Guest Stogey24 Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Chicago developed a lot of their key guys with the big team. There wasn't this yo-yo where the player didn't get into the rythmn of the NHL or AHL game (a coach like Lefebve also doesn't help). Last year, Tinordi should have been a viable option fit the playoffs, but because he was buried in Hamilton and than the press box for so long, you really couldn't throw him in. It would have been better to work with Tinordi during the year, so he is prepared and us aviable option in the playoffs. Playing a grunt like Murray was a waste of time. He was useless during the year and the playoffs. Now we are seeing s repeat with Allen and Gilbert. I agree. These kids are scared to make a mistake because its like buying a ticket back to Hamilton. Its impossible to gain confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 If they are playing scared, they better get their resume tuned up for some other career then and will never bump Gilbert/Allen/Weaver types. Heard same foolishness with Leblanc and d-men take longer to learn and develop. These arnt babies or little kids were talking about, if they want to sulk, pout, whine... so what.........suck it up buttercup! Did Gilbert start crying when waived/bought out......NO he worked hard, proved he can play well, had good year and deserved another NHL contract. And I still do not mind him on team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I guess, but it's hard to play your game when your expected to play a perfect game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 No not perfect, but you do recall Beaulieu braincramp on dumb turnover and Tinordi also has had some 'shakey' play and appeared to be too tentative (but HIM I would have had on my roster every game since last March, but easy for me to say that 4000km from Belle centre and just spitballin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Gonchar-Allen-Weaver-Gilbert or GAWG...make our defense GAWG AWFUL!! I think that I'm starting to lose faith in Coach T as well 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Hey, Gonchar has been a nice addition IMHO. Weaver and Allen are 6th defencemen at best. Gilbert is Gilbert - more proof that guys who look relatively good on Florida's blueline get somewhat exposed when they start playing for a real franchise (c.f. Vancouver's disastrous experience with Keith Ballard). I think the real problem with the D is less the 6th defenceman on any given night, and more that (1) PK Subban and Emelin are having so-so seasons; it's looking more and more like Emelin's strong 2012-13 was a bit of a high water-mark; and (2) that Gilbert is not quite as trusty a minutes-eater as Zoot Suit probably hoped. In other words, look to top-4 defenders rather than the #6 guy if you've got troubles on the blueline. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 An issue I've noticed is that both Subban and Markov are playing #1 minutes. Last night Subban played almost thirty minutes and Markov played 26. Two guys playing almost half the game isn't going to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 our #3-7 D are brutal. Yes, Emelin too..he's a 3rd pairing guy...with Gilbert. Our main issue on D is that we don't have a legit #3 or #4. Are they in Hamilton? idk, I guess we're not allowed to find out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 An issue I've noticed is that both Subban and Markov are playing #1 minutes. Last night Subban played almost thirty minutes and Markov played 26. Two guys playing almost half the game isn't going to work. Last night they had just 5 d-men for almost the entire game. Everyone's minutes were up a fair bit as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Last night they had just 5 d-men for almost the entire game. Everyone's minutes were up a fair bit as a result. Yeah, the Dallas game should not really be used as an indicator of much. Tired team, coming off a very disappointing and demoralizing loss, down to 5 defenceman after a brutal hit - not the sort of scenario from which to draw definitive conclusions. How they bounce back on the coming home stand will, to me, be much more indicative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 No not perfect, but you do recall Beaulieu braincramp on dumb turnover and Tinordi also has had some 'shakey' play and appeared to be too tentative (but HIM I would have had on my roster every game since last March, but easy for me to say that 4000km from Belle centre and just spitballin) so does every hab on the team...............you have to forgive the rookies mistakes they same way you forgive vetrens. thehabs bottom five are so lame its a joke that the two kids are told you just are not playing well enough. look around the league at all the young d playing their way through all that. Canadiens still thinking this is the team that had robinson, chelly, green, ludwig, svoboda, ...................the habs should be good enough that they are cutting gilbert, laughing at the thought of aquiring gonchar, passing on allen and weaver in press box........developing the young talent they have for 015 and 016.................they aint winning the cup with this stiffs anyways..............and they were actually better when the two kids were here on the team pre gonchar / allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 thehabs bottom five are so lame its a joke that the two kids are told you just are not playing well enough. look around the league at all the young d playing their way through all that. There's lots of young defencemen playing their way through it in the minors too. There's no set rule that says all young defencemen must play in the NHL by a certain point in their ELC. There are different playing styles, development curves, different parent team situations (roster space and philosophies), etc that get considered. The Habs are far from the only team to have quality young defencemen in the AHL and not on the NHL roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 NHL GP for defencemen taken in the 1st round of the 2010 draft (Tinordi): 3) Erik Gudbranson - 194 (made the NHL at 19) 10) Dylan McIlrath - 3 15) Derek Forbort - 0 22) Jarred Tinordi - 39 23) Mark Pysyk - 63 (0 this year and he's on the Sabres...) It's not like all the other d-men in that draft class are established NHL'ers already, Gudbranson - a top-3 pick - aside. NHL GP for defencemen taken in the 1st round of the 2011 draft (Beaulieu): 4) Adam Larsson - 145 (a frequent healthy scratch and by all accounts, was rushed to the NHL at 18) 9) Dougie Hamilton - 134 10) Jonas Brodin - 140 11) Duncan Siemens - 0 12) Ryan Murphy - 58 14) Jamie Oleksiak - 43 17) Nathan Beaulieu - 37 19) Oscar Klefbom - 23 20) Connor Murphy - 56 23) Joe Morrow - 15 25) Stuart Percy - 8 Yes, the top three picks are regulars but they're top-10 picks, they're supposed to be in the NHL quicker. All the rest aren't established regulars, they're players who are up and down with their respective NHL clubs. Top picks play quicker than mid-first round picks. Those players often need a few years in the minors. It's not just Montreal doing that, it's league wide. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 nice work sir, put em into context Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 How many of these similar draft year defensemen are playing behind an old, slow, soft defense corp? none of them. might as well call em up and take the beatings with the kids (the same ones that we're currently taking, btw) atleast they'll be getting the experience and will be that much better next year. why do we assume that one more year in the minors will help? they may need another 60+ games at the start of '15 to become bonafide nhlers. why not give em that this season? let's face it folks, we're not going to win jack shit with our d. we've got a #1, #2, #5, #6..then 3 #7's. everybody is calling for a true #1 center, however, we may be in more need of a #3 + #4 D instead. Although I would like to see DD go, but I digress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Seems common sense, they are top d-men playing big minutes, at 1/2 step slower pace than NHL, they mostly play on weekends and can practice lots through week and work on fine tuning their games weaknesses with coaches. Neither will get weaker with another year in gym during off-season. Whereas in NHL, they travel all over North America, don't practice as much nor have time for development-type coaching and neither can fill a top 4 role yet so will play reduced minutes with time in pressbox also. And when blow a game, you don't have millions of critics picking apart your deficiencies when gaffs are shown on Sportscentre over and over. Beaulieu routinely gave up SH breakaways trying spinaramas and low % fancy plays, which would of got him demoted from big club, so isn't that better let him work on decision making at touch slower pace and risk of HabFans 'turning on him' a la OByrne. NHL is billion dollar business, AHL is a farm system primarily for development of prospects and wins/losses are secondary importance. Nice to win Calder cup but if NHL team has several injures and need to gut farm team, they wont think twice about indirectly sabotaging a AHL championship run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 How many of these similar draft year defensemen are playing behind an old, slow, soft defense corp? none of them. Behind old, slow defence corps? Maybe not many considering it's a somewhat loaded question given that the Habs have the oldest D. Playing behind career journeymen and veteran AHL 'tweeners'? Quite a few of the non-regulars on this list are behind some of those on their respective teams' depth chart. Some examples: Mark Pysyk (BUF) is behind former Hamilton Bulldog Andre Benoit. Ryan Murphy (CAR) is behind Brett Bellemore and several players who couldn't crack Toronto in past years. Dylan McIlrath (NYR) is behind Matt Hunwick and Mike Kostka, both mediocre-at-best NHL d-men. Oscar Klefbom (EDM) can't crack an Edmonton lineup that is inept in its own end. There are other examples too, these are just a few. It's not just the Habs who don't put their young D in the NHL as soon as possible...and at least the veterans that are ahead of Beaulieu/Tinordi in Montreal are NHL regulars, not like the ones above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronthab Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 NHL GP for defencemen taken in the 1st round of the 2010 draft (Tinordi): 3) Erik Gudbranson - 194 (made the NHL at 19) 10) Dylan McIlrath - 3 15) Derek Forbort - 0 22) Jarred Tinordi - 39 23) Mark Pysyk - 63 (0 this year and he's on the Sabres...) It's not like all the other d-men in that draft class are established NHL'ers already, Gudbranson - a top-3 pick - aside. NHL GP for defencemen taken in the 1st round of the 2011 draft (Beaulieu): 4) Adam Larsson - 145 (a frequent healthy scratch and by all accounts, was rushed to the NHL at 18) 9) Dougie Hamilton - 134 10) Jonas Brodin - 140 11) Duncan Siemens - 0 12) Ryan Murphy - 58 14) Jamie Oleksiak - 43 17) Nathan Beaulieu - 37 19) Oscar Klefbom - 23 20) Connor Murphy - 56 23) Joe Morrow - 15 25) Stuart Percy - 8 Yes, the top three picks are regulars but they're top-10 picks, they're supposed to be in the NHL quicker. All the rest aren't established regulars, they're players who are up and down with their respective NHL clubs. Top picks play quicker than mid-first round picks. Those players often need a few years in the minors. It's not just Montreal doing that, it's league wide. Thanks Brian good food for thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 With the exception of the rangers, each of those teams are in the macdavid sweepstakes - not pretending to be contenders and their fans certainly aren't singing praises of their management the way guys do on this site. Behind old, slow defence corps? Maybe not many considering it's a somewhat loaded question given that the Habs have the oldest D. Playing behind career journeymen and veteran AHL 'tweeners'? Quite a few of the non-regulars on this list are behind some of those on their respective teams' depth chart. Some examples: Mark Pysyk (BUF) is behind former Hamilton Bulldog Andre Benoit. Ryan Murphy (CAR) is behind Brett Bellemore and several players who couldn't crack Toronto in past years. Dylan McIlrath (NYR) is behind Matt Hunwick and Mike Kostka, both mediocre-at-best NHL d-men. Oscar Klefbom (EDM) can't crack an Edmonton lineup that is inept in its own end. There are other examples too, these are just a few. It's not just the Habs who don't put their young D in the NHL as soon as possible...and at least the veterans that are ahead of Beaulieu/Tinordi in Montreal are NHL regulars, not like the ones above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 And what is wrong with what Mgmt have been doing? Hasn't the team improved for 3rd straight year, as currently they are ahead of last year pace and that team basically coasted into playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 With the exception of the rangers, each of those teams are in the macdavid sweepstakes - not pretending to be contenders and their fans certainly aren't singing praises of their management the way guys do on this site. So if they're not contending, why not play the young guys? That's a common sentiment on here. Clearly those teams also see value in letting those prospects play big minutes in the minors over depth duty in the NHL, just like Montreal. And as I said, those four I noted weren't the only ones in those situations either so it's not a matter of it being mostly bad teams doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Let's also entertain the possibility that Beaulieu and Tinordi might not be as good as advertised. We were all hoping that they would turn into top-4 guys for the next ten years, but it's also possible that Tinordi is a number five at best and Beaulieu has attitude problems that ship him out of town or turn him into a bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 That is Objective view with no Hab-coloured glasses on, yes LM, neither Tinordi or Beaulieu may not be a top 4 d-man, period. Same as many draft picks are assumed/or relied on to be impact players in 2-3-or 4years, most bust; but, you just never know when a Markov, Plekanec, Gallagher is drafted with low expectations or a PK Subban drops to 2nd round and is a steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Hey Islander (illWill), what is last post about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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