markierung Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 The criticisms of Saku Koivu have been well documented for the past few years. Aside from the idiot language arguements, it has mainly been concentrated on his point production. People have complained that Koivu has been a horrible 1st line centre and is grossely overpayed. I would like to make the case however, that although Koivu is probably not the greatest 1st line C, he would be the worst and he has been, all year... probably the best 2nd line C in the league at one of the most reasonable prices. Aside from Malkin (who is more of a 1B), there is not a single 2nd line C in the NHL who is statistically superior to Saku Koivu. Although Daniel Briere has 71 pts to Koivu's 56, he is a -23 with a 7 million dollar price tag. Brad Richards has only 61 pts, on is a -27. He too has a 7 million dollar price tag. Chris Drury, who has the same amount of pts as Koivu also has a 7 million dollar price and has the same +/-. Koivu has more pts and a similar if not better +/- than Brendan Morrow, Any Mcdonald, Doug Weight, Mike Fisher, Kyle Wellwood, Tim Connolly, Mike Cammalleri, Robert Lang, Mike Comrie, Patrick Marleau, Steven Weiss, Matt Cullen, Sergei Fedorov, Jochen Hecht and the list goes on. Also, we can't forget that Koivu makes as much is not less than many of these players. We also shouldn't forget that Koivu is, although having a lesser year than last year, having a better or similar season compared to some of the other 1st line C in the league; Tkachuk, Modano, and Bouchard. Keep in mind that I'm not writing this in reaction to anything I have read in these forums. I was just talking to some guys form work who watch 110% and read the journal. The next time anyone talks about Koivu not being good enough for this team, just bring up the information in this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Good read, although I'm sure there will be many who will just use it as another outlet to get their digs. I agree with what you wrote, plus I think Saku brings a better attitude than alot of these guys. Plus I dont need to bring up his story, and how great of a story it would be for him to win a cup (Love to see him as the first non-Canadian.....eat that Mats). I sure hope he is back soon. Not many teams could lose their 2nd line centre and captain...and go all the way (though I think we can win a round). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortHanded Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Thanks Markierung. I'd have to completely agree... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I think Evgeni Malkin would disagree, hehe. Of course, he's only a 2nd line center based on a technicality, like Forsberg for many years in Colorado. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan84 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 No i dont think Koivu is the best second line centre in the League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Although Daniel Briere has 71 pts to Koivu's 56, he is a -23 with a 7 million dollar price tag. Brad Richards has only 61 pts, on is a -27. He too has a 7 million dollar price tag. Chris Drury, who has the same amount of pts as Koivu also has a 7 million dollar price and has the same +/-. Koivu has more pts and a similar if not better +/- than Brendan Morrow, Any Mcdonald, Doug Weight, Mike Fisher, Kyle Wellwood, Tim Connolly, Mike Cammalleri, Robert Lang, Mike Comrie, Patrick Marleau, Steven Weiss, Matt Cullen, Sergei Fedorov, Jochen Hecht and the list goes on. Also, we can't forget that Koivu makes as much is not less than many of these players. Well if we're talking price tags, then yes he is a better value than Drury. But Drury having the same number of points on such a lower scoring team makes him a better player, in my opinion. We also shouldn't forget that Koivu is, although having a lesser year than last year, having a better or similar season compared to some of the other 1st line C in the league; Tkachuk, Modano, and Bouchard. Modano is a second line centre, Ribeiro is the first liner. I think Evgeni Malkin would disagree, hehe. Of course, he's only a 2nd line centre based on a technicality, like Forsberg for many years in Colorado. Or Crosby, there's your best 2nd line C. Let's not forget that Koivu is only being compared to other 2nd liners this year because he was outclassed as the number one C by Plekanec, and lost that position. A better comparison would be to rate each team's top two centermen together. I think that would put Montreal a bit above average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 No i dont think Koivu is the best second line centre in the League. There is certainly plenty of argument against him being the best 2nd line centre. But I think the point I got from this is that he is a damn good one in comparsion to that of a lot of top teams, and is often shot down as 1st line centre (when he is actually 2nd now). More so than where his absolute rank is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I don't think there is much argument that Saku is a decent 2nd line centre. Most people just didn't believe that he is a quality number 1 centre. The issue I see is that as good as Pleks is, he is not a GREAT number 1 centre either. Worse, what will he be without a Kovalev on his line? I believe that Kovy is making Pleks better, not the other way around. I still believe that there are better centers then either of them available out there. If we manage to get one, I would think that Pleks would slide down to a great number 2 guy, and Koivu would be without a job. Of course, none of that might happen if we don't get a better centre. Imagine if we got Vinnie or Malkin. Would a Malkin and Pleks combo not be vastly superior then a Pleks / Koivu model? I think so. And you can probably swap in several other guys besides Malkin. Vinnie is another. I mention Malkin because at some point soon, Pitts is going to trade him. They can't afford him and Crosby anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markierung Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 I don't think there is much argument that Saku is a decent 2nd line centre. Most people just didn't believe that he is a quality number 1 centre. The issue I see is that as good as Pleks is, he is not a GREAT number 1 centre either. Worse, what will he be without a Kovalev on his line? I believe that Kovy is making Pleks better, not the other way around. I still believe that there are better centers then either of them available out there. If we manage to get one, I would think that Pleks would slide down to a great number 2 guy, and Koivu would be without a job. Of course, none of that might happen if we don't get a better centre. Imagine if we got Vinnie or Malkin. Would a Malkin and Pleks combo not be vastly superior then a Pleks / Koivu model? I think so. And you can probably swap in several other guys besides Malkin. Vinnie is another. I mention Malkin because at some point soon, Pitts is going to trade him. They can't afford him and Crosby anymore. But, but its unrealistic that a team would have two guys who are number 1 worthy. Im talking about current league and economic dynamics, Koivu is one of if not the best 2nd line C. Obviously Id rather have the sakic/forseberg combo of the 90s but its unrealistic No i dont think Koivu is the best second line centre in the League. a reason would be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Imagine if we got Vinnie or Malkin. Would a Malkin and Pleks combo not be vastly superior then a Pleks / Koivu model? I think so. And you can probably swap in several other guys besides Malkin. Vinnie is another. I mention Malkin because at some point soon, Pitts is going to trade him. They can't afford him and Crosby anymore. If Pittsburgh is willing to spend to the cap, yes, they can afford both those guys. The cap is going to suprass $60m in 2009-10, the year of Malkin's new contract. Crosby's locked in at $8.7m for 4 of those years... Even if Malkin signs for $10m that's less than 1/3 of the payroll on 2 super-elite players, which is managable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Notice how the media in Montreal is not as negative about Koivu now that he's a second line Centre! I thikn that is why he was criticised often before. It wasn't Saku's fault, but he isn't a 1st line centre but he's a damn good second line centre. I'd say he's a top 3 second line centre in the league! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafikz Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 The criticisms of Saku Koivu have been well documented for the past few years. Aside from the idiot language arguements, it has mainly been concentrated on his point production. People have complained that Koivu has been a horrible 1st line centre and is grossely overpayed. I would like to make the case however, that although Koivu is probably not the greatest 1st line C, he would be the worst and he has been, all year... probably the best 2nd line C in the league at one of the most reasonable prices. Aside from Malkin (who is more of a 1B), there is not a single 2nd line C in the NHL who is statistically superior to Saku Koivu. Although Daniel Briere has 71 pts to Koivu's 56, he is a -23 with a 7 million dollar price tag. Brad Richards has only 61 pts, on is a -27. He too has a 7 million dollar price tag. Chris Drury, who has the same amount of pts as Koivu also has a 7 million dollar price and has the same +/-. Koivu has more pts and a similar if not better +/- than Brendan Morrow, Any Mcdonald, Doug Weight, Mike Fisher, Kyle Wellwood, Tim Connolly, Mike Cammalleri, Robert Lang, Mike Comrie, Patrick Marleau, Steven Weiss, Matt Cullen, Sergei Fedorov, Jochen Hecht and the list goes on. Also, we can't forget that Koivu makes as much is not less than many of these players. We also shouldn't forget that Koivu is, although having a lesser year than last year, having a better or similar season compared to some of the other 1st line C in the league; Tkachuk, Modano, and Bouchard. Keep in mind that I'm not writing this in reaction to anything I have read in these forums. I was just talking to some guys form work who watch 110% and read the journal. The next time anyone talks about Koivu not being good enough for this team, just bring up the information in this post. Excellent post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan84 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I still think he is often weak on the Puck. He seems to make some blunders with the puck out there. I like him but it's becoming hard to defend him anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 What worries me a bit about Koivu is that I am not convinced he will age gracefully, or into a lesser role. He is already struggling with puck handling and strength (getting slow, easy to knock off the puck, etc).. It is just the kind of player he is. He is a high tempo scrapper, and those guys tend to fall apart fast. I am not sure he has more then a year or two left. I don't see him going into a "role player" type position. I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire in a few years rather then fade away. On the other had, maybe he will spend a summer with a new fitness routine and come back super strong.. you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I've been among Koivu's critics, but always as regards to a first-line ctr. I thought after a couple of years of watching him that he looked to be a nice 2nd-line ctr; and though it wasn't his fault, being the 1st line for the CH with, at the time, the highest salary is going to make you a lightning-rod on a team which usually missed the playoffs. Now he is an effective player on the second line. He had, again, a long slump 2/3 into the season this year, but we all want him to recover and help us lift the Cup this year, no doubt. As for the future, it looks very limited for him, but we'll worry about that after the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Notice how the media in Montreal is not as negative about Koivu now that he's a second line Centre! I thikn that is why he was criticised often before. It wasn't Saku's fault, but he isn't a 1st line centre but he's a damn good second line centre. I'd say he's a top 3 second line centre in the league! That has more to do with the Habs being a first place team than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 This may not be his best year points-wise, but I'll take him as a number one centre on my team any day. Remember, not every team can have a Crosby on their top line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 He is definitely not the best second line centre in the league, he is a good one though. As he ages, we would like to bump him down to the third line by acquiring a better second liner, or a 1st liner that could bump Plekanec down a line. That would leave us looking really strong at C, when you throw Chipchura on to the fourth line. But I'm not convinced Koivu will be able to have 60 point seasons for much longer. I could see him Joe Juneau-ing and converting himself into a purely defensive player as he grows older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markierung Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 He is definitely not the best second line centre in the league, he is a good one though. As he ages, we would like to bump him down to the third line by acquiring a better second liner, or a 1st liner that could bump Plekanec down a line. That would leave us looking really strong at C, when you throw Chipchura on to the fourth line. But I'm not convinced Koivu will be able to have 60 point seasons for much longer. I could see him Joe Juneau-ing and converting himself into a purely defensive player as he grows older. So then who is currently, right now, having a better second line C season then Koivu? And don't use Malkin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smon Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 So then who is currently, right now, having a better second line C season then Koivu? And don't use Malkin. Richards might be, his numbers are pretty woeful at plus minus due to his playing for the fantastic Tampa Bay Lightning. But your general tone is absolutely right. Currently, of the top 30 scorers at centre in the league, Montreal has Plekanec at #21 and Koivu at #27. The only other teams with more than one in the top 30 are Dallas, Philadelphia and NYR. So Koivu was doing pretty darn good for a #2 centre. a 1st liner that could bump Plekanec down a line. I think that might have been Gainey's intentions when he struck out for Briere in the offseason. When it happens, the team will look even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 What worries me a bit about Koivu is that I am not convinced he will age gracefully, or into a lesser role. He is already struggling with puck handling and strength (getting slow, easy to knock off the puck, etc).. It is just the kind of player he is. He is a high tempo scrapper, and those guys tend to fall apart fast. I am not sure he has more then a year or two left. I don't see him going into a "role player" type position. I wouldn't be surprised to see him retire in a few years rather then fade away. On the other had, maybe he will spend a summer with a new fitness routine and come back super strong.. you never know. This is probably the most consistently intelligent thread I've read on Koivu. Finally, some realistic assessments instead of bashing or worship. And Brobin, I tend to agree with you on this - I've been worried all along that when Koivu's much-damaged body does start to go, it will be a dramatic collapse, in the fashion of Kirk Muller (who went from being a 90-point guy to a 60-point guy and then a third-line grinder in a mere two seasons). Fortunately, Koivu's contract expires next season, and by then we'll have a better read on where Saks' game stands. But Koivu as a grinder? Nope, can't see it. More likely, his career will wind down in spurts: lots and lots of injuries, interspersed with stretches of mediocre play in which everyone keeps hoping he'll find his groove, and also some stretches where he looks like the old Koivu. This will prove frustrating for all concerned, as he and his fans look to those 'good' stretches and the hope that he can get consistently healthy as proof that he's still 'got it,' while others fume at his mediocrity, and he slowly loses the confidence of the coaching staff. Call this the Trevor Linden scenario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markierung Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 This is probably the most consistently intelligent thread I've read on Koivu. Finally, some realistic assessments instead of bashing or worship. Ya, i find that if you start it off by a really long first post, people who don't know much about hockey usually stay out of the conversation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Ya, i find that if you start it off by a really long first post, people who don't know much about hockey usually stay out of the conversation lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) I tend to agree with brobin and Cucumber. BUt I still believe Saku has 2 more years left in the tank(after this year) I also know that his contract ends at the end of next season. the million dollar question is....will he accept a 1 year contract (after next year???) I highly doubt it! Would he accept a 2 year deal? Next year at this time, Saku will be 34 yesrs old. I think he's got enough juice in the tank until 35 maybe 36. DO the Habs take a chance and sign him to a 2 year deal next year? do they take an even bigger chance by signing him to a 3 year deal??? i don't know, but like Cucumber said, next year by this time, we'll have a better idea of what Saku has left in the gas tank! Edited April 4, 2008 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markierung Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) i think he signs for 3 years. Unless he wins the cup b4 the end of next year. If he doesn't, he plays until he can, hoping the youth completely develops Edited April 4, 2008 by markierung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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