Time to swallow pride and make the right deal. Move bodies out, bring new bodies in. Even if it means calling up some youngsters.

This is probably Therrien at his most selfish. I've defended a lot of his actions but when you're so committed to the "team" concept that you cost the team? Your priorities are in the wrong place.

[habs rule]

I didn't see the game, but I have watched the lowlights. Therrien benching PK is juvenile. It would make more sense to me to go to Pk after the penalty and say you need to make up for that stupidity now go take this team on your shoulders and make something happen. No instead we bench him. Cause he can score from the bench? You think he is stupid and doesn't know that he forked up? Give him the green light to go fix it. He is one of the most exciting players in the NHL and you want to staple him to the bench, to prove your the boss? Somewhere I started a thread about firing Therrien for exactly this reason, maybe it is time to dig that baby out again, cause MT has lost his mind. We need a trade (and a new coach) and we need it now. Trade Gionta and get something to help this team. Make plex the captain. Do something for crying out loud. Oh that's right we aren't a true contender yet so we have to sit and wait. FOR WHAT? If we make no moves how do we improve? OK nuff ranting.

[brobin]

Your team is down by 2, and your best player shows some emotion in a game lacking it.

Do you a) bench that player for 10 minutes, or b) use that emotion to get more out of that player and your team?

If you are Therrien (and apparently brobin), you bench him for 10 minutes of the 3rd period, basically killing any chance your team has at a comeback. The only thing worse than PK's stupid, selfish penalty was Therrien's stupid, selfish way of handling it.

Nonsense. I am a huge fan of PK but he wasn't showing the kind of fired up emotion that would spark a comeback. I have seen this from him before and it is negative energy. He was far more likely to come out and take another stupid penalty then to score a goal.

People never concede that maybe, just maybe, the coaches on the bench are a better judge of the behaviour and emotional mood of their players then people watching on TV. PK has had these games where he runs around trying to get revenge for something. Maybe they felt he needed to cool down first. In any case, people are acting like he put in the press box in a close game. He wasn't, and it wasn't.

In any case, he missed a few shifts, then played over 5 minutes in the last 10 minutes. He did nothing in those ten minutes.

As for not pulling the goalie, that was a team message that needed to be sent. I have never seen such a lack of effort and they did nothing to suggest they were going to make a push. They barely had possession to pull the goalie. It was pointless, so he took the opportunity to send the message.

I agree that every point counts, which is why this team needs to wake up and get out of this funk before they follow Toronto out of a playoff spot.

[Guest Stogey24]

Marc Denis probably said it best: “Too many passengers, not enough emotion.”

Team needs a trade. Time to swallow pride and make the right deal. Move bodies out, bring new bodies in. Even if it means calling up some youngsters.

This is probably Therrien at his most selfish. I've defended a lot of his actions but when you're so committed to the "team" concept that you cost the team? Your priorities are in the wrong place.

Yup, we have too many of the same players.

[brobin]

Well, this is another game I missed and one I'm glad I did. But the benching of PK Subban sure is a head-scratcher to me.

Would LA bench Drew Doughty for a dumb penalty? Would the Islanders do the same with Tavares? TB with Stamkos?

I don't quite get this. When is Montreal management going to accept that PK Subban is the most explosive defenceman in all of hockey, an outright superstar, and stop treating him like a "questionable" player or a rookie whose game needs "fixing?"

Perhaps if Therrien had a track record of accomplishment this would be easier to accept. But he's not Mike Babcock. He's a middling coach who was mediocre in his first run with us and drummed out of Pittsburgh after they concluded that, despite a stacked roster, they could not win with him. The name of PK Subban will endure long after all memory of Therrien has faded from the minds of hockey fans; he's basically a nobody.

I'm sure PK will do what he's always done, i.e., quietly swallow his medicine, file it away in his memory, and keep being awesome. But I'll tell you one thing - Patrick Roy wouldn't have tolerated the analogous treatment from a nothing like Therrien. If we're looking at a battle between the best position player we have had since Guy Lafleur and Michel Therrien, there should be ZERO doubt as to whose side every last Habs fan should be on.

PK didn't just take a bad penalty in isolation.... This was a game where the mighty PK played so lazily that Boullion was our most dangerous threat on the backend and our best guy on the PP. It isn't like PK was pkaying a great game and Therrien was just mad about the penalty.

By the way, I have seen Doughty benched for an entire period, but no one mentioned it in the press or made a big deal out of it.

[brobin]

At this point, it is time to ship Bourque out. If we get a prospect for him, great, but I would take anything just to get his sorry, under performing ass off this team.

[dlbalr]

As for not pulling the goalie, that was a team message that needed to be sent. I have never seen such a lack of effort and they did nothing to suggest they were going to make a push. They barely had possession to pull the goalie. It was pointless, so he took the opportunity to send the message.

Watching that happen live, I wasn't surprised in the least. This isn't some rare occurrence, it happens to every team once or twice a year where the coach doesn't pull the goalie late to send a message to the team. If memory serves me right, one of the Habs' opponents did this exact thing a few weeks ago. There are certain times where you're down two but still have a shot. Last night wasn't one of those; it was hammered home by the fact that Montreal took a penalty shortly thereafter. I found that fitting for some reason.

[DON]

I didn't see the game, but I have watched the lowlights. Therrien benching PK is juvenile. It would make more sense to me to go to Pk after the penalty and say you need to make up for that stupidity now go take this team on your shoulders and make something happen. No instead we bench him. Cause he can score from the bench? You think he is stupid and doesn't know that he forked up? Give him the green light to go fix it. He is one of the most exciting players in the NHL and you want to staple him to the bench, to prove your the boss? Somewhere I started a thread about firing Therrien for exactly this reason, maybe it is time to dig that baby out again, cause MT has lost his mind. We need a trade (and a new coach) and we need it now. Trade Gionta and get something to help this team. Make plex the captain. Do something for crying out loud. Oh that's right we aren't a true contender yet so we have to sit and wait. FOR WHAT? If we make no moves how do we improve? OK nuff ranting.

overeaction.

PK made a hot-headed, selfish, ill advised move and sat for 10minutes, what is big freakin deal! Cant a coach coach without the torches and pitch-forks coming out?

[habs rule]

overeaction.

PK made a hot-headed, selfish, ill advised move and sat for 10minutes, what is big freakin deal! Cant a coach coach without the torches and pitch-forks coming out?

not in Montreal.

[Chris]

The roster isn't good enough to be a consistent threat night after night.

I mentioned on another post, if you think moving Bourque will somehow "fix" the habs problems your dreaming. I'm not even really a Bourque fan but when people pile on guy out of a bunch of soft floaters who play the same way as him night after night i have to stand up for him. I think he and Ginota have the same amount of goals and Bourque played half the games.

They ice:

5 hobits and 3-4 dwarfs every night.

Until they become bigger, more physical, tougher, play harder and start winning battles EVERY night they'll continue to be middle of the pack, have good days and bad days.

Changing the coach or 1 or 2 players won't matter much.

[dlbalr]

I mentioned on another post, if you think moving Bourque will somehow "fix" the habs problems your dreaming. I'm not even really a Bourque fan but when people pile on guy out of a bunch of soft floaters who play the same way as him night after night i have to stand up for him. I think he and Ginota have the same amount of goals and Bourque played half the games.

They're close in goals, Gionta leads 7-6; the captain has played 11 more games. Assists are a bit more pronounced of a difference though, Gionta has 16, Bourque 1. Gionta is 3rd in points among forwards (tied), Bourque is tied for 11th.

[Trizzak]

Nonsense. I am a huge fan of PK but he wasn't showing the kind of fired up emotion that would spark a comeback. I have seen this from him before and it is negative energy. He was far more likely to come out and take another stupid penalty then to score a goal.

People never concede that maybe, just maybe, the coaches on the bench are a better judge of the behaviour and emotional mood of their players then people watching on TV. PK has had these games where he runs around trying to get revenge for something. Maybe they felt he needed to cool down first. In any case, people are acting like he put in the press box in a close game. He wasn't, and it wasn't.

In any case, he missed a few shifts, then played over 5 minutes in the last 10 minutes. He did nothing in those ten minutes.

As for not pulling the goalie, that was a team message that needed to be sent. I have never seen such a lack of effort and they did nothing to suggest they were going to make a push. They barely had possession to pull the goalie. It was pointless, so he took the opportunity to send the message.

I agree that every point counts, which is why this team needs to wake up and get out of this funk before they follow Toronto out of a playoff spot.

overeaction.

PK made a hot-headed, selfish, ill advised move and sat for 10minutes, what is big freakin deal! Cant a coach coach without the torches and pitch-forks coming out?

You can't sit PK for 10 minutes while the rest or the team is doing nothing to help you win. PK is the only player on the team with the ability to change momentum with a single shift, and Therrien decided the team was better off without him because of ONE mistake.

Subban's PIMs this season are on pace to be the lowest of his career. Is benching after a bad penalty really the right tactic at this point?

If the question is "How can I turn this team around in the 3rd period?" the answer is never, ever "Sit Subban". (See also, "More Bouillon")

[dlbalr]

You can't sit PK for 10 minutes while the rest or the team is doing nothing to help you win. PK is the only player on the team with the ability to change momentum with a single shift, and Therrien decided the team was better off without him because of ONE mistake.

To play devil's advocate for a moment and keep the discussion going, what circumstance would be appropriate to sit him down if disciplinary actions are deemed necessary? From what you've said, you likely wouldn't want to do so when trailing and I suspect you wouldn't want him sitting out with a close lead either. That leaves blowouts and if you bench a player with a big lead or deficit, it probably doesn't drive the point home from the coaches.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Subban can be punished in practice or after the game. He doesn't have to be punished in game.

[DON]

You can't sit PK for 10 minutes while the rest or the team is doing nothing to help you win. PK is the only player on the team with the ability to change momentum with a single shift, and Therrien decided the team was better off without him because of ONE mistake.

Subban's PIMs this season are on pace to be the lowest of his career. Is benching after a bad penalty really the right tactic at this point?

If the question is "How can I turn this team around in the 3rd period?" the answer is never, ever "Sit Subban". (See also, "More Bouillon")

And how many times has Habs come back this year in 3rd period with Subban playing?

What is more important, a slim chance of winning 1 game in Jan or setting example of selfish actions being untolerated, for long term team/personnal development?

I like looking more long term and used to curse Martin for letting Cammalleri-Gomez play 20minutes/night with zero effort and no benching, so i prefer Therrian's approach and agree with the move.

I know is no clear cut right/wrong way to 'coach' , but a 10 minute benching isnt end of world.

[dlbalr]

Subban can be punished in practice or after the game. He doesn't have to be punished in game.

What type of punishment is there after a game? Get called out in the media for poor play, something that already has happened multiple times? That's about it and obviously you're not going to make him a healthy scratch. Practice punishment is also limited, you could bag skate him a bit but in terms of single-player discipline, options are limited there too. I'm not sure either would get the message across better than the in-game one does.

Also, fundamentally speaking, I don't think any player should be above in-game discipline. If you do something really stupid, you should be sat, regardless of who you are. Was Subban's penalty enough to warrant what happened? That's a bit iffy but it wouldn't be wise to put him on his own pedestal and handicap yourself in terms of getting a message across by refusing to bench him during a game.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Hmm. Well, again, I didn't see the game; my post above could well be an over-reaction. It's difficult to know how to react, because, first, Therrien's credibility isn't all that great (like I said, he's basically a generic contemporary coach, nothing special or impressive); we're in the position of having to trust the judgement of this basically disposable shmoe in handling our best asset since Roy. A second, there has been so much BS discourse around Subban (bad in his own end!! bad team player!! not good enough for Team Canada!! etc. ) - to which Therrien himself contributed while in the media - that separating a legitimate "benching" from that wider Subban-bashing discourse is hard to do.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

If you do something really stupid, you should be sat, regardless of who you are.

So you would pull Price if he over played the puck and left the net open on a goal that still keeps Montreal up 2-1 in the playoffs?

Honestly, you shouldn't be punishing players during a game regardless of who you are. The goal should be to win the game. If you feel the player's current play is going to cost the team then you sit him. Otherwise you play to win. You deal with the fallout later.

Sitting a player that can help you win a game is putting your job over the team.

[Guest Stogey24]

To play devil's advocate for a moment and keep the discussion going, what circumstance would be appropriate to sit him down if disciplinary actions are deemed necessary? From what you've said, you likely wouldn't want to do so when trailing and I suspect you wouldn't want him sitting out with a close lead either. That leaves blowouts and if you bench a player with a big lead or deficit, it probably doesn't drive the point home from the coaches.

The boys on sports net were talking about Therrien benching Subban. MacLean was saying if Subban was to sit at all for the penalty, it should had been for a shift or two. Then you put your best player back on the ice. Missing a couple shifts would let Subban know the penalty was stupid. They also said they could see Subban signing a short term deal...