GDT Montreal Canadiens vs. Pittsburgh Penguins | November 11th, 2015 | 7:30 EST

[Commandant]

It's not a 'law' but most players have a drop off in performance when they play their off-side. We saw it with Gorges and Emelin (both thrown on the right side) in the past while Gilbert didn't look too sharp on the left side alongside Pateryn late last year. Gonchar was hit or miss as a righty but at his age, he was going to be that way on either side in all likelihood. In Tinordi's case, he did not fare well to put it lightly on his off-side in past years.

Could Pateryn play the left side? Sure. In theory, anyone can. But when you factor in the likely drop in his play when you put him there, it's not an ideal scenario. Pateryn as a RD ≠ Pateryn as a LD. Thus, 'Plan A' for the Habs would be to keep Pateryn on the right which puts him in a battle with Gilbert and Tinordi on the left which has him battling Emelin. I don't think many would be upset to see Pateryn get in a game or two for Gilbert either.

Many teams have someone playing their off-side by default since not a lot have 3 RD/LD. However, if a team can avoid that situation, they're probably better off for it in most circumstances.

You are also FAR more likely to find a Lefty who can play RD than a righty who can play LD. This is because there are far more Lefties.... so for the most part coming up through minor hockey, junior, AHL, even NHL... the righties always get put on their correct side. But when teams are imbalanced it often ends up 4 LD and 2 RD or 5 LD and 1 RD so you end up the lefties switching over. Therefore they get some experience.

We are in a rare situation where we have more RD in our system right now, than LD.

[Habs30/31]

Why, did Pitt score because of Gilbert? Did they lose because of him? I don't recall Gilbert doing anything too bad, penalty was bit of goof up but not as "Stupid" as some as complaining about.

But, wouldn't break my heart if Gregory does finally get a game. Again we are talking about a bottom six d-man, so not a big deal which one dresses.

Could ask you the same thing every time you rip NB?

Easy buddy. He is as free to voice his opinion on Gilbert as you are on Nate and Semin.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Last night aside, Emelin (and Gilbert) have been pretty good this year - despite what all the haters seem to say. That's something to consider as well. But yanking Gilbert in favour of Pateryn makes some sense given that bizarre mental error by Gilbert in OT. (I still say the late 3rd period penalty was understandable, since the puck only got behind him because of a weird bounce on the bad ice and he made a pure 'reaction' play).

[Habs30/31]

Last night aside, Emelin (and Gilbert) have been pretty good this year - despite what all the haters seem to say. That's something to consider as well. But yanking Gilbert in favour of Pateryn makes some sense given that bizarre mental error by Gilbert in OT. (I still say the late 3rd period penalty was understandable, since the puck only got behind him because of a weird bounce on the bad ice and he made a pure 'reaction' play).

Tinordi and Pateryn were pretty good last time they were up - despite what all the haters seem to say. (a little sarcasm)

Just as you are probably not a "hater" of Tinordi and Pateryn.........neither are those of us who would like to see them play "haters" of Emelin and Gilbert.

I do not hate any of the guys who play their guts out for the Habs............I just happen to like some more than others. As does every EVERY coach, manager and fan.

"Haters" ? Not on this Habs site.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

OK, no 'haters.' But I think there is an exaggerated dislike of Emelin and even - at least based on his play this season, which has been mostly rather good - Gilbert. And there is, commensurate with this, an exaggerated fondness for Tinordi and perhaps Pateryn.

This follows a typical fan pattern of swooning over prospects while piling on any veteran player who happens to be overpaid (especially if he's more of a role player than a star). Heck, I remember a time when Emelin himself was a prospect. He was this awesome, bruising shut-down defender who, if only we could get him to come over from Russia, was going to raise Cain and clear the crease like a monster. 'Wait 'til Emelin gets here!!' Now, it's 'can't we dump Emelin for Tinordi?' After after 3-4 years of Tinordi being a mediocre bottom-pairing guy, it'll be, 'get rid of that bum in favour of [insert hypothetical prospect here],' irrespective of whether that hypothetical prospect is actually an improvement.

KoRP fumes that 'we are not icing out best lineup.' The debate about Semin is one thing (and I agree Semin should draw in), but when it comes to the blueline configuration, this analysis is based almost entirely on a religious faith in Tinordi and a quite-overblown dismissal of Emelin as an absolute piece of garbage, so irredeemably bad that 'it's impossible for Tinordi to do worse.' This is grossly unfair to Emelin, who is a blood-and-guts #5 guy, albeit one who does struggle at times against a fast aggressive forecheck. We're NOT talking about Doug Murray.

I also think the Habs, especially Bergevin, wants to win. And if Bergy were convinced that Tinordi is equal to or better than Emelin, he would trade #74 in a second in order to force Therrien's hand. That's been his pattern: ruthless purging of overpaid vets. So that, to my mind at least, is also relevant. It suggests our GM sincerely doubts that Tinordi will help his club despite all the organizational advantages of using him over Emelin.

[Habs30/31]

I hear ya . I like Emelins physical play. I loved his play the year he went down with the knee running into Lucic. He has not been the same since. This season he looked very good for the first eight or nine games. Back slid the next half dozen or so. I'm less a fan of Gilbert. Now i can only speak for myself but my interest in seeing Patryn and Tinordi up is to get a look at them. This is not a loud barking knock on the two vets. But not a peak this time, a real look at the two bruisers. Its not like we would have to sit Petry or Markov for crying out loud. So Emelin and then Gilbert get some time in a black jersey, eating hot dogs in the press box. Welcome to the big leagues. Not saying they are stinking the joint out. I don't try to speak for MB. I speak for what I think and see. MB is in charge of running the team. Fans are in charge of watching and giving their opinions. Both are doing stupendous jobs. A great deal of the best insight I get from Hab fans is right here.

[DON]

Emelin does have more hits than Subban + Petry combined, or Markov + Subban + Gilbert combined and 100% of hits that actually inflicted a bruise or two.

Yes he is scary with puck but Habs are constantly being outhit as is. Which maybe quite meaningless but he does defend OK and team is winning and not giving up many goals with he and Gilbert both playing a fair amount of icetime.

[KoRP]

CC, I'm not at all fuming, just sayin' that if Emelin wasn't paid like a 2nd tier Dman, he wouldn't be getting the ice time on a platter.

Also, not dismissing Emelin as useless, I have defended him for his mental lapses and defensive breakdowns, because he is our only true hitter.

I just think the best long term solution for the 3 pair, isn't Emelin and Gilbert, and if I was a betting man, if Bergevin can't get these 2 or at least one of them traded this year, it's not the best for Pateryn, or Tinordi's development, since apparently Tinordi has "no perceived value at all" on the trade market.

Therefore, I think it's best long term, to break these 2 bruisers in this season, and I agree that Tinordi hasn't expedited this effect, Pateryn more than showed he can play a 3rd pair role.

I would love to see that 4 million we pay Emelin, spent on that "Iginla", or whatever upgrade on wing this season, but I also know that Bergevin loves defense depth, and I agree you "can never have enough depth on defense at the NHL level"...

Maybe in the end, it will all work out, who knows what will happen if injury bug hits, and one of the young guys gets in the lineup and shines, until then, I guess I can live with Emelin and Gilbert, just don't really wanna.

[Dalhabs]

CC, I'm not at all fuming, just sayin' that if Emelin wasn't paid like a 2nd tier Dman, he wouldn't be getting the ice time on a platter. Also, not dismissing Emelin as useless, I have defended him for his mental lapses and defensive breakdowns, because he is our only true hitter. I just think the best long term solution for the 3 pair, isn't Emelin and Gilbert, and if I was a betting man, if Bergevin can't get these 2 or at least one of them traded this year, it's not the best for Pateryn, or Tinordi's development, since apparently Tinordi has "no perceived value at all" on the trade market. Therefore, I think it's best long term, to break these 2 bruisers in this season, and I agree that Tinordi hasn't expedited this effect, Pateryn more than showed he can play a 3rd pair role. I would love to see that 4 million we pay Emelin, spent on that "Iginla", or whatever upgrade on wing this season, but I also know that Bergevin loves defense depth, and I agree you "can never have enough depth on defense at the NHL level"...Maybe in the end, it will all work out, who knows what will happen if injury bug hits, and one of the young guys gets in the lineup and shines, until then, I guess I can live with Emelin and Gilbert, just don't really wanna.

Id rather trade Eller and keep Emelin myself but those two are close to eachother. Both are overpayed for what they bring but I feel we have better replacements for Eller than for Emelin in the system and thats why I say trade Eller before Emelin.

[Habs30/31]

Eller on pace for 25 goals. Kills penalties. Plays with numerous line mates every year including this one. Plays center or wing. Has size. Always willing to take the hit to make a play. Scored 14 even strength goals last season playing 3rd line. Still owns the best play off performance of any forward on the club. 3. 5 mill Not over paid by today's standards.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Eller is a tolerably useful player as long as no one expects him to be a reliablly productive top-6 guy. How overpaid he is is another question.

KoRP, Pateryn is basically guaranteed Gilbert's spot after this season; the only way he doesn't get it is if the Habs want to go 'all in' (Emelin excepted) on puck-movement and skating from the back end. I think Pateryn is probably mature enough to survive a season as a black ace. So while I agree that his situation isn't optimal, I don't see it a big problem.

I understand that Emelin is overpaid, but if Tinordi's trade value is zero, and neither the Habs nor other teams have any faith in him, then he is not our long-term solution in the bottom pairing either. That's sort of the problem...if Tinordi sucks, then moving Emelin out to make room for him doesn't help us. Quite the reverse.

[Habs30/31]

Moving Emelin out with his salary ? Good luck.

Playing Pateryn over Gilbert now? Nobody would question that move.

[Guest Stogey24]

I said the same thing with Beaulieu. Give the kid ice time and he'll prove his worth. He did just that.

I hear people saying Tinordi hasn't out played Emelin for his spot. Well how can he sitting in the presser? Give the kid a spot start hear and there and atleast see where he stands.

[Habs30/31]

Small sample size but there were two consecutive road games (wins) last season against the Blues and Jackets. Both Tiny and Pateryn played. Tiny was very good, Pateryn was exceptional, particularly against the Blues. Pasting Backes to the boards after taking a scoring chance away . The Blues captain was invisible the rest of the night. I would like to see Patryn get a twenty game stretch. If Semin can get ten games after stinking the joint out in Carolina. Why not?

Hey in this division. With the start we have had. Play offs are guaranteed. We have the team and the standing to get the two young bruisers in. If one or both cant cut it. Put the other two back in. If Condor can surprise you and fill in for Carey Price....I'm sure the team could handle Pateryn in for Emelin or Tiny in for Gilbert.

I think most fans have no problem with that. Other than the ones that have to be on the same page as management with every single decision they make.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I said the same thing with Beaulieu. Give the kid ice time and he'll prove his worth. He did just that.

I hear people saying Tinordi hasn't out played Emelin for his spot. Well how can he sitting in the presser? Give the kid a spot start hear and there and atleast see where he stands.

Beaulieu earned his spot. It wasn't just handed to him, and he wasn't asked to replace a guy who was playing well. The problem is that Tinordi has never done anything to earn an NHL spot. His training camps have been mediocre - including the most recent one, at which, by all accounts, he signally failed to make a case for himself despite having had to know that it was make-or-break. He even had a dodgy season in the AHL the year before, if I recall. So there's really no particular reason to 'give him a chance,' epsecially considering - again - that Emelin, who is the guy he'd have to replace, has largely played well this year. The whole assumption seems to be that Tinordi is by definition entitled to NHL time. I disagree. He is no more entitled than, say, Drew Drewiske.

Pateryn is another case. He did OK in the playoffs and unlike Tin Man has definitely made a case for himself as a legitimate NHL prospect. I have no problem with sitting out Gilbert for a game based on his bizarre mental lapse in OT last night. But (to reiterate) the dilemma is that Gilbert has also played well this year, and benching him for an extended period really would not be warranted in hockey terms.

It should also be remembered that Therrien has shown himself willing to bench veteran defenders in favour of young guys before - c.f. Mike Weaver, who basically sat on his butt for the final year with us.

I'd really like the NHL to change these waiver requirements. These guys should be playing in the AHL.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I'd really like the NHL to change these waiver requirements. These guys should be playing in the AHL.

The NHLPA is actually the one who doesn't want it changed. They want players to be able to play for a different NHL team than be sent down to the AHL without impunity to make less money. Hence waivers.

If Tinordi could play in the AHL if accepting a conditioning assignment, he should be taking the conditioning assignment. Not like Dad's day was a big deal for him unlike Pateryn. Mark Tinordi didn't show.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The NHLPA is actually the one who doesn't want it changed. They want players to be able to play for a different NHL team than be sent down to the AHL without impunity to make less money. Hence waivers.

If Tinordi could play in the AHL if accepting a conditioning assignment, he should be taking the conditioning assignment. Not like Dad's day was a big deal for him unlike Pateryn. Mark Tinordi didn't show.

I get it. But Bergevin is illustrating the classic tendency of CBA rules to yield unintended consequences. The rule is morphing into a recipe for players to become permanent black aces because GMs refuse to lose an asset. Unless money is all that matters, that's a perverse outcome for all concerned. Anyway, I don't expect it to change, so this is all just spittin' in the wind.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

I get it. But Bergevin is illustrating the classic tendency of CBA rules to yield unintended consequences. The rule is morphing into a recipe for players to become permanent black aces because GMs refuse to lose an asset. Unless money is all that matters, that's a perverse outcome for all concerned. Anyway, I don't expect it to change, so this is all just spittin' in the wind.

I do believe the fix to this will be expansion. Teams won't be able to protect those guys and they will get scooped up by Quebec/Las Vegas/Seattle/Tulsa

[Jeff Price (no relation)]

OK, no 'haters.' But I think there is an exaggerated dislike of Emelin and even - at least based on his play this season, which has been mostly rather good - Gilbert. And there is, commensurate with this, an exaggerated fondness for Tinordi and perhaps Pateryn.

This follows a typical fan pattern of swooning over prospects while piling on any veteran player who happens to be overpaid (especially if he's more of a role player than a star).

It's all about the salary.

If salary were not a factor at all, who would I rather have on this team, Pateryn or Emelin? Obviously Emelin. Likewise, if salary were not a factor, I'd happily take Eller over Mitchell or Flynn. However, Salary is an issue. You have to produce value for the salary you are being paid.

At 4+ million in cap hit a season, Emelin is way overpaid. He's a decent defenseman. I don't even mind him as a top 4, really (especially when Subban, Markov and Petry are the top 3). However, I do mind a moderately physical player without much offensive upside at all making 4+ million a season. That's money we could be spending on better players! Likewise, Eller's 3.5 million on the cap contrasts to a bunch of other guys who produce nearly as much or more making under 2 million. I don't complain about Gilbert. He gives us what we're paying him to give us. At 2.8 million he's coming in significantly under the veteran player average and providing us with average results. Obviously, I'd prefer a better defenseman, but a better defenseman costs more and the cap means you have to pick your points of value. Beaulieu's current contract is a thing of beauty. Desharnais's is even better. Pacioretty's is unfreakinbelievable, making an already incredible player (when healthy) all the more valuable. But a guy like Emelin has worn out his welcome for me, not due to anything he himself does or does not do, other than not provide enough value for the cap hit he takes away. (This is the same problem Toronto has in Dion Phaneuf. Phaneuf is, contrary to what most fans will say, a far better-than-average defenseman. He's just not worth 7.5 million a year. if he were making what Emelin makes, he'd be a steal.)

Let's put it another way: Would taking out Emelin and replacing him with Tinordi make this team better? Not a chance. At least, not if that's all you did. However, would taking out Emelin and replacing him on the top 4 with Beaulieu, then replacing Beaulieu's spot on the bottom 2 with Tinordi, then spending that 4+ million on a decent top 4 winger make this team better? Absolutely. Tinordi gives you 70% of what Emelin gives you for 1/8th the price, and we could fix this issue that has us playing Byron or DSP on the powerplay. (Although - is that an issue when your powerplay is third best in the league? Heh.)

Note: Emelin has an NTC, so it's all rather academic.

[Guest Stogey24]

If Tinordi is going to give you 70% of what Emelin gives you, then I might as well suit up.

Emelin is sitting third in the league in turnovers. I wouldn't just tear into this guy everyday if he wasn't shit. I don't like Gilbert at all either, but he's really cleaned his game up from last year. I thought Emelin was back to his former self the first 5 games, but then fell right back into his old ways.

[dlbalr]

Emelin is sitting third in the league in turnovers. I wouldn't just tear into this guy everyday if he wasn't shit. I don't like Gilbert at all either, but he's really cleaned his game up from last year. I thought Emelin was back to his former self the first 5 games, but then fell right back into his old ways.

Subban sits 4th, Petry 9th. Two other Habs are tied for 37th. Montreal's statisticians are extremely generous when it comes to what constitutes a giveaway. I don't think the team is that bad at turning over the puck that they have five of the worst 40 players in the league in that department.

I'm not disputing your point here (Emelin is iffy with the puck at times) but any time someone mentions giveaways, I feel the need to remind people that the reliability of that stat is a bit suspect because of its overuse by the Bell Centre stat guys.

[Habs30/31]

Not surprised PK is fourth. Love the guy but he has the puck so much he does give it way ..... more than the average bear or Norris trophy winner

[Guest Stogey24]

Subban sits 4th, Petry 9th. Two other Habs are tied for 37th. Montreal's statisticians are extremely generous when it comes to what constitutes a giveaway. I don't think the team is that bad at turning over the puck that they have five of the worst 40 players in the league in that department.

I'm not disputing your point here (Emelin is iffy with the puck at times) but any time someone mentions giveaways, I feel the need to remind people that the reliability of that stat is a bit suspect because of its overuse by the Bell Centre stat guys.

lol, I knew your were going to point that out. P.K's possess the puck so much though, numbers are a little skewed

I know I sound like a broken record with Emelin, but man, he frustrates me so badly

[Machine of Loving Grace]

My problem with Emelin is how lost he can get in our zone. It's something Tinordi is worse at (and Barberio is better than both of them) so Tinordi wouldn't be a fix. Barberio would just be a band-aid.

[Guest Stogey24]

My problem with Emelin is how lost he can get in our zone. It's something Tinordi is worse at (and Barberio is better than both of them) so Tinordi wouldn't be a fix. Barberio would just be a band-aid.

Your not wrong. I'd just rather see Beaulieu in Emelin's spot and Tinordi bottom pair with Gilbert.