GDT May 8, Boston vs Montreal, 7:30 PM

[habs rule]

No I got your point, but got to disagree and if lose in Boston, the fat lady wont be singing quite yet, odds of winning 6 and 7 is low, but no a done deal.

well lets just say she will be in final warm up stages. Get yvonne and get the pug we need the next one.

[habs rule]

The coach "le Genius" says Murray played a hell of a game. He was really happy with his play. Once again I have to question what game was he watching?

But he is probably just sticking up for his players.

[Commandant]

Expanding on my points on Beaulieu.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2014/05/09/time-come-free-beaulieu/

[xXx..CK..xXx]

The coach "le Genius" says Murray played a hell of a game. He was really happy with his play. Once again I have to question what game was he watching?

But he is probably just sticking up for his players.

Answered your own question there. I might just have my own unique perspective on things but I think that's the perfect thing to do in this situation. The Habs can definitely play better and there certainly will always be adjustments to be made but they've been doing too well these playoffs to start the blame game just because we're tied in a series. It's not the time to panic just yet. We win as a team and lose as a team and if you ask me, Bartkowski has been the worst player this series on either side so I don't think it's at all fair to single out any one player on our squad, even if it's our supposed weakest link. Therrien called out the right players without saying any names though; our stars need to be our stars.

[DON]

well lets just say she will be in final warm up stages. Get yvonne and get the pug we need the next one.

Yes, odds are they will lose, but it aint over til its over.

[dlbalr]

well lets just say she will be in final warm up stages. Get yvonne and get the pug we need the next one.

If you want the dog, you might want to post the GDT for tomorrow as Neech hasn't been around for a bit. At any rate, someone else needs to do one, I've done 9 in a row now...

[DON]

The coach "le Genius" says Murray played a hell of a game. He was really happy with his play. Once again I have to question what game was he watching?

But he is probably just sticking up for his players.

Same game as this Boston Globe writer it seems.

" Fraser’s game-winner, one of the very few times all night when the Bruins maintained puck pressure and saw the Habs collapse around Price."

Again, Murray aint gonna score (although I keep waiting for his 1st as a Hab), so whether Bouillon-Murray-Tinordi are in, would it of helped Habs score and still keep a shutout through 60 minutes?

Did Murray have anything to do with 67-20-51 not getting shots?

Didn't seem to affect Gionta-Markov-Bournival who had lots of shots, but Rask is a darn good goalie and if don't have top scorers scoring will be hard pressed to win consistently. Weise likely hasn't got many more game winners in him.

[Commandant]

Same game as this Boston Globe writer it seems.

" Fraser’s game-winner, one of the very few times all night when the Bruins maintained puck pressure and saw the Habs collapse around Price."

Again, Murray aint gonna score (although I keep waiting for his 1st as a Hab), so whether Bouillon-Murray-Tinordi are in, would it of helped Habs score and still keep a shutout through 60 minutes?

Did Murray have anything to do with 67-20-51 not getting shots?

Didn't seem to affect Gionta-Markov-Bournival who had lots of shots, but Rask is a darn good goalie and if don't have top scorers scoring will be hard pressed to win consistently. Weise likely hasn't got many more game winners in him.

Did Murray have something to do with Pacioretty not getting shots? Yes actually he did.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/canadiens-playoffs-2014/2014/5/9/5700104/douglas-murray-not-an-nhl-player-canadiens-playoffs-2014

Generating just five scoring chances while Pacioretty is on the ice at even strength is pretty bad, there were tons of games this season where he generated that many on his own in a single game, but looking closer, you can see that while he's on the ice with P.K. Subban and Josh Gorges, 100% of the scoring chances belong to the Canadiens. While on with Andrei Markov and Alexei Emelin, it's essentially dead even, and with Murray on, the top line has generated a whopping ZERO scoring chances.

And what's worse, is that Pacioretty is clearly being used more often away from Subban in order to boost the offensive impact of the other two pairings, especially Murray, who was on the ice for 34.3% of Pacioretty's even strength ice time, or put more dramatically, Pacioretty was on the ice for 48.2% of Murray's even strength ice time.

[habs rule]

If you want the dog, you might want to post the GDT for tomorrow as Neech hasn't been around for a bit. At any rate, someone else needs to do one, I've done 9 in a row now...

and very well I might add. thanks brian

[habs rule]

Did Murray have something to do with Pacioretty not getting shots? Yes actually he did.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/canadiens-playoffs-2014/2014/5/9/5700104/douglas-murray-not-an-nhl-player-canadiens-playoffs-2014

OMG now its Murray's fault that Patches is in a slump. Hang the batard from the yardarm. But first he must be flogged.

[hab29RETIRED]

100% in favour of making the switch for Beaulieu - I was calling for the change for game 3 and 4.

But disagree that Bouillon would be a better choice. My next puck over Boyllian and Murrey would be Tinordi.

I still don't buy into COSRSI/FENWICK though - I still recall EOTP going on about Gomez's great advanced stat.

Watching Murrey and seeing the Hans hemmed in our zone - even against the bruins 4th line is enough for me. Having chasing after bruins for a hit, has us playing the bruins game, instead of making use of speed.

I don't even see the point of him getting 6 hits, if most of those hits are against slugs. It be something else if he was vondtantly hammering Bergeron or krejki.

As far as shot blocking- Denis pot in said it best, if you are blocking shots, it means you aren't transitioning and doing your job getting the puck off the ice. He also said he was taught to never leave his feet, because it meant he would be out of position and unable to move the puck forward.

Expanding on my points on Beaulieu.

http://lastwordonsports.com/2014/05/09/time-come-free-beaulieu/

I stopped reading EOTP a LONG time ago - about the time they would be going on about Gomez.

OMG now its Murray's fault that Patches is in a slump. Hang the batard from the yardarm. But first he must be flogged.

[Commandant]

So because advanced stats were wrong about Scott Gomez that means they are wrong about every other player?

Again, they aren't the be all and end all, and sometimes they can be wrong, but they are a pretty good guide that can definitely help in scouting.

Teams that have admitted that they use advanced stats to help them in scouting - Chicago, St. Louis, San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim

Teams that have said that they don't believe in advanced stats- Toronto, Calgary,

Hmmmmm..... wonder what group is doing better in recent years....

[hab29RETIRED]

So because advanced stats were wrong about Scott Gomez that means they are wrong about every other player?

Again, they aren't the be all and end all, and sometimes they can be wrong, but they are a pretty good guide that can definitely help in scouting.

Teams that have admitted that they use advanced stats to help them in scouting - Chicago, St. Louis, San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim

Teams that have said that they don't believe in advanced stats- Toronto, Calgary,

Hmmmmm..... wonder what group is doing better in recent years....

Calgary said that AFTER Burke took over. And of course Burke's previous team was Toronto. I don't see Detroit at the forefront of advanced stats and MB came from Chicago and I don't see him being influenced by advanced stats, otherwise he probably wouldn't have signed Murrey.

I'll take what I see over what the stats say. This isn't baseball, where you can take a guy's individual stats in isolation. The fact that advance stats guys throw advanced stats as an argument that Gomez isn't as bad as he looks is a sign that the stats are flawed.

I didn't need CORSI/Fenwick or any other stats to know that Murrey isn't who i'd want as anything more than a 7th dman and definatley not someone i'd play over a tinordi or Beaulieu.

I don't need advanced stats to tell me that I'd prefer a guy who can move the puck and skate, over a guy who spends a lot of time shot blocking and hits like an elephant, but also skates like an elephant.

IMO the ice time PK got in game 4 (not enough) versus the time that Murrey got have me wonder about MT's sanity. His comments after the game about Murrey removed all doubt.

I have never liked Julian, but he is playing guys like Hamilton/Krugg and that rookie he scored the game winner. MT on the other hand is playing the style of the old bruins - stressing physicality over skill. In the 70's the habs beat the big tough flyers, not by getting guys who were necessarily tougher than the flyers, but by getting guys who were better than the flyers, but also tough.

[habs rule]

I have never liked Julian, but he is playing guys like Hamilton/Krugg and that rookie he scored the game winner. MT on the other hand is playing the style of the old bruins - stressing physicality over skill. In the 70's the habs beat the big tough flyers, not by getting guys who were necessarily tougher than the flyers, but by getting guys who were better than the flyers, but also tough.

I remember an old Freddy Shero quote when asked by a reporter why the Fluffers tactics didn't work against the habs, Well for crying out loud they are all over 6 ft tall and tough as nails or something like that. I may have used some editorial licence but that was the essence. The habs could out fight and out play any team in the league. God I did love those days.

[DON]

I remember an old Freddy Shero quote when asked by a reporter why the Fluffers tactics didn't work against the habs, Well for crying out loud they are all over 6 ft tall and tough as nails or something like that. I may have used some editorial licence but that was the essence. The habs could out fight and out play any team in the league. God I did love those days.

Having core group of players like #29, 5, 18, 19, 10, 12, 23, 14 didnt hurt.

Lapointe, Big Bird, Nilan, Gilles Lupien, Pierre Bouchard, Kordic etc and Jay Miller, Stan Jonathan, Terry ORielly, Cashman etc kept things very entertaining way back when, in a Slapshot sort of way.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Habs29, is Therrien really a grave problem here? Could this team really be getting vastly better results than it is? Let's be serious. The Habs are giving us a hell of a run and everyone involved deserves credit, including MT.

Similarly, the idea that we're losing because of Murray just overlooks the forest for the trees IMHO.

Like I keep saying, I'd happily put Beaulieu in, but I still think the parallel with Krug et al. is faulty. Just because some other team's rookies are thriving doesn't mean ours would. It's player- and context-dependent. In particular, it is easier to insert a rookie defenceman into a Cup-winning, league-leading lineup because the guy is supremely well surrounded. But beyond that, Tinordi is not necessarily analogous to Hamilton, or Beaulieu to Krug. They're different guys with different issues and different stages of development. MT is willing to play rookies; he's played Bournival, and last season he played the heck out of Gallagher and Galchenyuk.

Let's keep our eyes on the big picture here. The team is doing as well as can be reasonably expected. The series is tied and it's a best of three. The odds are against us, but it's not some insuperable long-shot. This is FUN - let's enjoy it!!

[hab29RETIRED]

I think our top 4 on D is just as good and probably better than the bruins.

The bruins are trying to take more of the Habs approach to their D, while we are taking the bruins approach. Watching Murrey run around last game in that one shift chasing bruins trying to make the big hit (made 2 and missed on 1), had me holding my breath waiting for a bruin to be left open or a bounce go against us. The crowd cheered and loved the hits, but it was the kind of play that had me on edge everytime he was on the ice. Subban regularly gets benched for going for the big hit. Murrey ran around in our own zone the ENTIRE shift trying to make hits!! That meant the bruins had possession the whole time - and MT praised him!! So yes, I have a problem with that. In a game where we only had 2 penalties, it's ridiculous that Murrey got as much ice time as he did - that us in the coach.

The amount of ice time Murrey got was a mistake. Playing him over a kid who can has the potential to be a difference maker - like Subban was on our last run, is a mistake.

With the vanek trade and the surprise of Weisse's play, I really don't think the bruins are that much better than us, IF we ice our best players and run with our best players. Subban should be paying an extra couple of minutes a game. MT made the right move in sitting Prust, in favour of Bournival. He needs to do the same with Murrey/Bouillon.

Habs29, is Therrien really a grave problem here? Could this team really be getting vastly better results than it is? Let's be serious. The Habs are giving us a hell of a run and everyone involved deserves credit, including MT.

Similarly, the idea that we're losing because of Murray just overlooks the forest for the trees IMHO.

Like I keep saying, I'd happily put Beaulieu in, but I still think the parallel with Krug et al. is faulty. Just because some other team's rookies are thriving doesn't mean ours would. It's player- and context-dependent. In particular, it is easier to insert a rookie defenceman into a Cup-winning, league-leading lineup because the guy is supremely well surrounded. But beyond that, Tinordi is not necessarily analogous to Hamilton, or Beaulieu to Krug. They're different guys with different issues and different stages of development. MT is willing to play rookies; he's played Bournival, and last season he played the heck out of Gallagher and Galchenyuk.

Let's keep our eyes on the big picture here. The team is doing as well as can be reasonably expected. The series is tied and it's a best of three. The odds are against us, but it's not some insuperable long-shot. This is FUN - let's enjoy it!!

[Commandant]

Calgary said that AFTER Burke took over. And of course Burke's previous team was Toronto. I don't see Detroit at the forefront of advanced stats and MB came from Chicago and I don't see him being influenced by advanced stats, otherwise he probably wouldn't have signed Murrey.

I'll take what I see over what the stats say. This isn't baseball, where you can take a guy's individual stats in isolation. The fact that advance stats guys throw advanced stats as an argument that Gomez isn't as bad as he looks is a sign that the stats are flawed.

I didn't need CORSI/Fenwick or any other stats to know that Murrey isn't who i'd want as anything more than a 7th dman and definatley not someone i'd play over a tinordi or Beaulieu.

I don't need advanced stats to tell me that I'd prefer a guy who can move the puck and skate, over a guy who spends a lot of time shot blocking and hits like an elephant, but also skates like an elephant.

IMO the ice time PK got in game 4 (not enough) versus the time that Murrey got have me wonder about MT's sanity. His comments after the game about Murrey removed all doubt.

I have never liked Julian, but he is playing guys like Hamilton/Krugg and that rookie he scored the game winner. MT on the other hand is playing the style of the old bruins - stressing physicality over skill. In the 70's the habs beat the big tough flyers, not by getting guys who were necessarily tougher than the flyers, but by getting guys who were better than the flyers, but also tough.

No one has ever said that they have stopped watching players and only use advanced stats. Thats such a straw-man argument.

They are a tool that help give more context.

As for Bergevin, I still bet he is using the stats, but when Emelin was injured he needed a big hitter and Murray was the only one left... he didn't give him a long-term deal or big money.

If there is a tool out there that can help (not replace but help) what you are doing in scouting, you'd be stupid as a GM not to take a look at it.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

This article by Cam Charron set back advanced stats ten years.

http://theleafsnation.com/2012/1/26/is-scott-gomez-hockeys-most-underrated-yes

"He may not have talents appreciated in Montreal or by fans around the NHL who may be too caught up in hollow statistics such as goals or assists..."

I think some writers harp on them to excess because they are either blowhards (Berkshire) or aren't good writers and have little to bring to the table. (Charron).

If you have a hockey blog, you would be remiss not to include some advanced stats analysis. If nothing more than a competitive edge, the msm has all you would ever need for game recaps etc.

[habs rule]

This article by Cam Charron set back advanced stats ten years.

http://theleafsnation.com/2012/1/26/is-scott-gomez-hockeys-most-underrated-yes

"He may not have talents appreciated in Montreal or by fans around the NHL who may be too caught up in hollow statistics such as goals or assists..."

I think some writers harp on them to excess because they are either blowhards (Berkshire) or aren't good writers and have little to bring to the table. (Charron).

If you have a hockey blog, you would be remiss not to include some advanced stats analysis. If nothing more than a competitive edge, the msm has all you would ever need for game recaps etc.

That article is priceless. I am not a stats guy but I must say I love this line..."hollow statistics such as goals or assists that don't paint a full picture"

Right lets don't worry about goals and assists we have corsi and fenwick that is how you win games. Really? I always thought that if we scored more goals than they did we would win, now I find out goals are a "hollow statistic" hmmm makes you wonder. Of course he was trying to defend Scott Gomez and that is one tough assignment.

[DON]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Paul-Stewart/Lucy-Tell-Your-Statistics-to-Shut-Up-AKA-Ref-Ana8230/196/59952

[habs rule]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Paul-Stewart/Lucy-Tell-Your-Statistics-to-Shut-Up-AKA-Ref-Ana8230/196/59952

yeah I read that, It is a great article.

[DON]

yeah I read that, It is a great article.

A bit of other side of corsi-stuff argument, one for us of closed minds.

But, advanced stats crowd were as hard on Therrien-Bergevin till end of year as well and I kept saying, look at standings-win/loss record and was told.... just lucky, Habs will fade, look at this chart or that stat and are being out-coached badly, making idiotic roster choices and made stupid signings, Berkshire argued (like a teenager) that he was first to call a Hab demise and team was gonna be driven into the ground....just watch!

But, at least they have mostly shut-up about Mgmt and now have a raging hard-** for a low paid #6/7 d-man, because there is nothing of importance to complain about. When if anything, it would be the high paid offensive guys that need a tiny bit of criticism (not that anyone is doing terrible and as Max said he scored a few games ago, Vanek has 6pts in 8 games and are at 2-2, so could be much worse).

If the advanced stat proponents just spent 1/2 as much effort pointing out positives, that crowd may not seem to be so bitter and angry all the time and might be easier to stomach.

I am sure Plekanec, Weaver, Price, or Gionta must have some super advanced stat or other to tout; but, no it is how f'in horrible Bouillon-Murray are and we will spend hours on charts to show just how bad, and they still call themselves HabFans, but hate the coach-GM-low paid players and almost seem irritated that Habs are still playing, simply out of spite, because Therrien wont get fired if team does well.

[habs rule]

A bit of other side of corsi-stuff argument, one for us of closed minds.

But, advanced stats crowd were as hard on Therrien-Bergevin till end of year as well and I kept saying, look at standings-win/loss record and was told.... just lucky, Habs will fade, look at this chart or that stat and are being out-coached badly, making idiotic roster choices and made stupid signings, Berkshire argued (like a teenager) that he was first to call a Hab demise and team was gonna be driven into the ground....just watch!

But, at least they have mostly shut-up about Mgmt and now have a raging hard-** for a low paid #6/7 d-man, because there is nothing of importance to complain about. When if anything, it would be the high paid offensive guys that need a tiny bit of criticism (not that anyone is doing terrible and as Max said he scored a few games ago, Vanek has 6pts in 8 games and are at 2-2, so could be much worse).

If the advanced stat proponents just spent 1/2 as much effort pointing out positives, that crowd may not seem to be so bitter and angry all the time and might be easier to stomach.

I am sure Plekanec, Weaver, Price, or Gionta must have some super advanced stat or other to tout; but, no it is how f'in horrible Bouillon-Murray are and we will spend hours on charts to show just how bad, and they still call themselves HabFans, but hate the coach-GM-low paid players and almost seem irritated that Habs are still playing, simply out of spite, because Therrien wont get fired if team does well.

That Corsi Fenwick crap is just that in my oppinion and Paul's article really says it well. Sometimes we just overthink things. As you know I don't agree with everything MT has done. MB on the other hand has done an outstanding job backed up by the brain trust that he has assembled. Murray isn't the best defenceman in the league but he does add a physical presence Boo Boo can't. Let's just go score more goals than they do and we will be fine.