The Q bans Fighting

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

15 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Who did Vegas have to stop Florida pushing them around. Keegan Kolesar was the team leader with 68 PIMs?

 

Who did Colorado have? Kurtis McDermid had 89 PIMs in the regular season, but didn't play a single playoff game.  Weird how at the time when winning is most important, he didn't even play and they didn't get intimidated in the playoffs with him in the press box. 

 

These teams seem to be able to win without Ryan Reaves.  So let the Leafs waste their money on him.

 

Vegas doesn't need a Ryan Reaves, they are one of the biggest teams in the NHL, their defence is one big tough group. I think Marchesseault is the only guy on the roster under 6 feet and he is feisty. Vegas is a bad example for your reasoning. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

8 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

If "policing" worked the @$$holes who pull the actual cheap-shots would stop ... but the true cheap-shot artists depend on those cheap-shots as part of their raison d'etre and are well paid for what they do ... so they won't stop.

 

Most of the time what is called "policing" is just retaliating for legal hits ... there is really nothing to "police" ... it is intended to TRY to intimidate the player who threw the legal check from doing it again ... that type of "policing" has no place in the game I-M-O.

 

So let's say you eliminate fighting. The next time someone takes a run at Suzuki or Caulfield, are you going to be happy with just a minor penalty for roughing?

[GHT120]

2 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

So let's say you eliminate fighting. The next time someone takes a run at Suzuki or Caulfield, are you going to be happy with just a minor penalty for roughing?

 

The "Q" has not, despite the thread title, eliminated fighting ... they have just made the penalties for fighting severe enough to VERY STRONGLY discourage it ... if someone takes a severe cheap shot run at CC or NS then I would be OK with another Hab immediately reacting and jumping the guy; penalties be damned ... but if by "a run" you mean throws a big but legal hit, or commits a simple penalty, then the minor is fine.

 

But I believe that part of the approach sanctioned by the "Q" is for the referees and the league to also be more severe in punishing actual cheap shots.

[Commandant]

2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Vegas doesn't need a Ryan Reaves, they are one of the biggest teams in the NHL, their defence is one big tough group. I think Marchesseault is the only guy on the roster under 6 feet and he is feisty. Vegas is a bad example for your reasoning. 

 

No its not a bad example at all. 

 

Players who hit ans play physical are not the issue here.  Its fighting.  No one on Vegas js known as a fighter.  No one.

 

Ryan Reeves and Josh Anderson are two different things.  One is a fighter and one is a big, physical forward.  Only one of the two would still have a job in an NHL that bans fighting 

 

Dont confuse a dislike of fighting with a dislike of physical hockey 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

No its not a bad example at all. 

 

Players who hit ans play physical are not the issue here.  Its fighting.  No one on Vegas js known as a fighter.  No one.

 

Ryan Reeves and Josh Anderson are two different things.  One is a fighter and one is a big, physical forward.  Only one of the two would still have a job in an NHL that bans fighting 

 

Dont confuse a dislike of fighting with a dislike of physical hockey 

 

Fair point. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I understand a team like Toronto going out and getting Reaves. I hope it fails miserably but I get it.  The Leafs rely on star power, they had 4 guys with 80 points or better, the leading scorer for Vegas had 66 points and relied on a total team concept which was successful this year. It doesn't always work that way, sometimes star power wins out but it's probably a little late for the Leafs to change so I guess they feel they need somebody to protect their skilled guys. 

 

I am not a huge fan of fighting but prefer the Habs to have some guys that can look after their skilled guys without wasting a roster spot on a goon. That's why I like Arber so much, he can be a protector and be a good NHL defenseman. I think most like physical hockey, it's part of the game, contact happens and fighting can provide an outlet when frustrations boil over. I don't think there is a place for the stupid premeditated stuff where guys agree before the game to fight. That's ridiculous but I don't think you see as much of that anymore.  I think the low point for the NHL was when the Flyers won 2 cups in a row with all their shenanigans.  I think we are well past that with an average of 1 fight every 5 games, that's not a lot of fighting. 

 

I guess the big point we are discussing here is if fighting still has a place in the NHL?  I still think it does, it's not always pretty but it does make some players more accountable. Just my opinion and it's a debate where people have strong feelings on both sides. I get that. 

 

 

 

[Commandant]

Even with a ban there will always be those spontaneous fights.  I just dont think a team needs a Reaves type.

 

Arber or Tom Wilson or someone who can take a regular shift and benefit their team without needing to fight to try an impact the game (if that even happens) is fine.  But the guy who has little else as an NHLer isnt. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

22 minutes ago, Commandant said:

Even with a ban there will always be those spontaneous fights.  I just dont think a team needs a Reaves type.

 

Arber or Tom Wilson or someone who can take a regular shift and benefit their team without needing to fight to try an impact the game (if that even happens) is fine.  But the guy who has little else as an NHLer isnt. 

 

Toronto getting Reaves could be a disaster (let's hope) but I get that Treliving doesn't think they are tough enough. It's wasted cap space if he is wrong. 

 

Players like Reaves are becoming dinosaurs. There aren't that many of them anymore. 

[Commandant]

The issue with a player like that is hes almost never going to be on the ice with Marner, Matthews, Tavares or Nylander (and when he is, hes a liability that holds them back from reaching their scoring potential).

 

This is why Matt Martin didnt work.

 

There is only so much protection you can do when not on the ice with the player.

 

And as GHT has already pointed out its not really protection at that point just retaliation after the fact.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

15 minutes ago, Commandant said:

The issue with a player like that is hes almost never going to be on the ice with Marner, Matthews, Tavares or Nylander (and when he is, hes a liability that holds them back from reaching their scoring potential).

 

This is why Matt Martin didnt work.

 

There is only so much protection you can do when not on the ice with the player.

 

And as GHT has already pointed out its not really protection at that point just retaliation after the fact.

Not to mention that when the leafs hit the playoffs players like Reaves don’t see much ice at all and as you said he won’t see star line mates. 
 

 

[DON]

14 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

So let's say you eliminate fighting. The next time someone takes a run at Suzuki or Caulfield, are you going to be happy with just a minor penalty for roughing?

Happy your star forward get hits hard or leveled, no. It will happen every few games.

But again, it comes down to what the owners want called, these are high paid workers and no one wants to see them injured often.

Refs could be more quick & consistent on unsportsmenlike penalties for any BS after the whistle, or intimidation tactics maybe?

[hab29RETIRED]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:03 PM, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Fair point. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I understand a team like Toronto going out and getting Reaves. I hope it fails miserably but I get it.  The Leafs rely on star power, they had 4 guys with 80 points or better, the leading scorer for Vegas had 66 points and relied on a total team concept which was successful this year. It doesn't always work that way, sometimes star power wins out but it's probably a little late for the Leafs to change so I guess they feel they need somebody to protect their skilled guys. 

 

I am not a huge fan of fighting but prefer the Habs to have some guys that can look after their skilled guys without wasting a roster spot on a goon. That's why I like Arber so much, he can be a protector and be a good NHL defenseman. I think most like physical hockey, it's part of the game, contact happens and fighting can provide an outlet when frustrations boil over. I don't think there is a place for the stupid premeditated stuff where guys agree before the game to fight. That's ridiculous but I don't think you see as much of that anymore.  I think the low point for the NHL was when the Flyers won 2 cups in a row with all their shenanigans.  I think we are well past that with an average of 1 fight every 5 games, that's not a lot of fighting. 

 

I guess the big point we are discussing here is if fighting still has a place in the NHL?  I still think it does, it's not always pretty but it does make some players more accountable. Just my opinion and it's a debate where people have strong feelings on both sides. I get that. 

 

 

 

Reeves isn’t the answer to the leafs problems. A guy like Tkachuk is - which is why I wanted us to pick Leonard if we didn’t take the Russian. Drafting unskilled big guys like when we drafted McCarron, or the leafs adding a guy like Reeves who is more of a 10th to 12th forward is not really making the team tougher and better.

 

I grow up loving games like the St Patrick’s day massacre with the Nordiques - that was when they still had fighting in the playoffs - and there was true hate between rival teams. 
 

it’s different now. First, we know the impact fighting has in concussions and brain injury. Second, team don’t have slugs on the third, 4th lines anymore - quality of talent pool is higher and everyone has deeper lineups and can’t really waste spots on goons - I think at one time in the late 80’s/early 90’s the blues had at least 4 goons. Lastly, true hate between teams is gone. Can you imagine the 70’s or 80’s  habs and Bruins having players openly training together like Gallagher and Lucic did?

As far as policing goes, if players are automatically suspended for fighting, they won’t fight. If refs start calling cheap shots that are going uncalled and the league starts handing out suspensions and heftier fines for cheap shots, dangerous hits and unsportsmanlike conduct, that will be a far better way to police the game than having a goon in the lineup.

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

57 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Reeves isn’t the answer to the leafs problems. A guy like Tkachuk is - which is why I wanted us to pick Leonard if we didn’t take the Russian. Drafting unskilled big guys like when we drafted McCarron, or the leafs adding a guy like Reeves who is more of a 10th to 12th forward is not really making the team tougher and better.

 

I grow up loving games like the St Patrick’s day massacre with the Nordiques - that was when they still had fighting in the playoffs - and there was true hate between rival teams. 
 

it’s different now. First, we know the impact fighting has in concussions and brain injury. Second, team don’t have slugs on the third, 4th lines anymore - quality of talent pool is higher and everyone has deeper lineups and can’t really waste spots on goons - I think at one time in the late 80’s/early 90’s the blues had at least 4 goons. Lastly, true hate between teams is gone. Can you imagine the 70’s or 80’s  habs and Bruins having players openly training together like Gallagher and Lucic did?

mad far as policing goes, if players get and automatic suspension, they won’t fight. If refs start calling cheap shots that go uncalled and the league starts handing out suspensions and heftier fines for cheap shots, dangerous hit and unsportsmanlike conduct, that will be a far better way to police the game than having a goon in the lineup.

 

 

Yeah - a shift in the culture around refereeing/supplemental discipline could go a long way to purging the game of nonsense. It doesn't seem like brain surgery, but of course it eludes the NHL.