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feb.28th Montreal @ Toronto


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100% agree. I've been saying this for years. Have stiffer in game penalties and longer suspensions and you don't have this Don Cherry nonsense about the need for enforcers to police the game - which doesn't work.

The NHL indefinitely suspended Avery for a sloppy seconds comment and voynov for something he hasn't even been found guilty for, yet the cheap shot that could have ended Seguin's career warranted a couple of games. MaxPac almost being decapitated warranted nothing.

Fighting is pointless and serves no purpose. No other league tolerates it, except the Neanderthals running the NHL. And the speed of the game srguement is a stupid one. Players get tackled every friggin play in football. They don't take offense and fight if the tackle was late. Why - it's not tolerated. The consequences are mucho recasting- particularly when you consider it's a 16 game season.

In that case explain where enforcers did anything to prevent, enforce or detract from:

- Dino Ciccerelli on Luke Richardson

- Jimmy Mann on Paul Gardner

- Tiger Williams on Dennis Orchar

- Dave Forbes on Henry Boucha

- Dan Maloney on Brian Glennie

- Wilf Paiement on Dennis Polonich

- Dave Brown on Tomas Sandstrom

- David Shaw on MARIO LEMIEUX

- Ron Hextall on Chris Chelios

Not to mention all of the dirty hits in the 70s and 80s?

People act like dirty hits suddenly began in the 90s. They didn't. Enforcers never prevented a thing. In actuality, Montreal bringing in John Ferguson Sr. to be the first enforcer led to teams packing their lineups with goons and bruisers, all given the title of "enforcer" to make them sound like they did something that contributed to the game. The job of Dave Schultz wasn't to be an enforcer. It was to ensure that when Bobby Clarke took cheapshots at everyone in the league, nobody would come back at him.

Your response to my examples is likely that you can't prevent everything and you're right. You can't. The problem is expecting players to police themselves. It should be up to the officials in the game and NHL management. The suspensions are so soft that nobody cares if they miss a couple games. It's a vacation and a chance to rest injuries they are getting away with playing on. If suspensions were harsh (imagine if David Clarkson got 25 games for his hit on Sergei Gonchar) then the players who keep their elbows high and their sticks in cross check would stop doing it. The first player who loses a whole season due to a suspension would make every other player take notice and think twice. Having players police the game just leads to an arms race in getting the biggest and toughest guy possible.

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I am not sure about the negative Gilbert comments lately. For the last five games, Gilbert has looked great. Saved two sure goals today in the first period. If he continues, I will forgive his poor play for the first 55 games.

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I am not sure about the negative Gilbert comments lately. For the last five games, Gilbert has looked great. Saved two sure goals today in the first period. If he continues, I will forgive his poor play for the first 55 games.

yeah I gotta agree with that, he has looked a lot better. Now let's see Beaulieu looks good, Pateryn looking a lot better, Gilbert looks pretty good. I wonder if that is because they are playing serious minutes? Maybe a little faith from the coaching staff goes a long way. I really don't know.

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In that case explain where enforcers did anything to prevent, enforce or detract from:

- Dino Ciccerelli on Luke Richardson

- Jimmy Mann on Paul Gardner

- Tiger Williams on Dennis Orchar

- Dave Forbes on Henry Boucha

- Dan Maloney on Brian Glennie

- Wilf Paiement on Dennis Polonich

- Dave Brown on Tomas Sandstrom

- David Shaw on MARIO LEMIEUX

- Ron Hextall on Chris Chelios

Not to mention all of the dirty hits in the 70s and 80s?

People act like dirty hits suddenly began in the 90s. They didn't. Enforcers never prevented a thing. In actuality, Montreal bringing in John Ferguson Sr. to be the first enforcer led to teams packing their lineups with goons and bruisers, all given the title of "enforcer" to make them sound like they did something that contributed to the game. The job of Dave Schultz wasn't to be an enforcer. It was to ensure that when Bobby Clarke took cheapshots at everyone in the league, nobody would come back at him.

Your response to my examples is likely that you can't prevent everything and you're right. You can't. The problem is expecting players to police themselves. It should be up to the officials in the game and NHL management. The suspensions are so soft that nobody cares if they miss a couple games. It's a vacation and a chance to rest injuries they are getting away with playing on. If suspensions were harsh (imagine if David Clarkson got 25 games for his hit on Sergei Gonchar) then the players who keep their elbows high and their sticks in cross check would stop doing it. The first player who loses a whole season due to a suspension would make every other player take notice and think twice. Having players police the game just leads to an arms race in getting the biggest and toughest guy possible.

100% agree. I've been saying this for years. Have stiffer in game penalties and longer suspensions and you don't have this Don Cherry nonsense about the need for enforcers to police the game - which doesn't work.

The NHL indefinitely suspended Avery for a sloppy seconds comment and voynov for something he hasn't even been found guilty for, yet the cheap shot that could have ended Seguin's career warranted a couple of games. MaxPac almost being decapitated warranted nothing.

Fighting is pointless and serves no purpose. No other league tolerates it, except the Neanderthals running the NHL. And the speed of the game srguement is a stupid one. Players get tackled every friggin play in football. They don't take offense and fight if the tackle was late. Why - it's not tolerated. The consequences are mucho recasting- particularly when you consider it's a 16 game season.

As much as the enforcer effect can be argued endlessly, both ways, these two posts have the best logic I have ever hear or read on the subject.

Habs beat the Leafs for me, with my life long friend/fishing partner/Leaf fan sitting at my house, how sweet it is!

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Guest Stogey24

Worst part of Don Cherry's rant was talking about why enforcers are needed (Gretzky, Beliveau) and then right after saying that tough guys don't go after stars.

Its not usually the tough guys though. Its the Matt Cookes and Sean Averys of the game.
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Long suspensions for infractions definitely would help. But you have to understand - the fighters/tough guys are rarely the ones committing those infractions. And furthermore, our current setup actually penalizes sticking up for your teammates more than it penalizes the cheap shots your trying to prevent.

There's no situation in life where waiting on official justice is ever a smart/viable option. It doesn't work with the police/courts, it certainly doesn't work in a sporting event. If someone breaks into your home and hits your wife, it's YOUR responsibility to take him out. Waiting for the cops to arrive and the courts to sentence him is idiotic.

The current NHL rules penalize you for protecting your own from violence, and don't give the cops the ability to do anything about it. (Actually, if the refs came into the situation swinging a hockey stick at the offender's head, they might be able to help.) The NHL rules need to penalize the cheap shot, not the retaliation. Furthermore, they should penalize the cheap shot AGAIN if it results in retaliation.

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Long suspensions for infractions definitely would help. But you have to understand - the fighters/tough guys are rarely the ones committing those infractions. And furthermore, our current setup actually penalizes sticking up for your teammates more than it penalizes the cheap shots your trying to prevent.

There's no situation in life where waiting on official justice is ever a smart/viable option. It doesn't work with the police/courts, it certainly doesn't work in a sporting event. If someone breaks into your home and hits your wife, it's YOUR responsibility to take him out. Waiting for the cops to arrive and the courts to sentence him is idiotic.

The current NHL rules penalize you for protecting your own from violence, and don't give the cops the ability to do anything about it. (Actually, if the refs came into the situation swinging a hockey stick at the offender's head, they might be able to help.) The NHL rules need to penalize the cheap shot, not the retaliation. Furthermore, they should penalize the cheap shot AGAIN if it results in retaliation.

How could anyone argue with that.

Great Post.

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Long suspensions for infractions definitely would help. But you have to understand - the fighters/tough guys are rarely the ones committing those infractions. And furthermore, our current setup actually penalizes sticking up for your teammates more than it penalizes the cheap shots your trying to prevent.

There's no situation in life where waiting on official justice is ever a smart/viable option. It doesn't work with the police/courts, it certainly doesn't work in a sporting event. If someone breaks into your home and hits your wife, it's YOUR responsibility to take him out. Waiting for the cops to arrive and the courts to sentence him is idiotic.

The current NHL rules penalize you for protecting your own from violence, and don't give the cops the ability to do anything about it. (Actually, if the refs came into the situation swinging a hockey stick at the offender's head, they might be able to help.) The NHL rules need to penalize the cheap shot, not the retaliation. Furthermore, they should penalize the cheap shot AGAIN if it results in retaliation.

Jeff, we're close to agreement.

The NHL doesn't do enough to penalize and punish for cheapshots.

The problem is when you want players to retaliate. This isn't real life. This is sport. The problem with your analogy is that in hockey, that means there are police officers in your house the entire time. If someone takes a crack at your wife while the cops are in your house? They are being stupid and careless. THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD LOOK IN HOCKEY but instead referees are expected to "game manage" and punishments mean nothing.

Imagine a league where when Milan Lucic sticks a player in the crotch with his stick, he gets tossed from the game and a 10 game suspension. He can try to appeal after the game. That's the immediate reaction. Why worry about retaliation? He's gone. Bruins might lose the game now that they are killing a penalty for half a period and lost an important player.

"Retaliation" should always be on the scoreboard. Justice should be through the fines/suspension system. Any other system is easily manipulated. The only reason we're having this conversation is because NHL penalties, fines and suspensions are too soft. Make a head shot 25 games and it wouldn't be anymore.

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Gonchar really slows down the backend

He really does.

I like the young guys in there. Gonchar bottom pair. Gilbert in the press box. Hoping MB lands another tough stay at home wet before tuesday.

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I am not sure about the negative Gilbert comments lately. For the last five games, Gilbert has looked great. Saved two sure goals today in the first period. If he continues, I will forgive his poor play for the first 55 games.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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yeah I gotta agree with that, he has looked a lot better. Now let's see Beaulieu looks good, Pateryn looking a lot better, Gilbert looks pretty good. I wonder if that is because they are playing serious minutes? Maybe a little faith from the coaching staff goes a long way. I really don't know.

Minutes always help. NB took the job of third d when he was put on the second pair. He was given decent ice time and has never looked back.

Pateryn looks rock solid out there. Rick Green style.

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Simple and very understated.

Once they lose, someone else can spice it up (i only had a minute and missed game as well)

Price was good again i assume.

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Guest Stogey24

Thought/hoped same thing. Has looked slow and fighting the puck. (so far)

Yeah, he's apparently a "bowling ball" out there. Usually a player brings more than usual in their first couple games. I hope he just needs to get use to the flow
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Once they lose, someone else can spice it up (i only had a minute and missed game as well)

Price was good again i assume.

Hey no criticism man just a little humor. I can't complain if I wasn't ready to do it myself.

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Jeff, we're close to agreement.

The NHL doesn't do enough to penalize and punish for cheapshots.

The problem is when you want players to retaliate. This isn't real life. This is sport. The problem with your analogy is that in hockey, that means there are police officers in your house the entire time. If someone takes a crack at your wife while the cops are in your house? They are being stupid and careless. THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD LOOK IN HOCKEY but instead referees are expected to "game manage" and punishments mean nothing.

Imagine a league where when Milan Lucic sticks a player in the crotch with his stick, he gets tossed from the game and a 10 game suspension. He can try to appeal after the game. That's the immediate reaction. Why worry about retaliation? He's gone. Bruins might lose the game now that they are killing a penalty for half a period and lost an important player.

"Retaliation" should always be on the scoreboard. Justice should be through the fines/suspension system. Any other system is easily manipulated. The only reason we're having this conversation is because NHL penalties, fines and suspensions are too soft. Make a head shot 25 games and it wouldn't be anymore.

25 games is too long and won't ever be accepted by the NHLPA. That's 1/4th of a player's salary and could be taken off for an dumb accident.

10 games should be more appropriate and could be accepted by the players if they really want to make a push against headshot (intentional or not).

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25 games is too long and won't ever be accepted by the NHLPA. That's 1/4th of a player's salary and could be taken off for an dumb accident.

10 games should be more appropriate and could be accepted by the players if they really want to make a push against headshot (intentional or not).

Of course, playing devil's advocate, that runs the risk of turning the NHL into a no-contact sport. Seriously, we've already seen people suspended for hits that would have been clean if the target hadn't ducked at the last second or turned to put his head on the hitter's shoulder. If you're going to penalize every hit to the head, you basically make EVERY hit a potential long suspension.

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