Gretzky Over Rated

[markierung]

I was reading the Hockey news issue about the top 10 players of all time from every team. I hate this. I hate that his jersey is retired league wide. I hate that he is handed the job of General Manager for team Canada whenever he feels up to it. I hate that nobody in the media wants to admit that he isn't a good coach. I hate that he was handed the C in Edmonton while everybody knew that Messier ran the show. I especially hate that people label him as the greatest player of all time.

I'll start by saying that he was an amazing player. One of the best over. But to unilaterally say that he is the best there is, was and ever will be makes me puke.

Gretzky had an incredible team around him. Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Simpson, Fuhr. He was protected by Dave Semenko (one of the scariest guys in league history). The refs protected him. Players were afraid to hit him. In his era, the goalies were not as good as they were in the past in relation to the skill level of the players, and definitely not at the level they are now in relation to the players. To make it even worse, Gretzky played with the Curved stick at a time when goalie equipment was still relatively small.

Bobby Orr changed how defensemen play the game and what's expected from them. He was dominant both offensively and defensively.

Mario Lemieux had to defend himself and play through injuries his whole career.

Gordie Howe, who previously held the goal record, had to protect himself on the Ice.

Bob Gainey was the greatest Defensive forward in NHL History. The Russian Ice hockey federation modeled their Red Army teams by Gainey. DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!

Edmonton won a cup without Gretzky the year after he left.

MAURICE RICHARD, played with a flat stick, in an era where opposing teams were swinging at his head, the refs were against him, the league was against him, and he had to practically drag players on his back to score a goal, which he actually did do against detroit.

Greatest players of all time?

1. Richard

2. Orr

3. Howe

4. Lemieux

5. Gretzky

6. Gainey

7. Roy

8. Messier

9. Morenz

10. Harvey

Gretzky is over rated. Yes, he was great. Yes, i would love him on my team. His number does not deserve universal retirement. Nobody is bigger than the game. Gretksy had tremendous skill but received a lot of help from the league. The top 3 guys on my list had to defend themselves. Nobody else on the list get the same recognition although many of them practically carried teams to the stanley cup on their own. Orr with Boston, Gainey in 86, Roy in 93, Messier in 94. Gretz never did that. He couldn't beat a hot goalie in 93.

And i can't stand that the hockey establishment now credits him with having a great hockey mind by giving him control of Team Canada and nobody questiones him about the coyotes. The 2002 team Canada just barely one, and the 06 team was a disaster. I won't even mention the Coyotes.

He gets way too much credit. Yes he has the all time scoring records. I think we have seen throughout all sports that scoring isn't everything and it doesn't help you win everything.

[BTH]

Great post, though that's a controversial list. I don't see how anyone can top Orr.

I think he is definitely overrated and given way too much credit, especially since his retirement. He was a great player but isn't, and never was, a great hockey mind. It was a big mistake for him to become an NHL coach, his stint with Phoenix will only taint his legacy.

[Dirty Harry]

Definitely agree Gretzky was overrated for all the reasons you listed.

[Pierre the Great]

Lemieux was the better player.

then the arguement against that is that, if gretsky never took a shot in the nhl, he'd still have the most points in history. I think and i know that's a product of crappy goalie playing in the 80's with an nhl that didn't care about defence and a stacked offensive line up with the oilers.

on top of that, he killed the nhl by going to la and causing all of its problems.

He was on pace to have over 3000 points, in my opinion.

[MAK]

gotta give more love to gretzky: he was 185 lbs at best. all he did was rewrite the wjole nhl recors book.

come on , dont tell he was good because he had semenko on his side, puh lease. I'm sure D.S. thanks gretzky every night before going to bed for the chance he gave him to be be somebode in this league

I won't argue the other players except howe before gretzky??? come on !!

[markierung]

my arguement is that all the other players played in an era where they either had to defend themselves or had to deal with goalies who were for the most part better in relation to offensive players.

Look, I think Gretzky was great. Top 5 of all time for sure. But scoring pts doesn't make you the greatest ever. That label carries something else along with it.

[JMMR]

Gretzky will be believed to be the best player of all time and that argument can be made but I agree with the OP he is not, there are a few guys I would love to have on my team before him.

[Pierre the Great]

Here's how I answer the question of "the greatest"

Did the person in question, revolutionize the way the game was played?

[markierung]

he didn't. He just played the way most players of the time did, just faster and better and free of worries because he was protected by everyone

[johnnyhasbeen]

Glad you included Harvey, will always remember him controlling the flow of the games I watched as a wee kid in the 60's. He was my favorite at the time. Surprised nobody mentioned Cam Neely though.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

It really depends on how you define "the greatest player of all time".

Gretzky did have a great team around him but the fact remains that he CRUSHED almost every single hockey record there is. Lemieux also had a great team around him and if he stayed healthy and continued to play with Jagr then he might have bested some of Gretzky's records.

The other guys on your list were completely different types of players. They were more complete, all around hockey players (I'm agreeing with your post). Where Gretzky and Lemieux's jobs were to score the other guys had to do it all. The game was totally different as well. The speed of the game is not even comparable and the talent pool has never been larger with Russians and Europeans in the market like never before.

Steve Yzerman deserves a strong look to be on the list as well. He is one of the most complete hockey players of all time.

I do not disagree with your list nor am I defending Gretzky but it really depends on your perspective.

[TruthMonger]

Definitely agree Gretzky was overrated for all the reasons you listed.

I have a hard time buying into the notion that Gretzky was overrated or that he was a product of his surrounding cast. HE was the one who made the people around him stars. Here are some interesting numbers to demonstrate the depth of skill and what he brought to the early Oilers.

In '80-81' he has 165 points, which was 89 points more than the next best on the team, Kurri.

In '81-'82' he had 212 points, which was 107 better than the next best on the team, Glenn Anderson, and he had 42 goals more than the next best Oiler (Messier).

In '82-'83' he had 196 points, which was 90 points better than the next best on the team, Messier.

In '83-'84' he had 205 points, which was 79 better than the next best on the team, Coffey.

In '84-'85' he had 208 points, which was 73 better than the next best on the team, Kurri.

In '85-'86' he had 215 points, which was 77 better than the next best on the team, Coffey.

In '86-'87' he had 183 points, which was 75 better than the next best on the team, Kurri.

The truth is, while there was more scoring in the 80's, it wasn't like every player was getting 150 points a season. The overall scoring numbers weren't that far off from where they are now....with the exception of Gretzky (and a couple of Lemieux seasons near the end of the decade).

From 1981-1987, Gretz beat the second highest scorer in the entire league by 65, 72, 79, 73, 64, 75. These numbers are unfathomable by today's standards.

Edited November 10, 2007 by TruthMonger

[Athlétique.Canadien]

it's difficult to really gauge this. Players are special for different reasons. Last night on TSN they were talking about Modano being the greatest goal scorer in USA history. At no time during the broadcast was Bossy's name even mentioned.

Whatever.

Bossy was like Richard. A pure deadly goal scorer. Lemieux was moreso too. Gretz was more of playmaker and less of a goal scorer. Which is what makes Wayne the Great one because even though his style was playmaker, he scored a ton! The all around nightmare.

Gretzky vs Lemieux in their primes goes to (IMO): Gretzky But, Wayne wasn't known for barging through defenceman like it was just another day at the office quite like Mario did. Gretzky could pylon. But barging through (especially when you make Bourque look foolish) is something 99 lacked.

[Punkned]

I have a hard time buying into the notion that Gretzky was overrated or that he was a product of his surrounding cast. HE was the one who made the people around him stars. Here are some interesting numbers to demonstrate the depth of skill and what he brought to the early Oilers.

In '80-81' he has 165 points, which was 89 points more than the next best on the team, Kurri.

In '81-'82' he had 212 points, which was 107 better than the next best on the team, Glenn Anderson, and he had 42 goals more than the next best Oiler (Messier).

In '82-'83' he had 196 points, which was 90 points better than the next best on the team, Messier.

In '83-'84' he had 205 points, which was 79 better than the next best on the team, Coffey.

In '84-'85' he had 208 points, which was 73 better than the next best on the team, Kurri.

In '85-'86' he had 215 points, which was 77 better than the next best on the team, Coffey.

In '86-'87' he had 183 points, which was 75 better than the next best on the team, Kurri.

The truth is, while there was more scoring in the 80's, it wasn't like every player was getting 150 points a season. The overall scoring numbers weren't that far off from where they are now....with the exception of Gretzky (and a couple of Lemieux seasons near the end of the decade).

From 1981-1987, Gretz beat the second highest scorer in the entire league by 65, 72, 79, 73, 64, 75. These numbers are unfathomable by today's standards.

:clap:

I'd add that Gretzky scored 97 and 90 points in the 96-97 and 97-98 seasons at age 35-36 years old! ...In the period with probably the most hooking and the least scoring. And don't say it's because he played on an NYR packed team: he was the team's scoring leader those two years.

This guy is just the best offensive player in the NHL history.

I agree that he hasn't proven anything as a coach or DG...

[Mils]

Here's how I answer the question of "the greatest"

Did the person in question, revolutionize the way the game was played?

By that theory, then Roy should be up at the top, if not #1 (buttefly goaltender). And Bernie Geoffrin not far behind him (Slapshot). Then Jacque Plante (Facemasks). Revolutionizing the game does not equal greatness. They're two separate categories.

Perhaps a huge group of Habs fans see Maurice Richard through rosy lenses? He's over-rated on these boards, that's for sure. (Guy LaFleur had more career goals) All of this from the same group that wanted to crown Jose Theodore the best goalie ever after he won one Hart trophy.

Lemieux may be the only forward who could touch Gretzky, but injuries are a factor when "greatest" is considered. Trying to make a comparison to Orr is apples to oranges. 99 was better than Mr. Hockey. The numbers Gretz put up were hands-down domination. Nobody else is close. Gretzky made players around him better and took advantage of having some excellent players around him in Edmonton and L.A. Messier, Kurri, Robitaille, Tikkanen all were made even better because they were on the ice at the same time Gretzky was. He has just about every offensive record you can conceive of, a fistfull of stanley cup rings, and awards and accolades coming out his ears. He did everything, and he did it without a commanding physical presence and facing other teams' best defense every night.

As for this "did me make his teammates better, or did they make him better" thing, it's probably shades of grey. When you have as many assists as Gretzky did, you are going to, by default, have others around you with high point totals, because assists (unlike goals) require another player to participate. It's a circular argument because you can just say, "He got a lot of assists because there were goal scorers around him" and reply to that with, "There were goal scorers around him because he got a lot of assists" and so on.

But let's not forget Gretzky scored more goals than any other player too.

[Colin]

FYI, they changed the rules because of Gretzky. He was too dominant.

[BTH]

I think Gretzky was #2 behind Bobby Orr.

He broke 100 points 6 years in a row, as a defenceman, at a time that defenceman didn't score - he lead the league in scoring for two of those seasons. If Orr could score 46 goals and 139 points in a season as a defenceman, could he have broken 200 points like Gretzky did, as a forward? Who knows, but the point is moot because Orr could also play defence - his +/- ratings were just as impressive as his point totals. In the 1970-71 season he finished with a ridiculous +124 rating. The lowest +/- he ever had in a full season is +54, which would easily be the best in the league nowadays. He won the Conn Smythe in both of his team's Cup runs, going comfortably over a point a game both times.

He's won:

Art Ross Trophy - 2 (1970, 1975)

Hart Memorial - 3 (1970, 1971, 1972)

James Norris Trophy - 8 (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975)

Conn Smythe Trophy - 2 (1970, 1972)

Lester B. Pearson Trophy - 1 (1975)

Calder Trophy - 1 (1967)

Stanley Cup - 2 (1970, 1972)

And he did all this while going through constant injuries and knee surgeries.

It doesn't get any better.

[jetsniper]

BTH is the same as me, only guy ahead of Gretzky is Bobby Orr.

BTH went into detail already but the numbers he put up with such a short career is amazing. If his knee hadn't of cut his career short, who knows what his totals would look like today. A truly amazing player.

[InsaneHABSfan]

And then there are greats who are underrated with their contributions on the ice.

Doug Harvey

Joe Sakic

Howie Morenz

Terry Sawchuck

[markierung]

I don't think Mike Bossy was American

it's difficult to really gauge this. Players are special for different reasons. Last night on TSN they were talking about Modano being the greatest goal scorer in USA history. At no time during the broadcast was Bossy's name even mentioned.

Whatever.

Bossy was like Richard. A pure deadly goal scorer. Lemieux was moreso too. Gretz was more of playmaker and less of a goal scorer. Which is what makes Wayne the Great one because even though his style was playmaker, he scored a ton! The all around nightmare.

Gretzky vs Lemieux in their primes goes to (IMO): Gretzky But, Wayne wasn't known for barging through defenceman like it was just another day at the office quite like Mario did. Gretzky could pylon. But barging through (especially when you make Bourque look foolish) is something 99 lacked.

Bossy was born in Montreal

[ch_nl]

Wayne Gretzky is an icon. 99 is responsible for NHL being what it is today. I guess most north americans will never realize this.

It may be true that the myth is greater than the player, but Gretzky will always be The Great One.

[markierung]

How is that a good thing. The NHL is a disaster now because many American fans (not all of them) are only wowed by flashy players who put the puck in the net. I'm not talking about real American fans, i'm talking about the casual fan who will only support a winning team that scores a lot of goals.

Gretzky going to LA hurt the NHL by giving it incentives to move to non hockey markets.

[Mils]

How is that a good thing. The NHL is a disaster now because many American fans (not all of them) are only wowed by flashy players who put the puck in the net. I'm not talking about real American fans, i'm talking about the casual fan who will only support a winning team that scores a lot of goals.

Gretzky going to LA hurt the NHL by giving it incentives to move to non hockey markets.

There is no way you could convince me that Wayne Gretzky's collective effect on the NHL is negative. Given, the fact that he went to a big U.S. market is destined to irritate a lot of Canadian "traditionalists," you're letting that cloud your view. Without #99, hockey is somewhere between bowling and Soccer in popularity, never gets an ESPN contract in the first place (and they'll return to ESPN), and remains a niche sport played in 15 different pro/semi-pro leagues across Canada.

[markierung]

Listen. I'm not saying Hockey in the USA or expansion is a bad thing.

There are plenty of incredible markets in the US. New York, Long Island, Phili, Boston, Chicago, St-Louis, Denver, Pittsburg, Minni, Detroit.

Gretzky brought hockey to california and encouraged expansion into the sun-belt.

Even without this ESPN contract, the NHL can still afford to pay players more than any other league in the world. They can pay this money even with many of the sun-belt teams losing money and threatening to move. The NHL was strong b4 Gretzky "revolutionized hockey" and in my opinion (even though i think he was a phenomenal player), he inadvertedly caused a lot of bad

[Mils]

Listen. I'm not saying Hockey in the USA or expansion is a bad thing.

There are plenty of incredible markets in the US. New York, Long Island, Phili, Boston, Chicago, St-Louis, Denver, Pittsburg, Minni, Detroit.

Gretzky brought hockey to california and encouraged expansion into the sun-belt.

Even without this ESPN contract, the NHL can still afford to pay players more than any other league in the world. They can pay this money even with many of the sun-belt teams losing money and threatening to move. The NHL was strong b4 Gretzky "revolutionized hockey" and in my opinion (even though i think he was a phenomenal player), he inadvertedly caused a lot of bad

You know that Alex Rodriguez will sign a contract in the coming weeks for $25-$30 million a year right??