Tom Gilbert Isn't Getting the Job Done

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Simple fact is, the habs tend to control play while gilbert's on the ice. Say what you want about his lack of production (I wanted to see more), or his soft play (he's unquestionably too soft), but when he's on the ice, we're controlling the flow of play. He's not costing us goals, and he's helping enabling us to score them, even without the assists. Puck possession matters - it's why we dropped Gorges, who cost 1.1 million more than Gilbert.

He did control play in the first ten games or so. I was a fan of the Gilbert signing for that reason. In the last ten games he's been increasingly ineffective. I think some of that has to do with his playing partners, but oh well, Gonchar took his job in the top two pairings. That's hockey.

[Habs30/31]

He did control play in the first ten games or so. I was a fan of the Gilbert signing for that reason. In the last ten games he's been increasingly ineffective. I think some of that has to do with his playing partners, but oh well, Gonchar took his job in the top two pairings. That's hockey.

Yes when season started i was pleasantly surprised. Not a gorges fan at all so Gilbert was a welcome replacement. But he has been awful the last while. Bumped to seventh rightly so. The way MB lands d its not a huge concern.

[ICEWATER77]

not a fan of either gilbert or allen, but atleast gilly the wimp can skate..and make a pass.

[Habs30/31]

not a fan of either gilbert or allen, but atleast gilly the wimp can skate..and make a pass.

yea gilly, allen and weaver have the parts to make up one defenceman.

[ICEWATER77]

yep, I forgot about dream weaver..yeah, him too

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Gilbert was pencilled in for a top-4 role. That is his profile - low-maintenance, soft, not especially impressive in any facet of the game, but a guy who can munch a large number of fairly problem-free minutes and maybe help the transition game.

If Gilbert is not in our top-4, then the team has a structural problem at the back end. We are arguably seeing this with has-beens like Gonchar supplanting him. I like Gonchar, respect him as one of the great offensive d-men of his era, and think he still has some gas in the tank. But if I'd told you at the start of the season that Sergei Gonchar would be Gorges's replacement, I'm not sure you'd have been terribly thrilled.

We need Gilbert to be an effective top-4 defenceman.

[Commandant]

Gilbert is still getting nearly 60% Defensive zone starts (at even strength). Amongst the worst on the team.

Despite that, his corsi/fenwick stats are only slightly below the team average.

Weaver and Gilbert are very similar in those aspects. (though Gilbert has faced tougher competition and played more minutes)

Now take a look at Bryan Allen.... He's got some horrid possession stats (with the only exception being saturday's game against Buffalo which Montreal dominated).... We are talking Douglas Murray levels.

Meanwhile, Tinordi and Beaulieu were the two best (Beaulieu at #1) relative corsi players on the team. yes their minutes were sheltered but both were excelling. Beaulieu had 0 puck luck in terms of points though. Then he made one mistake (a bad giveaway to Bennett) and he hasn't played since.

Its pretty clear where the issue is on this defence.

Put allen in the minors

Put weaver as the seventh d filling in for injuries.

Put Beaulieu back in the lineup.

Get FASTER on the back end immediately. Cause right now, the defense is unbearably slow, and that is killing them... Allen skates like he's in molasses... Markov, Gonchar, and Emelin are slow. Weaver is slow. Gilbert is decent but not fast. Subban is a great skater.

Take out Allen for Nate and you can lineup like this.

Markov - Subban

Nate - Gonchar

Emelin - Gilbert

And have puck moving and speed on every pair. Your second and third pair could play about the same number of minutes as well.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Agree 99%.

I like the Emelin - Gonchar pairing and Nate - Gilbert pairings.

[Guest Stogey24]

Gilbert is still getting nearly 60% Defensive zone starts (at even strength). Amongst the worst on the team.

Despite that, his corsi/fenwick stats are only slightly below the team average.

Weaver and Gilbert are very similar in those aspects. (though Gilbert has faced tougher competition and played more minutes)

Now take a look at Bryan Allen.... He's got some horrid possession stats (with the only exception being saturday's game against Buffalo which Montreal dominated).... We are talking Douglas Murray levels.

Meanwhile, Tinordi and Beaulieu were the two best (Beaulieu at #1) relative corsi players on the team. yes their minutes were sheltered but both were excelling. Beaulieu had 0 puck luck in terms of points though. Then he made one mistake (a bad giveaway to Bennett) and he hasn't played since.

Its pretty clear where the issue is on this defence.

Put allen in the minors

Put weaver as the seventh d filling in for injuries.

Put Beaulieu back in the lineup.

Get FASTER on the back end immediately. Cause right now, the defense is unbearably slow, and that is killing them... Allen skates like he's in molasses... Markov, Gonchar, and Emelin are slow. Weaver is slow. Gilbert is decent but not fast. Subban is a great skater.

Take out Allen for Nate and you can lineup like this.

Markov - Subban

Nate - Gonchar

Emelin - Gilbert

And have puck moving and speed on every pair. Your second and third pair could play about the same number of minutes as well.

At some point in time these kids have to play. Beaulieu had two asists, was a plus player, and had a good scrap in his last five games up. Of course mistakes were made, but he needs to make those mistakes to learn from them.

[DON]

Take out Allen for Nate and you can lineup like this.

Markov - Subban

Nate - Gonchar

Emelin - Gilbert

Yes would make a fine pair, if object is to get Price some extra practice.

Not a chance anyone would want Beaulieu playing 20+minutes; Gonchar was far and away the worst minus d-man on Dallas and Beaulieu was same in Hamilton (battle whether he or Nygren who are worse), so unlikely to defend well at all.

[ICEWATER77]

I'm afraid we're S.O.L then..because I just don't see us staying competitive with a defense like ours.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

After the NYR series, the consensus among fans, pundits and Habs management was that the Habs defense was too slow. Markov and Emelin were shredded to confetti.

In the offseason they got rid of Gorges, Bouillon, and Murray in favor of Gilbert, Weaver and one of Tinordi or Beaulieu.

Fast forward to the season. The Habs are doing great! Then they add Gonchar and Allen.

Crickets. They're way too slow on the backend again.

[ICEWATER77]

I don't think anyone will be grabbing their red pens, Lo-Mag. You're 100% correct

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Gonchar is on one thing, Allen another. The one is a legitimate PP specialist who can still take a regular shift. Allen is depth, nothing more. I don't understand him getting significant minutes with no injuries on our back end.

[dlbalr]

Allen is depth, nothing more. I don't understand him getting significant minutes with no injuries on our back end.

He's not though. He's averaging 12:44 per game and hasn't eclipsed the 15 minute mark in a game with Montreal. For comparison, Murray played over 14 minutes per game last year - Allen's getting less time than that. Heck, even Beaulieu's ATOI this year (and last) is higher than what Allen's getting now. He's a depth defenceman getting less than depth defenceman minutes.

[Habs30/31]

At some point in time these kids have to play. Beaulieu had two asists, was a plus player, and had a good scrap in his last five games up. Of course mistakes were made, but he needs to make those mistakes to learn from them.

Well said. But therrien wont play them. If NB and or Tinordi performed the way they have (but were twenty eight years old and came from other nhl clubs via trade? MT would be playing them the way he plays Gilbert,Allen,Weaver,Gonchar. He seems to take it as a personal insult and threat to his job if a rookie makes a mistake. No secret I am no fan of the coach, having said that his biggest knock is working with prospects . It will go down like this......MB will call up one or both Tinordi and NB and tell MT they are on the club. Then and only then will therrien give them their shot to live and learn from the experience as well as the mistakes.

Ony

[DON]

Those poor kids like the Hudon's, Scherbak's and Lehkonen's better hope Coach-T is fired before they are ready.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I would reiterate that it is NOT self-evident that Tin-Man and Beaulieu are ready. Tinordi, to me, has not seemed to be quite there. His confidence seems fragile and the game seems to overwhelm him at times. Beaulieu doesn't seem to have that problem; I suspect the issue there is more one of maturity and comportment. 'Character issues' have tended to follow him around. Considering that he had to play heavily sheltered, protected minutes, maybe Therrien would rather do that with a guy who isn't a pain in the ass. And maybe a bit more time in the minors will help Nate the Great to learn how to be a professional.

I'm not saying that Beaulieu definitely is a problem. What I'm saying is that we don't know the details, and that it really is entirely possible that there are good reasons for letting the kids marinade a bit longer.

The Gal(l)ys came up and were given big minutes by Therrien from the get-go. Bournival also got a lot of shifts before his game settled back to its natural (mediocre) level. Subban and Eller have been staples of his lineup eating huge minutes, right from the start. So history shows that Therrien is, in fact, willing to play young players. This idea that he is going to dress mediocre veterans over effective, fully ready young guns is not well-founded by anything other than the usual 'Therrien is an idiot' axiomatic reasoning.

Also, Bergevin - who knows a thing or two about player development, having served in this role for the Chicago Blackhawks (maybe you've heard of them?) - agreed that the two kids need more seasoning, and made trades to facilitate that. Your argument is not just with Therrien, then; it's with Zoot Suit.

The D needs Gilbert playing like he can, a lot more than it needs Beaulieu playing sheltered minutes.

[Toronthab]

Gonchar is on one thing, Allen another. The one is a legitimate PP specialist who can still take a regular shift. Allen is depth, nothing more. I don't understand him getting significant minutes with no injuries on our back end.

Funny, I think of Allen more as height rather than depth.

Sorry.

[Toronthab]

I would reiterate that it is NOT self-evident that Tin-Man and Beaulieu are ready. Tinordi, to me, has not seemed to be quite there. His confidence seems fragile and the game seems to overwhelm him at times. Beaulieu doesn't seem to have that problem; I suspect the issue there is more one of maturity and comportment. 'Character issues' have tended to follow him around. Considering that he had to play heavily sheltered, protected minutes, maybe Therrien would rather do that with a guy who isn't a pain in the ass. And maybe a bit more time in the minors will help Nate the Great to learn how to be a professional.

I'm not saying that Beaulieu definitely is a problem. What I'm saying is that we don't know the details, and that it really is entirely possible that there are good reasons for letting the kids marinade a bit longer.

The Gal(l)ys came up and were given big minutes by Therrien from the get-go. Bournival also got a lot of shifts before his game settled back to its natural (mediocre) level. Subban and Eller have been staples of his lineup eating huge minutes, right from the start. So history shows that Therrien is, in fact, willing to play young players. This idea that he is going to dress mediocre veterans over effective, fully ready young guns is not well-founded by anything other than the usual 'Therrien is an idiot' axiomatic reasoning.

Also, Bergevin - who knows a thing or two about player development, having served in this role for the Chicago Blackhawks (maybe you've heard of them?) - agreed that the two kids need more seasoning, and made trades to facilitate that. Your argument is not just with Therrien, then; it's with Zoot Suit.

The D needs Gilbert playing like he can, a lot more than it needs Beaulieu playing sheltered minutes.

Like he said.

[Machine of Loving Grace]

Those poor kids like the Hudon's, Scherbak's and Lehkonen's better hope Coach-T is fired before they are ready.

Hudon is playing with Lefevbre who is much worse of a coach than Therrien. And he's excelling.

Patience needs to be a virtue in Montreal.

[DON]

You sure Lefebvre is much worse? (possibly for sure?)

You think Scotty Bowman would do better with same lineup and mandate from Quebec-Habs Braintrust?

Maybe Hudon is excelling, simply because he is one of few on team who actually are very good prospects (Andrighetto also doing well and had good rookie year).

de la Rose is doing OK, but was never expected to be big offensive star and will be interesting to see how he is by end of year.

But agree patience aint HabFans strong suit (by definition fanatics not calm and realistic type, so no surprise or change expected)

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

You sure Lefebvre is much worse? (possibly for sure?)

You think Scotty Bowman would do better with same lineup and mandate from Quebec-Habs Braintrust?

Maybe Hudon is excelling, simply because he is one of few on team who actually are very good prospects (Andrighetto also doing well and had good rookie year).

de la Rose is doing OK, but was never expected to be big offensive star and will be interesting to see how he is by end of year.

But agree patience aint HabFans strong suit (by definition fanatics not calm and realistic type, so no surprise or change expected)

Yeah, well, there's a large segment of the fan-base that just plain believes that ANY high-profile prospect is AUTOMATICALLY, by definition, ready for full-time NHL duty; there is never any rational reason not to give them big NHL minutes. So it follows that if they don't get minutes, the only explanation is that the coach is a jackass with n irrational hard-on for marginal veterans.

Obviously I think this mindset is off-base.

[BlueKross]

You sure Lefebvre is much worse? (possibly for sure?)

You think Scotty Bowman would do better with same lineup and mandate from Quebec-Habs Braintrust?

Maybe Hudon is excelling, simply because he is one of few on team who actually are very good prospects (Andrighetto also doing well and had good rookie year).

de la Rose is doing OK, but was never expected to be big offensive star and will be interesting to see how he is by end of year.

But agree patience aint HabFans strong suit (by definition fanatics not calm and realistic type, so no surprise or change expected)

De La Rose is in Hamilton at 19,--- the rest of 19 year olds are still playing junior

[JoeLassister]

Yeah, well, there's a large segment of the fan-base that just plain believes that ANY high-profile prospect is AUTOMATICALLY, by definition, ready for full-time NHL duty; there is never any rational reason not to give them big NHL minutes. So it follows that if they don't get minutes, the only explanation is that the coach is a jackass with n irrational hard-on for marginal veterans.

Obviously I think this mindset is off-base.

Not big NHL minutes. Just regular NHL minutes.

Like Alec Martinez at 22 yo, Roman Josi at 22, Ryan Ellis at 22. and on and on and on. Regular NHL duty.