habs rule Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 You are right Don, let's let her die. I will post no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Thanks DON. This is a good point: seems ANY criticism of Subban ALWAYS has instant over the top responses defending him. As Habs fans we're homers - we must recognize this. Even the smarter ones among us. Example: Commandant and Machine's posts about Galchenyuk 2-3 years ago. In November I was ready to declare this Habs squad the best of my fandom; I'm still trying to figure out what made me so wrong (besides Carey of course). We can judge PK as our best player and still point out his flaws. I'm not saying my opinion is ironclad or infallible, I'm just trying to call it as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Just seems obvious that Subban is not a dumb person, actually seems just the opposite. But, does he make questionable decisions with puck, especially when he is the last man back, or carries puck back into own zone, starts doing his (now) very predictable spinarama's, is pressured, coughs up the puck and then basically gives up on the play. (there is a reason Lidstrom, Blake etc didn't do that, it is high risk play bound to cost the team) But, is he a top ten d-men overall, can he make great passes, shrug off opponents, protect the puck, for sure no question. Is his shooting % basically 1/2 of the other top d-men, also for sure and that negative in his game also seems a correctable thing, better coaching needed perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Top 10 lol? Guy is top 3 in the league. If Subban didn't take risks, this team would have even more issues scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 I've always felt that the criticism of Subban for 'high risk' plays has been overblown - not completely without foundation, but exaggerated - because it ignores that Subban has the skills to get himself out of whatever self-inflicted trouble he gets into, and usually does. The critique assumes, in other words, that PK is a normal, average player; but Subban can get away with plays that 98% of players can't. So our assessment needs to be adjusted accordingly. And on this particular team, I agree that I'd rather see a guy taking risks trying to create something than being the same kind of useless turd that almost everyone else is on this squad. But that's another issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Beating around the bush here, or is this a racial issue? Case I'm not sure, but the " keep the great athletes out of the sport, geography and wealth being primary ones" sounds like talking about inner city youth, predominantly black. I didn't want to go there, but if black kids from the American South played hockey, there's no way guys like Brian Flynn or Bournival have professional jobs. This is what happened in basketball, the natural athleticism of African Americans took over and there are very few white players. The difference is stark. High school football players in South Florida are out there throwing eighty yard bombs, when my team in NH ran a halfback dive 9/10 times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Keith, Doughty, Karllson, Weber, Ekman-Larsson, Burns, Josi, Pietrangelo, Suter all could be considered better than Subban by non-HabFans and objective HabFans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 wait Don are you saying that if someone thinks PK is better than OEL, they aren't an objective Habs fan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Keith, Doughty, Karllson, Weber, Ekman-Larsson, Burns, Josi, Pietrangelo, Suter all could be considered better than Subban by non-HabFans and objective HabFans. Keith & Doughty have accomplished more in what counts - the cup. Karllson you can argue is "dumber" in his own end , but is the better offensive player. He clearly is not better defensively than PK. None of the other Dmen is "arguably" better than PK. Burns is NOT better than PK, Ekman-larson is not better than PK (at least not yet), Pietrangelo and suter have not accomplished anything that would lead anyone to conclude they are clearly better than PK. Subban has a Norris - do they?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 No Commandant, what I mean is Ekman-Larsson could be (is) considered better than Subban by some, however unlikely to be by average HabFan who does not see him play much, similar to a Doughty playing on West coast. And all posting here follow Subban a hell of a lot closer than any of other teams top d-men, so is likely hard to be unbiased and Stogey noted that it is ridiculous to say Subban is a top ten d-men and not a lock for top three. However, ask a Nashville fan and likely will hear Weber-Josi are two best and Doughty or maybe a Karllson are next best; that is what I mean. (29 you do know Keith has ZERO Norris trophies neither) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Keith, Doughty, Karllson, Weber, Ekman-Larsson, Burns, Josi, Pietrangelo, Suter all could be considered better than Subban by non-HabFans and objective HabFans. I am a very Habs objective fan and I disagree with that list. kieth maybe, Doughty equal, weber? fugetabout it. ekman-larson close, burns no way, josi no way, pietrangelo no way, Suter not any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 he has got 3 cups though - which is why i listed him and Doughty above Subban. The others listed have won NOTHING! zero, zilch. No Commandant, what I mean is Ekman-Larsson could be (is) considered better than Subban by some, however unlikely to be by average HabFan who does not see him play much, similar to a Doughty playing on West coast. And all posting here follow Subban a hell of a lot closer than any of other teams top d-men, so is likely hard to be unbiased and Stogey noted that it is ridiculous to say Subban is a top ten d-men and not a lock for top three. However, ask a Nashville fan and likely will hear Weber-Josi are two best and Doughty or maybe a Karllson are next best; that is what I mean. (29 you do know Keith has ZERO Norris trophies neither) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 No Commandant, what I mean is Ekman-Larsson could be (is) considered better than Subban by some, however unlikely to be by average HabFan who does not see him play much, similar to a Doughty playing on West coast. And all posting here follow Subban a hell of a lot closer than any of other teams top d-men, so is likely hard to be unbiased and Stogey noted that it is ridiculous to say Subban is a top ten d-men and not a lock for top three. However, ask a Nashville fan and likely will hear Weber-Josi are two best and Doughty or maybe a Karllson are next best; that is what I mean. (29 you do know Keith has ZERO Norris trophies neither) Keith won 2 Norris... 2010, 2014, and one Conn Smythe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 But you used a Norris to say Pietrangelo/Suter are not comparable to Subban, but means nothing for Keith to not have one? Anyways, you could be 100% correct, I didn't say any are better, just that a whole group may be ranked higher than Subban by different people, who are not HabFans. But, other than HabsFans no one was real surprised or upset with Babcock and crew passing on him for Olympics were they. Did he, memory must be going, I thought Keith was one who was passed over year after year, thanks for correction Commandant, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 But you used a Norris to say Pietrangelo/Suter are not comparable to Subban, but means nothing for Keith to not have one? Anyways, you could be 100% correct, I didn't say any are better, just that a whole group may be ranked higher than Subban by different people, who are not HabFans. But, other than HabsFans no one was real surprised or upset with Babcock and crew passing on him for Olympics were they. Did he, memory must be going, I thought Keith was one who was passed over year after year, thanks for correction Commandant, there are many factors to consider the best at a position. When you are looking at the elite, my first criteria will always be the cup, than conn smythe. Than MVP, than positional trophies. Keith and Doughy were main cogs on cups wins. Keith won a conn smythe. Karllson has a 2 norris trophies and despite being horrible on defence this year, will probably win another one as long as the sens make the playoffs. the other guys are all good dmen, but have not won anything. The fact that Babcock picked some of them over Subban for the olympics is meaningless (i.e. Peiterangelo), because, that was driven by assistant coaches on the team backing their players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Duncan Keith took over when Lidstrom left as the best defenseman in the league. An argument could be made over any of doughty subban suter and Karlsson as runner up. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I actually think Keith is overrated by quite a bit. Subban is better offensively and defensively. Keith takes a lot of high risk plays that get covered up by Brent Seabrook. He's a good defenceman, but PK is better at both ends of the ice. My eye test confirms this... oh and when you look at the fancy stats it says the same, Keith is largely overrated defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I wouldn't trade Subban for any defenseman in the league. Imo, when it comes to pure offense, nobody can hang with Karlsson. The Sens give up goals by the dozen, but that guy is suffused with grace, a once in a generation talent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Yes, cant say I would trade him straight up for any d-man I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (29 you do know Keith has ZERO Norris trophies neither) You were probably thinking of Shea Weber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Subban also has the work ethic of a horse. You can't teach those type of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 PK is one of a kind. He fits in well with the history of Larry Guy and Serge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 No Doughty I think it was, he is still without Norris isn't he (too lazy to actually check)? Just too piss off more with one question and curious...Do you think Karllson would be an upgrade, or help Habs more than Subban, or are those two a flip a coin comparable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 No Doughty I think it was, he is still without Norris isn't he (too lazy to actually check)? Just too piss off more with one question and curious...Do you think Karllson would be an upgrade, or help Habs more than Subban, or are those two a flip a coin comparable? Karllson APPEARS to be better offensively - hard to say, since he is allowed to do whatever he wants on the ice. While the habs have always tried to reign in Subban. Karrlson is the more smoother skater and much more accurate shooter. Defensively, its no contest. Subban is the bette player. I hear all of these comments about Subban's brain farts and over aggressiveness, but Karllson makes a lot more - the difference is two fold. First he's allowed to. Second, the NHL establishment doesn't bring up every mistake Karllson makes the way they do with Subban. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Karllson APPEARS to be better offensively - hard to say, since he is allowed to do whatever he wants on the ice. While the habs have always tried to reign in Subban. Karrlson is the more smoother skater and much more accurate shooter. Defensively, its no contest. Subban is the bette player. I hear all of these comments about Subban's brain farts and over aggressiveness, but Karllson makes a lot more - the difference is two fold. First he's allowed to. Second, the NHL establishment doesn't bring up every mistake Karllson makes the way they do with Subban. Yep. I am always amazed at how all the analysts and NHL insiders ooh and aaah over Karllson, while sniffing at Subban's supposed defensive 'lapses.' There is still a decided whiff of the dismissive attitude toward PK because he's got too much attitude...the contempt for him as a guy who doesn't play the NHL bland robot game was more extreme when he first came up, but it's still there, and still just as indefensible as ever. Subban is a horse in all facets of the game. The end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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