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5 years from now this team will need a rebuild.. Will fans and media allow it done the right way??

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Stogey24    222
4 minutes ago, BCHabnut said:

I like the" wading chest deep in a pool of poop with your mouth open". Now that's a good analogy.

:spamafote:

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

So going Full Rebuild most likely means getting fired. Were a rebuild to happen, it would follow, not precede, the firing of Marc Bergevin.

 

Absolutely. There's no way Marc Bergevin would be put in charge of the team set to rebuild. Since this is his fault.

 

Five years pre-Bergevin (08-12): one division win, one ECF appearance, one playoff miss (Playoff Record: 17-25)

Five years of Bergevin era (13-17): three division wins, one ECF appearance, one playoff miss (Playoff Record: 19-21) 

 

It's a little better. It's not by much.

 

If there's anything I can show to point out that the Habs have not improved by a huge margin since then, it would be this.

 

Five years pre-Bergevin playoffs

Goals For: 102

Goals Against: 126

 

Five years of Bergevin era playoffs

Goals For: 96

Goals Against: 109

 

They allowed a heck of a lot less goals, but they haven't scored more goals than the Koivu/Kovalev teams or the Cammalleri/Gionta teams.

 

This is a big reason why I just don't have any faith in Bergevin. For all we said about the Gainey/Gauthier teams, Bergevin is only marginally improved. Marginally improved with Pacioretty and Price in their peak, with ideal contracts, and a third overall pick forward.

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hab29RETIRED    159
42 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Absolutely. There's no way Marc Bergevin would be put in charge of the team set to rebuild. Since this is his fault.

 

Five years pre-Bergevin (08-12): one division win, one ECF appearance, one playoff miss (Playoff Record: 17-25)

Five years of Bergevin era (13-17): three division wins, one ECF appearance, one playoff miss (Playoff Record: 19-21) 

 

It's a little better. It's not by much.

 

If there's anything I can show to point out that the Habs have not improved by a huge margin since then, it would be this.

 

Five years pre-Bergevin playoffs

Goals For: 102

Goals Against: 126

 

Five years of Bergevin era playoffs

Goals For: 96

Goals Against: 109

 

They allowed a heck of a lot less goals, but they haven't scored more goals than the Koivu/Kovalev teams or the Cammalleri/Gionta teams.

 

This is a big reason why I just don't have any faith in Bergevin. For all we said about the Gainey/Gauthier teams, Bergevin is only marginally improved. Marginally improved with Pacioretty and Price in their peak, with ideal contracts, and a third overall pick forward.

Don't forget to get that marginal improvement, MB benefited from:

already having the following players:

-Price 

- markov

- maxpac

- Subban (allowed him to get Weber)

-Gallagher 

- emelin

-plekanac 

-galchenyuk (gifted #3 overall pick from the ghost , or the goat - whichever moniker you prefer)

 

He also inherited Cole and Beaulieu.  The Cole trade was a good one (since was washed up and disinterested after the lockout), while Beaulieu was a failure in development.  

 

During his first 5 years that was essentially his core.  The only real additions he made was Petry and he had Radulov for one year and he traded his 2nd best draft pick this summer for Drouin. Other than that he rotated a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners out of the lineup.

 

from his draft picks, only galchenyuk and lekhonan have had any sort of impact.

 

so whay exactly did he build??? When he came in he said he was going to build through the draft and player development was going to be a focus.  He hired a bunch of his cronies son those development positions.  But what did the guy who was going to build through the draft do??

 

in his first year he signed a washed up Briere, overpaid for a grunt like prustband brought inuselas pylons like Murray.  There were two of his draft picks that had any meaningful time with the team.  He traded his only other meaningful draft pick for Drouin (good pickup), but at the cost of one of his few good draft picks, and the rumour mill is still buzzing that his gifted best pick (galchenyuk) will be moved.  So much for building through the draft and developing players.  If you hear a guy like Schultz (who was as lost and irresponsible as Beaulieu), talk about how Gonchar helped him develop, you wonder how much Beaulieu would have benefited from a decent coach instead of the MB cronies like Daigneault.

 

the D today is weaker than what he inherited.  Offensively when you factor in that galchenyuk was essentially a gift (that he hasn't been able to develop to his potential), and pleks is now washed up, id say we're at about the same place.

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John B    9

I don't think that fans or the media would accept a tear it down to the studs rebuild.  With all the parity in the league today there is always going to be the notion that the team has a shot.  The Kings won their first cup as one of the last seeds in the west.  I don't thnk anybody expected Nashville to make the final this past year.  There have been so many surprises year after year, that it gives hope to fans/media. For that reason I don't see a rebuild happening anytime soon.  Habs will do what they always do. Re-tool on the fly.  I personally would like to see a rebuild at some point soon, but it's just not going to happen.  Habs will continue spinning their wheels for another decade or so is my guess.  IMO this team doesn't build to win, it builds not to lose.

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Link67    98
1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

Don't forget to get that marginal improvement, MB benefited from:

already having the following players:

-Price 

- markov

- maxpac

- Subban (allowed him to get Weber)

-Gallagher 

- emelin

-plekanac 

-galchenyuk (gifted #3 overall pick from the ghost , or the goat - whichever moniker you prefer)

 

He also inherited Cole and Beaulieu.  The Cole trade was a good one (since was washed up and disinterested after the lockout), while Beaulieu was a failure in development.  

 

During his first 5 years that was essentially his core.  The only real additions he made was Petry and he had Radulov for one year and he traded his 2nd best draft pick this summer for Drouin. Other than that he rotated a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners out of the lineup.

 

from his draft picks, only galchenyuk and lekhonan have had any sort of impact.

 

so whay exactly did he build??? When he came in he said he was going to build through the draft and player development was going to be a focus.  He hired a bunch of his cronies son those development positions.  But what did the guy who was going to build through the draft do??

 

in his first year he signed a washed up Briere, overpaid for a grunt like prustband brought inuselas pylons like Murray.  There were two of his draft picks that had any meaningful time with the team.  He traded his only other meaningful draft pick for Drouin (good pickup), but at the cost of one of his few good draft picks, and the rumour mill is still buzzing that his gifted best pick (galchenyuk) will be moved.  So much for building through the draft and developing players.  If you hear a guy like Schultz (who was as lost and irresponsible as Beaulieu), talk about how Gonchar helped him develop, you wonder how much Beaulieu would have benefited from a decent coach instead of the MB cronies like Daigneault.

 

the D today is weaker than what he inherited.  Offensively when you factor in that galchenyuk was essentially a gift (that he hasn't been able to develop to his potential), and pleks is now washed up, id say we're at about the same place.

 

I notice how you leave out acquisitions that ended up actually being much more helpful than anticipated and all brought in for ridiculously low costs. Guys like Danault, Byron, and Benn. Drouin could easily end up on that list, he is not just a good pick up, he is a meaningful impact acquisition. We traded for a top line player here and lost no one on the current roster, as of right now it is a Home Run, and Until Sergachev turns into a top pairing D-man it will remain a heavily in our favor.

 

That is 4 players added into this roster in the last 2 years who have and will contribute in meaningful ways to the success of this team and they cost us Fleischman, Weise, Pateryn, Sergachev and 4th rd pick. Put that in perspective for a moment, and tell me Bergevin has been completely useless for 5 years. Almost every player you mentioned earlier in your post is a low risk move with no commitments that didn't bite us at all. With the only exception being Prust, and we still didn't really struggle to get rid of him when we wanted to cut him loose, but i'll make him the exception because he got 4 years.

 

Briere, Semin, Murray, Armstrong, Halpern, Weaver, Gonchar were hardly ball and chains to this team, so lets just stop with the rhetoric that they were terrible acquisitions that cost us dearly. 

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illWill    396

So the young core that Bergevin inherited that flourished under him have nothing to do with management, but the young players that didn't flourish have everything to do with management. This sounds like a fire Therrien thread. 

 

Carey Price didn't become Carey Price until Bergevin hired Stephane Waite. No credit for that move I guess either. 

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hab29RETIRED    159
2 minutes ago, Link67 said:

 

I notice how you leave out acquisitions that ended up actually being much more helpful than anticipated and all brought in for ridiculously low costs. Guys like Danault, Byron, and Benn. Drouin could easily end up on that list, he is not just a good pick up, he is a meaningful impact acquisition. We traded for a top line player here and lost no one on the current roster, as of right now it is a Home Run, and Until Sergachev turns into a top pairing D-man it will remain a heavily in our favor.

 

That is 4 players added into this roster in the last 2 years who have and will contribute in meaningful ways to the success of this team and they cost us Fleischman, Weise, Pateryn, Sergachev and 4th rd pick. Put that in perspective for a moment, and tell me Bergevin has been completely useless for 5 years. Almost every player you mentioned earlier in your post is a low risk move with no commitments that didn't bite us at all. With the only exception being Prust, and we still didn't really struggle to get rid of him when we wanted to cut him loose, but i'll make him the exception because he got 4 years.

 

Briere, Semin, Murray, Armstrong, Halpern, Weaver, Gonchar were hardly ball and chains to this team, so lets just stop with the rhetoric that they were terrible acquisitions that cost us dearly. 

I didn't list the multitude of bottom 6 forwards or bottom pairing D that MB picked up, bevause they are not going to be the reason we have success unless the right core is in place.  The only grunt bad moves I referenced were the moves he made when he first came into the job.

 

  MB has constantly shuffled the deck with the foot soldiers and grunts without first addressing the core.  Good GM's build the core and than surround it with the proper support players.  Instead MB brought in a washed up has been in Briere - and from everything I read, we dodged a bullet because Lecavalier didn't want to sign with us.  Either he should have stick to his strategy of building through the draft, or targeted a guy whose best years were ahead of him rather than. A washout like Briere.  There was a reason want philly didn't want Briere and NYR didn't retain Prust - they either weren't worth what they were making or what they wanted.

 

 With the revolving door that MB had, the bad moves out number the good.  MB saves money on an astute pickup in Byron, and than blow the savings on a grunt like Shaw (a horrible contract that I also didn't mention in my earlier post).  He extended pleks when he should have been looking to trade him. Ditto with the original contract to Emelin.

 

your arguement about Sergechev is exactly the same argument people made here to me when I said I hated the McDonough trade.  Now, I like Drouin (and who I thought we should have made more of a push for when he walked out on the lightening) a hell of a lot more than I ever liked Gomez and his horrible contract.  I'd also have been okay with the trade if we didn't trade Subban for Weber (the drafting of Sergechev was one of the reasons MB cited that it made it easier to move Subban).  

 

As as it stands today, we have not improved our forwards from where we were last year (Radulov out, Drouin in), and our defence is much worse.  Upgraded emelin with Schlemko, but we are weaker without Markov.  Alzner Also adds to our flat footed D core.  We're making a lot I moves, but necessarily getting any better.   That is the essence of the MB regime - running to stand still. 

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16 minutes ago, illWill said:

Carey Price didn't become Carey Price until Bergevin hired Stephane Waite. No credit for that move I guess either. 

He was damn good in 2011. But yes Waite was a great hire. As was Christer Rockstrom.

 

You do realize talking about management hires is a terrible idea when trying to defend Bergevin right? Pretty much every other hire was awful. I liked the hiring of Kirk Muller but it doesn't seem to have changed much. I liked Ramsey and he ended up the only guy let go after the 2016 disaster. Ramage, Lapointe, Churla, Brisebois, Lefebvre, Burke, Mellanby, all trash. He has also kept Timmins long after his expiry date and even gave him a raise. Heck almost forgot Therrien, JJ, and Dan The Man.  

 

Also are you trying to credit Bergevin for Price, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, and Subban?

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FYI

markov subban

emelin jorges

kaberle diaz

campoli Y. Weber

 

is what MB inherited on defence...

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, IN THE HEARTS OF MEN said:

FYI

markov subban

emelin jorges

kaberle diaz

campoli Y. Weber

 

is what MB inherited on defence..

 

And he has turned it into

 

Alzner - Weber

Schlemko - Petry 

Davidson - Benn

Jerabek, Morrow

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DON    12
3 hours ago, John B said:

 this team doesn't build to win, it builds not to lose.

How so?

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xXx..CK..xXx    128
10 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

That's the whole point. And it wouldn't be Bergevin letting him walk as much as I wanted Carey to say, "This team is going nowhere. I'm chasing a ring."

 

As for five years from now, if Price doesn't get hurt he will still be a Top 5 goaltender. What he's going to struggle on is the miles. But hey, the team has a great prospect pool... for goalies. I'm sure Lingren or McNiven will pick up the slack for him the way Raanta and Talbot did for Lundqvist.

Did you ever think of the possibility that Carey Price genuinely doesn't feel that way about the Habs? You can throw him into the bucket of Leaf Fan Homers who think the Habs can be competitive. 

 

The reason Carey Price needs to believe this team has a chance to compete is simply because of himself. He doesn't need to focus on all the other noise and things he cannot control. Price leaving for that reason would please the 5-10% of fans who agree with you and demonstrate a certain level of unprofessionalism to the rest. It would never happen because that's not who Carey Price is.

I would be very irritated if I found out Carey Price played for this team with thoughts like that in his head. As fans we can think that way, but if someone is going to try and convince me that Price doesn't think we can win a cup as a result of the players in front of him, I'm going to tell them that they are incorrect and that there's a possibility they've never played sports at a competitive level before.

 

We're getting played with this topic. People are complaining about constant mediocrity and think the answer is to trade away or lose for nothing our hero simply in order to make our team worse, accomplishing nothing more than getting someone fired, with no guarantee of a better outcome on the other side.

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I have no doubt that Price believes he can win a Cup in Montreal. I also believe Price feels Bergevin can build the team to do it, otherwise he would have him fired. Because believe me, he got Therrien fired. 

 

Also, "no guarantee of a better outcome" has to be one of the lamest arguments for keeping the status quo I've seen here. You're smarter than that. 

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Link67    98
4 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I didn't list the multitude of bottom 6 forwards or bottom pairing D that MB picked up, bevause they are not going to be the reason we have success unless the right core is in place.  The only grunt bad moves I referenced were the moves he made when he first came into the job.

 

  MB has constantly shuffled the deck with the foot soldiers and grunts without first addressing the core.  Good GM's build the core and than surround it with the proper support players.  Instead MB brought in a washed up has been in Briere - and from everything I read, we dodged a bullet because Lecavalier didn't want to sign with us.  Either he should have stick to his strategy of building through the draft, or targeted a guy whose best years were ahead of him rather than. A washout like Briere.  There was a reason want philly didn't want Briere and NYR didn't retain Prust - they either weren't worth what they were making or what they wanted.

 

 With the revolving door that MB had, the bad moves out number the good.  MB saves money on an astute pickup in Byron, and than blow the savings on a grunt like Shaw (a horrible contract that I also didn't mention in my earlier post).  He extended pleks when he should have been looking to trade him. Ditto with the original contract to Emelin.

 

your arguement about Sergechev is exactly the same argument people made here to me when I said I hated the McDonough trade.  Now, I like Drouin (and who I thought we should have made more of a push for when he walked out on the lightening) a hell of a lot more than I ever liked Gomez and his horrible contract.  I'd also have been okay with the trade if we didn't trade Subban for Weber (the drafting of Sergechev was one of the reasons MB cited that it made it easier to move Subban).  

 

As as it stands today, we have not improved our forwards from where we were last year (Radulov out, Drouin in), and our defence is much worse.  Upgraded emelin with Schlemko, but we are weaker without Markov.  Alzner Also adds to our flat footed D core.  We're making a lot I moves, but necessarily getting any better.   That is the essence of the MB regime - running to stand still. 

 

Why are you so stuck on Briere? He was not brought here to play top line minutes, he was brought here to play 2nd and 3rd line, help out on the PP, bring some experience and playoff know how to the table. Keep bringing up Briere like Bergevin put all his eggs in that basket, Briere was an addition to the players that were already in the top 9, he was no savior. We signed a mid 30s player who was declining to a 2 year deal and your acting like he was brought here to play a staring role, he was strictly complimentary.

 

Also, comparing the Drouin/Sergachev deal to the Gomez/McDonagh deal is apples and oranges, the only thing in common is we traded our best defense prospect, the players coming back are totally different, in age, in talent, and in upside. Drouin is nearly 10 years younger than Gomez was when we got him. As far as i'm concerned, i'd be more worried if I was Tampa, that they just pulled a Boston and traded away their Seguin, before I worry about if we just traded our McDonaugh. Explain me something, is this team not in need of goals and offence? Who is going to help in that department being in the line up next season, Drouin on the top line, or Sergachev possibly on the 3rd pair? If you answer that objectively, you will see this trade is a landslide win for us until the day Sergachev becomes a top pair dman in this league, a day which no one can know for certain, may never come to be. Got to get away from this its the end of the world Sergachev is gone because we don't have Subban thing, its just looks like the last few kicks while being strangled by a python from disgruntled fans who are still upset about the trade and still try to blame doomsday events on it. That trade was going to happen no matter what, this team did not want to move forward with Subban, and they like Weber way too much, we survived his absence, won a division, improved our PP, lets just move on already. Besides Sergachev is a LHD, Subban/Weber are RHD, if anything Sergachev being traded has more bearing on the fact Markov won't be coming back possibly, way ahead of any Bearing on whether we have Weber or Subban on this team. He was seen as Markov's potential successor.

 

Our D is also not "much worse", we are weaker without Markov but not THAT much. Losing Markov is a loss, there is no denying that. However we made 3 upgrades between the start of last season and now to our defense, Alzner > Emelin, Schlemko > Beaulieu, Benn > Pateryn, I am also convinced we will be doing something about where Markov slotted in, whether that is bringing him back, or finding another LHD through other means, I doubt very much this current Defense line up starts the season. If we even just get Markov back this D is better than last year, if we end up getting a player even better than Markov then this D is in great shape.

 

 

 

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Scott462    54

From what I hear Jerabek is quite the offensive dynamo. We might be sleeping on this guy. Hope he impresses, I wouldn't mind seeing what Weber can get out of him.

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6 hours ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

He was damn good in 2011. But yes Waite was a great hire. As was Christer Rockstrom.

 

You do realize talking about management hires is a terrible idea when trying to defend Bergevin right? Pretty much every other hire was awful. I liked the hiring of Kirk Muller but it doesn't seem to have changed much. I liked Ramsey and he ended up the only guy let go after the 2016 disaster. Ramage, Lapointe, Churla, Brisebois, Lefebvre, Burke, Mellanby, all trash. He has also kept Timmins long after his expiry date and even gave him a raise. Heck almost forgot Therrien, JJ, and Dan The Man.  

 

Also are you trying to credit Bergevin for Price, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, and Subban?

 

Minus one mullahs at it again.

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12 hours ago, Scott462 said:

From what I hear Jerabek is quite the offensive dynamo.

 

Well, the way the D is presently constructed, he'd better be.

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John B    9
20 hours ago, DON said:

How so?

I guess I'm just forming that opinion based on perceived missed opportunities and the fact that this team has had mediocre results in the past couple decades.  Just seems like they are more worried about making the playoffs than they are of winning the Cup.

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xXx..CK..xXx    128

I guess what I was saying is that regardless of the management group, I can't possibly envision us having a better shot at the cup without Carey Price. Outside of the Bruins, I can't think of a recent contender who didn't have multiple elite forwards on their roster. Chicago has/had Toews, Kane, Sharp when he was healthy, Hossa and much more. Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin but then also Phil Kessel and LA has had players like Kopitar, Carter, Gaborik, Richards when he was useful and much more as well. What's different about that Bruins team is that they had a goalie who played at an elite level.

 

As it stands this season, we have Max Pacioretty and then the potential of Drouin and Galchenyuk. I've watched Drouin closely before and have seen him outshine pretty much any of the names I've listed but he hasn't yet reached 60 points in a season so we can't pretend he's at a Crosby or Malkin level yet.

 

I understand that what I've just summed up proves the point that things need to change on the offensive side of things but I sincerely believe that if we were to lose Price, it would take at least 2 elite forwards to make up for that loss with the way our team is configured. I'm not convinced on a personal level that something like a Mikko Koivu and Dubnyk would help our chances at a cup after losing Price. There are probably better examples out there but I don't imagine losing Price would allow us to get something like Bishop and Seguin on our team at the snap of a finger and even then I'm not thrilled.

 

The point is, I don't see us as ever having a better shot without Carey Price, despite the reality that he's never won it himself. That's what I mean by there's no guarantee of a better outcome. Perhaps there are better options out there when it comes to the management team, but that's another story. 

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2 hours ago, John B said:

I guess I'm just forming that opinion based on perceived missed opportunities and the fact that this team has had mediocre results in the past couple decades.  Just seems like they are more worried about making the playoffs than they are of winning the Cup.

 

Well, when GarbageBin spouts off yearly that "the goal every year is to make the playoffs," what other inference can we draw? 

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Stogey24    222
8 hours ago, John B said:

I guess I'm just forming that opinion based on perceived missed opportunities and the fact that this team has had mediocre results in the past couple decades.  Just seems like they are more worried about making the playoffs than they are of winning the Cup.

Well, when you make the playoffs, it's harder to get fired 

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DON    12
16 hours ago, John B said:

I guess I'm just forming that opinion based on perceived missed opportunities and the fact that this team has had mediocre results in the past couple decades.  Just seems like they are more worried about making the playoffs than they are of winning the Cup.

What should they be doing differently? 

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DON    12
7 hours ago, Stogey24 said:

Well, when you make the playoffs, it's harder to get fired 

Typically is quite hard to win a cup without making playoffs 1st.

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Link67    98
15 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

 

Well, when GarbageBin spouts off yearly that "the goal every year is to make the playoffs," what other inference can we draw? 

 

We aren't even legitimate contenders yet, he knows that and so do we, what should he be doing? lying about it an making a lavish claim before the season that he expects this team to win a championship just to make you happy? Did David Poile say that about Nashville before the season? Of course not, because no one expected them to get to a cup final and neither did he, Bergevin doesn't expect us to win a cup and neither do we. So why should he set anything but a realistic goal, Make the playoffs, after that anything can happen, as teams have shown time and time again each and every year.

 

Just more unobjective rhetoric, pitch forks out, type of stuff, instead of looking around the league and noticing only 2 teams had even remotely made announcements such as the one you seem to want to see Bergevin making. Two teams made such claims, Pittsburgh and Chicago, one said they would like to repeat, the other said anything less than a cup is a failure for this core, 2 teams who have been the most successful of the past 5 or 6 years, that's it, that's all. Do you honestly believe us in that category? should Bergevin be making the same kind of claims as they do? what about all the other 29 teams, why aren't they doing that? Why is it only Bergevin gets inexplicably attacked for nonsense like being realistic with his expectations and that of the ones he wants to rest on his teams shoulders? Is he the only GM not making "Win a cup or Bust" claims before the season? Should everyone else be on the chopping block then because of that? Maybe we should start calling them all special names Steve YzerTrash, David DumPoile, Ray TraShero, Ken HollandBin, Peter TrashArelli...

 

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I don't care what Whack-Mole says or doesn't say. What I care about is that his team has not improved one iota since 2014, and that its prospect pool is nonexistent. Anyone who thinks that that is just Jim Dandy does not seriously want or demand that the team win the Cup. 

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