Commandant Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Some guys play better come play off time. Some guys the same. Some guys game goes south. Stats are not the only way too measure that. Some players style hold up better than other players for play off hockey. Some players just have more left in the tank at game 90 than others. As Glen Healy puts it, there are just some players that will stink in June. Period. Yeah, those who rely on the PP for their points. Those who can score in close games... 5 v 5 in the regular season... will (over a big enough sample size) score 5 v 5 in the playoffs. As for "as Glen Healy puts it".... he's tied with P.J. Stock for the biggest idiot on hockey broadcasts today. I don't care what Healy says. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Healy had a few too many pucks to the head, P.J. & that Doug Maclean guy; safe to say, will never be a Mensa members neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Yeah, those who rely on the PP for their points. Those who can score in close games... 5 v 5 in the regular season... will (over a big enough sample size) score 5 v 5 in the playoffs. As for "as Glen Healy puts it".... he's tied with P.J. Stock for the biggest idiot on hockey broadcasts today. I don't care what Healy says. lol Not big fan of Healy either. Does not mean he is wrong in everything he says though. On this one i happen to agree with the way he put it.. But I could quote Gretz if you prefer "there are three seasons, reg season, play offs, stanley cup finals......every one goes up another level" or PK Subban if you like "play offs is where we find out who is in shape and who is not" or Larry Robinson "some guys have what it takes to play at that level, some guy don't" Ryan Walter "play offs are played "inside" and some guys cant or wont play there" . Play offs are a whole different animal..........stands to reason that some players would play better than others during the toughest part of the journey. Talk about stating the obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The only "different animal" is that there are less PPs... This idea of clutch and not clutch is a media construct... a narrative that sounds nice, and we buy into, heck even players who are trained in talking in cliches, have picked it up as one of those cliches. But its not real. Its not a repeatable skill to be better in the playoffs than the regular season.You bring up Gretzky... and gretzky is a great example of this. Was Gretzky clutch? Nope... He was the greatest hockey player of all time (or top 3 if you prefer Lemieux or Orr or both). He wasn't better in the playoffs than the regular season... he was great all the time. Joe Sakic is another example. All time leader in playoff overtime goals. So clearly he was clutch, right? Nope, he was just a great goal scorer. He was great on shitty Nordiques teams in the early 90s and he was great on powerhouse Avs teams later. Here is one article on the phenomenon. http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25176283/the-nhls-clutch-players-we-place-too-much-importance-on-the-playoffs Here is one with stats http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/10/3/clutch-nhl-playoff-big-game-performers Bottom line, if you can score at Even Strength in the regular season... you can be productive in the playoffs, and if you aren't its likely just a cold streak at the wrong time of year, and not an indictment that you will never score in the playoffs. If you are just a one trick pony, powerplay specialist, your value is likely diminished (though not totally gone) in playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Healey should know, he stunk most months and was a glorified backup that was lucky to play with 99 when he got traded there. Some guys play better come play off time. Some guys the same. Some guys game goes south.Stats are not the only way too measure that.Some players style hold up better than other players for play off hockey.Some players just have more left in the tank at game 90 than others.As Glen Healy puts it, there are just some players that will stink in June. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Well, there ARE players who do worse in the playoffs. Consider Jim Carey. Or Marc-Andre Fleury. And it's not just goalies. Desharnais has been putrid in the playoffs. This is not because he's a PP specialist, but because he lacks the speed and/or size to escape the magnified clutching and grabbing. (Will he be able to do it this year as a 3rd-line C? We shall see). Markov has never put together a consistently excellent playoff run either, if memory serves, but he's always been one of the league's best defencemen. By contrast, Cammalleri has always relied on the PP to pad his point totals, yet led the league (or thereabouts) in points for two playoffs with us until he was eliminated. Arguably, he 'elevated his game.' Saku Koivu was an absolute beast in a number of playoffs (admittedly, mostly single rounds in his case). No one would call him an 'absolute beast' in the regular season. So while I'd probably agree with Commandant that the phenomenon is exaggerated in media and fan commentaries, I still think it *is* a real phenomenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The only "different animal" is that there are less PPs... This idea of clutch and not clutch is a media construct... a narrative that sounds nice, and we buy into, heck even players who are trained in talking in cliches, have picked it up as one of those cliches. But its not real. Its not a repeatable skill to be better in the playoffs than the regular season. You bring up Gretzky... and gretzky is a great example of this. Was Gretzky clutch? Nope... He was the greatest hockey player of all time (or top 3 if you prefer Lemieux or Orr or both). He wasn't better in the playoffs than the regular season... he was great all the time. Joe Sakic is another example. All time leader in playoff overtime goals. So clearly he was clutch, right? Nope, he was just a great goal scorer. He was great on shitty Nordiques teams in the early 90s and he was great on powerhouse Avs teams later. Here is one article on the phenomenon. http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25176283/the-nhls-clutch-players-we-place-too-much-importance-on-the-playoffs Here is one with stats http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/10/3/clutch-nhl-playoff-big-game-performers Bottom line, if you can score at Even Strength in the regular season... you can be productive in the playoffs, and if you aren't its likely just a cold streak at the wrong time of year, and not an indictment that you will never score in the playoffs. If you are just a one trick pony, powerplay specialist, your value is likely diminished (though not totally gone) in playoffs. "its not an indictment that you will never score in the play offs" Gee no kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Healey should know, he stunk most months and was a glorified backup that was lucky to play with 99 when he got traded there. I'll give Heals credit. He was a beast when the Islanders without Turgeon beat the Cup favourite Pittsburgh Penguins in seven. They blew him out on a few games but the four the Isles won, he had a big part of. That's all the credit he deserves though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I agree that at basically any level, the intensity level goes up in the playoffs. People definitely do react differently from one another to pressure, adversity etc. The stats used here make a good point about 5 on 5 play and the correlation between being a solid 5 on 5 player and doing well in the playoffs. What they don't take into consideration, however, are mental factors; Which are a big part of how an individual performs in any sport. Other than that, I'm not sure what exactly the argument is. Obviously great players are great at all times... The main argument from Commandant is that less skilled players rarely back up their spontaneous successes in playoff scoring (i,e: Pisani). I'd figure that should be something that occurs rarely anyway but that doesn't mean that players cannot raise their level or falter in the playoffs and that certain players react better to the increase in intensity level. I do believe that certain players can be better regular season players than playoff performers and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I agree that at basically any level, the intensity level goes up in the playoffs. People definitely do react differently from one another to pressure, adversity etc. The stats used here make a good point about 5 on 5 play and the correlation between being a solid 5 on 5 player and doing well in the playoffs. What they don't take into consideration, however, are mental factors; Which are a big part of how an individual performs in any sport. Other than that, I'm not sure what exactly the argument is. Obviously great players are great at all times... The main argument from Commandant is that less skilled players rarely back up their spontaneous successes in playoff scoring (i,e: Pisani). I'd figure that should be something that occurs rarely anyway but that doesn't mean that players cannot raise their level or falter in the playoffs and that certain players react better to the increase in intensity level. I do believe that certain players can be better regular season players than playoff performers and vice versa. Very good post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I'll give Heals credit. He was a beast when the Islanders without Turgeon beat the Cup favourite Pittsburgh Penguins in seven. They blew him out on a few games but the four the Isles won, he had a big part of. That's all the credit he deserves though. Forgot Healy in goal for that. When the Isles took out Pens in game 7 ot win. I knew the Habs 24th cup was all but in the bag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Subban averages 55pts/yr in reg season, but on 57pt pace in playoffs Markov 47 - 30 Pacioretty 57 - 55 Plekanec 54 - 47 Desharnais 51 - 28 (lil Davie seems to realy stand out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I agree that at basically any level, the intensity level goes up in the playoffs. People definitely do react differently from one another to pressure, adversity etc. The stats used here make a good point about 5 on 5 play and the correlation between being a solid 5 on 5 player and doing well in the playoffs. What they don't take into consideration, however, are mental factors; Which are a big part of how an individual performs in any sport. Other than that, I'm not sure what exactly the argument is. Obviously great players are great at all times... The main argument from Commandant is that less skilled players rarely back up their spontaneous successes in playoff scoring (i,e: Pisani). I'd figure that should be something that occurs rarely anyway but that doesn't mean that players cannot raise their level or falter in the playoffs and that certain players react better to the increase in intensity level. I do believe that certain players can be better regular season players than playoff performers and vice versa. Is it true that people react differently to pressure? sure But by the time you get to the NHL, you are the elite of the elite. You faced pressure and succeeded. That time in junior hockey when the NHL scouts were in the arena and watching you play? You succeeded. That time you went to training camp against other really good players looking to make an NHL team? You succeeded. Playoff and regular season scenarios all along the way at the junior levels, at AHL levels, etc.... Those who were gonna fold under the pressure? They folded long time ago and aren't in the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 There playoffs are different from the regular season for many reasons. Teams prepare differently. Coaches work strategy to stop one team instead of playing the whole league. Benches get shorter and all of the bang ups and injuries from the past 82 games catch up to players. Some players also seem to hit their hot streaks in the spring, which is strange but it's the way it is. Some players have a few fantastic post-seasons while everyone ignores the rest of their years, which balance things out. I don't agree with Commandant that there's absolutely nothing to show that some guys play better in the playoffs, but I don't think it's some magical mystery thing. Some players are also fantastic in international competition. Some players play their best hockey in October. You can't look at the LA Kings winning the Cup twice and in both years their regular season numbers were much weaker than their playoff numbers, or just single out Jonathan Quick, an average season goalie who gets red hot in every playoff series. The playoffs almost always favour the defensive players, as well as players who rely on a lot of luck. The guys who hit posts a lot tend to hit net in the post-season, just because everyone is playing a little differently. Anyone that hits the playoffs at 100% health is going to look better than the guy who is playing at 75% and hiding injuries because he doesn't want to let his team down. I don't think it's anything quantifiable, but it is something that happens. Trying to figure out what makes a guy a better or worse player in the playoffs is just as fruitless as basing historical draft data on whether or not a player today is going to be an NHLer. It means nothing when trying to compare careers. If we knew exactly how a player was going to develop, stories like Mike Condon and Cam Talbot and Henrik Lundqvist wouldn't exist and Patrick Roy would have been a Top 5 draft pick. We don't know how all human beings are going to develop, and trying to base it on historical draft data is just going to let you down. Same goes with trying to figure out what makes a playoff performer. Streaks come and go. Some guys play better in certain situations, and the healthy player is going to give you more than the injured player. (Joe Thornton still chokes though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Sure a healthy player will give you more than the injured player... but you can't predict who that will be. Nor will it be the same year to year. Thats why past playoff performance is not an indicator of who will do well going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 There playoffs are different from the regular season for many reasons. Teams prepare differently. Coaches work strategy to stop one team instead of playing the whole league. Benches get shorter and all of the bang ups and injuries from the past 82 games catch up to players. Some players also seem to hit their hot streaks in the spring, which is strange but it's the way it is. Some players have a few fantastic post-seasons while everyone ignores the rest of their years, which balance things out. I don't agree with Commandant that there's absolutely nothing to show that some guys play better in the playoffs, but I don't think it's some magical mystery thing. Some players are also fantastic in international competition. Some players play their best hockey in October. You can't look at the LA Kings winning the Cup twice and in both years their regular season numbers were much weaker than their playoff numbers, or just single out Jonathan Quick, an average season goalie who gets red hot in every playoff series. The playoffs almost always favour the defensive players, as well as players who rely on a lot of luck. The guys who hit posts a lot tend to hit net in the post-season, just because everyone is playing a little differently. Anyone that hits the playoffs at 100% health is going to look better than the guy who is playing at 75% and hiding injuries because he doesn't want to let his team down. I don't think it's anything quantifiable, but it is something that happens. Trying to figure out what makes a guy a better or worse player in the playoffs is just as fruitless as basing historical draft data on whether or not a player today is going to be an NHLer. It means nothing when trying to compare careers. If we knew exactly how a player was going to develop, stories like Mike Condon and Cam Talbot and Henrik Lundqvist wouldn't exist and Patrick Roy would have been a Top 5 draft pick. We don't know how all human beings are going to develop, and trying to base it on historical draft data is just going to let you down. Same goes with trying to figure out what makes a playoff performer. Streaks come and go. Some guys play better in certain situations, and the healthy player is going to give you more than the injured player. (Joe Thornton still chokes though.) Agree that it's not quantifiable. Trying to figure out what makes them "better or worse in play offs is fruitless". Correct. Who cares. The NHL does not pay me enough to figure that the WHY. But what we can do is look in the rear view after a few seasons and see how players held up during Stanley Cup play offs. Where the back goalies are on the bench, where you are playing the same players every night for two weeks. Where over all defense is stronger. Where space shrinks up. In other words where the games get tougher, the hockey being played is better, the bottom feeding teams are nowhere to be seen and every round gets tougher. Looking back record(s) speak for themselves. Some players can do it, some players do it very well, some players practically disappear only to reappear with promise in October. That much we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Agree that it's not quantifiable. Trying to figure out what makes them "better or worse in play offs is fruitless". Correct. Who cares. The NHL does not pay me enough to figure that the WHY. But what we can do is look in the rear view after a few seasons and see how players held up during Stanley Cup play offs. Where the back goalies are on the bench, where you are playing the same players every night for two weeks. Where over all defense is stronger. Where space shrinks up. In other words where the games get tougher, the hockey being played is better, the bottom feeding teams are nowhere to be seen and every round gets tougher. Looking back record(s) speak for themselves. Some players can do it, some players do it very well, some players practically disappear only to reappear with promise in October. That much we know. That is true, I don't think anyone consciously doesn't play well but with the way things tighten up etc as everyone stated. His game may not fit anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Agree that it's not quantifiable. Trying to figure out what makes them "better or worse in play offs is fruitless". Correct. Who cares. The NHL does not pay me enough to figure that the WHY. But what we can do is look in the rear view after a few seasons and see how players held up during Stanley Cup play offs. Where the back goalies are on the bench, where you are playing the same players every night for two weeks. Where over all defense is stronger. Where space shrinks up. In other words where the games get tougher, the hockey being played is better, the bottom feeding teams are nowhere to be seen and every round gets tougher. Looking back record(s) speak for themselves. Some players can do it, some players do it very well, some players practically disappear only to reappear with promise in October. That much we know. Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Is it true that people react differently to pressure? sure But by the time you get to the NHL, you are the elite of the elite. You faced pressure and succeeded. That time in junior hockey when the NHL scouts were in the arena and watching you play? You succeeded. That time you went to training camp against other really good players looking to make an NHL team? You succeeded. Playoff and regular season scenarios all along the way at the junior levels, at AHL levels, etc.... Those who were gonna fold under the pressure? They folded long time ago and aren't in the NHL. And some exceeded beyond expectations when the pressure was on. Some did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If we aren't able to predict who it will be, why does it matter? Isn't this about what players you should keep, and what players you should acquire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 If we aren't able to predict who it will be, why does it matter? Isn't this about what players you should keep, and what players you should acquire? Scouting. Best guess with info you have. Where do we get the info? From a players past Can't predict who will be great and who wont at the draft either.........it still "matters" does it not? No, we cant bring in Kreskin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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