Lovett's Magnatones Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Little off topic and I know most are against bringing in a heavy weight, but what happens when Colton Orr starts taking runs again when were up 5-0 in a game? I'm pretty surprised that void hasn't been filled in our line up. The same old same old. People in the hockey world will decry "goonery" and the players will be intimidated and embarrassed. Meanwhile, in a game against Philly/Boston/Toronto we'll have some chili-hot fourth liner like Bournival forecheck like crazy and get 1 shot instead of playing a heavyweight who can help control the victimizing behaviors this team has faced since the Zednik clothesline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 I am sure Orr would drop em with Gonta, give me a break and was taking a penalty with hut on Plekanec, even DD could take out a player with hit to knee , don't need a useless 3 shift goon. That's not me playing out a scenario, this is what happened two years ago after our one fighter(Prust) was ejected from the game. Orr grew a set and started taking runs because there was no repercussions. Gorges ended up having to fight Mcclarren.... recipe for disaster.The same old same old. People in the hockey world will decry "goonery" and the players will be intimidated and embarrassed. Meanwhile, in a game against Philly/Boston/Toronto we'll have some chili-hot fourth liner like Bournival forecheck like crazy and get 1 shot instead of playing a heavyweight who can help control the victimizing behaviors this team has faced since the Zednik clothesline. As crazy as it sounds, its absolutely true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Absolutely agree with LM and Stogey, there are certain times you need it, vs certain teams. It's not necessary every game, but it's insurance against teams that play that way, it's just naïve to think it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Absolutely agree with LM and Stogey, there are certain times you need it, vs certain teams. It's not necessary every game, but it's insurance against teams that play that way, it's just naïve to think it's not. Totally agreed--- Is the landscape changing- probably--- in my humble opinion we are going in a tad light in the "grit" department. However, it is irrelevant what I think. MB thinking is what matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Nobody ever has to fight. Gorges was an idiot for trying. Stupid Canadian pride. Either turtle or slash him with your stick. If McLaren found himself in the hospital because he tried to fight Gorges and got a stick to the throat for his effort, you damn sure wouldn't see anyone trying to throw punches anymore. But everyone wants to continue assuming fighting isn't a penalty and an illegal part of hockey. I was hoping Kessel would have swung high on John Scott when he pulled his crap. Would have put the goon discussion to bed if Scott was laying on the ice bleeding from trying to fight a guy 50lbs less than him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Nobody ever has to fight. Gorges was an idiot for trying. Stupid Canadian pride. Either turtle or slash him with your stick. If McLaren found himself in the hospital because he tried to fight Gorges and got a stick to the throat for his effort, you damn sure wouldn't see anyone trying to throw punches anymore. But everyone wants to continue assuming fighting isn't a penalty and an illegal part of hockey. I was hoping Kessel would have swung high on John Scott when he pulled his crap. Would have put the goon discussion to bed if Scott was laying on the ice bleeding from trying to fight a guy 50lbs less than him. OK, lets not fight, but instead we'll two hand a guy in the face with our stick. Gorges is a team guy and 9 out 10 times that team guy will drop his gloves when they feel it's necessary. Would you rather he just stand there after his teammate gets run then another knocked out? Imama was only at camp because he can fight... but you still favour him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 You realise the only reason your "favourite player" Imama was at camp is because he can fight... That's kind of a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 That's kind of a joke I know, I'm just saying there is a reason why teams still have goons around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 I know, I'm just saying there is a reason why teams still have goons around. It's the same reason some work computers still have a floppy disk drive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 People can say what they want about goons, but that's just their personal opinion. The game has been played the same way for 100 years. I don't remember any nonsense happening when Parros was on the ice vs the Laffs/Bruins/Flyers? To me, the question isn't if the goon is a good hockey player, they definitely aren't, but what are you going to get out of a number 6/7 or a fourth line winger? A couple of shots? I wouldn't be surprised, like Dlbalr mentioned, if Crisp or Nevins get an extended look during trainig camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Whatever our own opinion is, it's Bergy's that matters. And I cannot believe that he went from being a firm believer in goons in 2013 to feeling we don't need any at all in 2014. Sure, the Parros experiment was a disaster, but that's because the guy fell on his face - hardly sufficient reason to switch philosophies. So count me among those surprised to think that Zoot Suit suddenly now feels that a broken-down Prust, an increasingly vulnerable Moen, and the odd tilt from Weise is sufficient policing out there. My guess is a goon will materialize sometime during the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 The pure goon is useless. You don't need to put a pugilist in uniform just so he can throw punches. What I want to know is what happened to the semi-talented goons of the 80's and 90's? These were guys you might actually put on the ice to kill a penalty, or in rare cases as a 6th attacker with the net empty. Guys like Probert, McSorley, Odelein, heck even Tie Domi. The problem with "players" like George Parros or Colton Orr is they are just goons, they aren't hockey players. I want to see Odelein's 40 points and 250 penalty minutes again. They don't seem to make players like that anymore...if they have the slightest bit of talent, they stop fighting. (Okay, there's Lucic. Are there any that aren't also self-entitled neanderthal morons?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (Okay, there's Lucic. Are there any that aren't also self-entitled neanderthal morons?) There's Wayne Simmonds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Price (no relation) Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 There's Wayne Simmonds Oh damn. I want him in Montreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Oh damn. I want him in Montreal. Yeah me to he put up 60 pts last year and had 6 fights most of which he won. However he is signed in philly till 2018 or 2019 so we don't have much hope of getting him. But we can dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 The pure goon is useless. You don't need to put a pugilist in uniform just so he can throw punches. What I want to know is what happened to the semi-talented goons of the 80's and 90's? These were guys you might actually put on the ice to kill a penalty, or in rare cases as a 6th attacker with the net empty. Guys like Probert, McSorley, Odelein, heck even Tie Domi. The problem with "players" like George Parros or Colton Orr is they are just goons, they aren't hockey players. I want to see Odelein's 40 points and 250 penalty minutes again. They don't seem to make players like that anymore...if they have the slightest bit of talent, they stop fighting. (Okay, there's Lucic. Are there any that aren't also self-entitled neanderthal morons?) Boston have a few of them (Boychuck, Campbell, McQuaid), I guess we could throw some others in there : Downie, Hartnell, McLeod, Dorsett, Ott, Neil, Roussel, etc... but hey are 10pts-20pts players, not 40 (except Hartnell). One thing that we often overlook is how much the talent level increased since the good old days of Odelein. Not sure that Odelein would have the impact he once had if he was playing 2010's hockey... No more hooking (or at least 90% less hooking), holding, shoveling, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 OK, lets not fight, but instead we'll two hand a guy in the face with our stick. Gorges is a team guy and 9 out 10 times that team guy will drop his gloves when they feel it's necessary. Would you rather he just stand there after his teammate gets run then another knocked out? Imama was only at camp because he can fight... but you still favour him... If it is Bourque getting smacked, that is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 how quickly we forget..bourque was a top forward in the post season. i'd say top 3. what did he do to you anyway..take your sons spot on the roster? wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 I think Bourque's inconsistency has a lot to do with the concussions he's had. At times he shows brilliance and other times he is lost out there. He was sucker punched just because he was on the ice facing goons, and had to hold on to someone. Not his choice to fight, and not a chance to avoid it, and a severe, career threatening injury happens, and a torn out knee by say Markov because he has to wrestle some goonish type idiot on the Bruins, Leafs or Sens is hard to swallow. Especially when that goon won't run around so freely taking liberties. Don, you should know this by now, that hockey isn't going to be fight free for a while, and it will never stop having an intimidation factor in it either, go watch tennis man... I agree that you cannot saturate your lineup with no talent, goon only players, and you can beat thug teams with speed and skill, but can you always do it? in playoffs? Nope, physical play wins it's fair share. And what about after the whistle when skill is useless? Too many times we had all 5 guys getting roughed up after whistle's etc. It makes a huge difference if next shift your coach can put some grit or craziness out there, just to keep the respek.... these situations where a guy like Neil in Ottawa will run everyone out there with intent to injure need to be mitigated by someone like Prust or similar, and there's no two ways around the fact that you need grit, and a scrapper or two on an NHL roster.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 I think Bourque's inconsistency has a lot to do with the concussions he's had. At times he shows brilliance and other times he is lost out there. He was sucker punched just because he was on the ice facing goons, and had to hold on to someone. Not his choice to fight, and not a chance to avoid it, and a severe, career threatening injury happens, and a torn out knee by say Markov because he has to wrestle some goonish type idiot on the Bruins, Leafs or Sens is hard to swallow. Especially when that goon won't run around so freely taking liberties.Don, you should know this by now, that hockey isn't going to be fight free for a while, and it will never stop having an intimidation factor in it either, go watch tennis man...I agree that you cannot saturate your lineup with no talent, goon only players, and you can beat thug teams with speed and skill, but can you always do it? in playoffs? Nope, physical play wins it's fair share.And what about after the whistle when skill is useless?Too many times we had all 5 guys getting roughed up after whistle's etc. It makes a huge difference if next shift your coach can put some grit or craziness out there, just to keep the respek.... these situations where a guy like Neil in Ottawa will run everyone out there with intent to injure need to be mitigated by someone like Prust or similar, and there's no two ways around the fact that you need grit, and a scrapper or two on an NHL roster.... The one thing we can hope for is Tinordi turning into a heavy weight this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 The one thing we can hope for is Tinordi turning into a heavy weight this year. I bet Tinordi makes the team just because of his size and grit. He'll learn nothing from Lefever down in Hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Neil, Lucic, Moan, Prust can actually play hockey, Orr Parros Shelley Scott are childish bullies on skates, which many here seem to be fond of. I don't mind woman's tennis one bit. Got nothing against tough physical hockey neither, but more of Messier steamrolling opponents type of play and once you see 10,000 fights, the 30 second bit by the wrestling-clowns gets old and if you don't think is bush-league and detrimental to a pretty good sport your deluding yourself, or still an immature teenager. I know WWF and NHL owners love gimmicky bloody bouts, it sells (real/fake blood don't matter), is entertainment business and puts more $ in their pockets and therefore I know it is going no where anytime soon; but don't mean I got to agree with nor support it at all, I seriously don't even watch fights anymore. But to dress an Orr/McLaren hasn't paid off well for Leafs has it, nor stopped Goons going after lil stick swinging Kessel. I knew a couple who used to attend WHL games and were hockey fans, but would actually stand up and loudly boo fights. They got some funny looks from the red necks rowdy locals, who were always just speechless, was so humorous it was worth price of admission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I think the question of whether you like hockey fights is different from the question of whether having policemen on your team helps you to win games. Sometimes the distinction is lost in these arguments. Personally, I've shifted my position over the years from being fervently pro-fighting to being pretty uncomfortable about it (mostly due to the concussion issue, which I simply can't look past). But I'm totally agnostic on the issue of whether, in an environment in which fighting is still allowed, teams need fighters and/or goons. The case for it, to me, is that we so often hear Habs players talking about how much safer they feel out there whenever the Habs acquire a legitimate tough guy. If they're being sincere, then that's no small consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Pussies, why don't they all just man-up! Royce Gracie was only 180lbs and demolished huge guys, even Smurf-Hobbit Gallagher is that heavy, they all just got to get that "Dave's a Killer" mentality to kick ass and wont need a policeman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Pussies, why don't they all just man-up! Royce Gracie was only 180lbs and demolished huge guys, even Smurf-Hobbit Gallagher is that heavy, they all just got to get that "Dave's a Killer" mentality to kick ass and wont need a policeman. So Don just to clarify, Wayne Simmonds is not on your team? Cause he goona fight when necasary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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