Real Leadership

[JoeLassister]

any line with Marc Recchi on it was better than Gilmour-Petrov-Zednik

[KoZed]

But that's what I mean. They were one of the best lines of my generation. Last years club, and this years obviously have much better combos, but yeah. Corson - Koivu - Recchi was pretty good too, but hard to remember when at least one of them wasn't injured .

Corson v. 2.0 sucked big hairy balls. The first version was much better. Him and Richer were exciting to watch.

[ForumGhost]

Meh, if you are so intent on seeing violence and rough play and fighting, I advise you tune into the another team's game because that isn't (and has never been) the identity of the Habs. I don't want a goon squad, thank you.

[Easy Ryder]

Having one player who drop the gloves in three games and there are complaint about a goon squad ??

Nobody will try to take talented players head off with two players to defend their teammates.

Intensity level will raise from little players like Sergei Kost if he can be aggressive on the ice without

being pushed around by guys 1 feet taller than him and 60 pounds more.

Like it or not team leadership comes from that part of the game too.

[Fanpuck33]

Meh, if you are so intent on seeing violence and rough play and fighting, I advise you tune into the another team's game because that isn't (and has never been) the identity of the Habs. I don't want a goon squad, thank you.

Who said anything about a goon squad? Team toughness has nothing to do with goonery.

[Chris]

Apparantly Forum Ghost hasn't seen Canadien teams form the past Lemiex, Nilan, Cordic, Robinson, Chelios, Odelin (i'm missing many others) all dropped the gloves numerous times and stood up for team mates. Is that a coincidence when the smurf squads of the late 90's and through 2000's never made it past the forst round. I don't think so.

If you don't want to watch a "goon squad" there is always figure skating.

Until the Habs toughen up including fighting they will not go anywhere in the playoffs.

[sbhatt]

Ugh. I'm so tired of people trying to compare Koivu to Yzerman or Sakic.

Saku is nowhere close to Stevie Y or Burnaby Joe, alright? Nowhere. Not even remotely in the same class.

Yzerman has 3 Stanley Cups, one Conn-Smythe, one Selke, 10 times All-Star, one 1st All-Star Team, one Masterton and 692 goals & 1755 pts in 1514 games (1.16 career PPG).

Sakic has 2 Cups, 1 Conn-Smythe, 1 Hart, 1 Lady-Byng, 12 All-Star games, 3 first All-Star team, and 625 goals & 1641 pts in 1378 career games (1.19 career PPG).

Koivu: no Cup, no Smythe, 1 All-Star game, 1 Masterton and 183 goals & 617 pts in 760 career games (0.81 career PPG).

...never, eeeeever bring up Yzerman and Sakic everytime its time to justify Saku's "calm leadership". Yzerman & Sakic are two of the best centers IN THE HISTORY OF THE NHL. They could lead by their exceptionnal talent alone. They could reply to a vicous hit by putting a goal and setting up two more. Koivu can't.

:clap:

About time someone laid this out. Saku Koivu is a good player, who is sometimes very good. But make no mistake, he's not GREAT. Those guys are GREAT...all-time great.

[sbhatt]

This team has to stop having this attitude that they'll just keep their head down and try to make it through. They need to start facing the opposition right in the eyes and let them know they're there and won't get out of the way.

I agree, this team needs some 'team toughness'....every guy out there on the ice should be ready, willing, and able to inflict pain on anyone daring to take a cheap shot at one of their teammates. They should have the mentality that even if they know they're gonna lose the fight, they have to drop their gloves and deliver at least one decent shot to the perpetrator's mouth...on principle. That's the kind of thing that brings teams together...knowing that each and every guy on that bench is going to have your back no matter who the guy picking on you is...to hell with whether it's Donald Brashear or Sergei Samsonov...the response has to be the same...immediate action.

[KoZed]

Apparantly Forum Ghost hasn't seen Canadien teams form the past Lemiex, Nilan, Cordic, Robinson, Chelios, Odelin (i'm missing many others) all dropped the gloves numerous times and stood up for team mates. Is that a coincidence when the smurf squads of the late 90's and through 2000's never made it past the forst round. I don't think so.

If you don't want to watch a "goon squad" there is always figure skating.

Until the Habs toughen up including fighting they will not go anywhere in the playoffs.

I was about to write just that...

Dont need to be a goon squad. Great Habs teams of the Habs werent goon squads, but they would never get intimidated...

I remember reading in a Habs book about a 1975 pre-season games between the Habs and the Flyers. Philly had just won its 2nd Cup in a row, it was the height of the Broad Street Bullies Era. Everybody was scared of them.

But that pre-season game, about every Habs player in uniform dropped the gloves in a bench clearing brawl. Didnt matter if it was Lafleur or Risebrough. I think it was Dryden who said later that "That pre-season game is when we won the Cup. They (Flyers) knew we wouldnt be intimidated by them. We were more talented, but we could also be as tough as them."

And how about the epic battles between the Habs & Nords? You think the current Habs team could survive that kind of rivalry? You think they could hold their own in a Good Friday Massacre against Boston or Philly or San Jose?

The 1993 Habs werent exceptionnaly big or tough; but they were exceptionnaly mentaly tough. Nobody could intimidate them or push them around. They had Roberge, Odelein, Keane, Ewen, Muller, Schneider, Haller, LeClair... all guys who were tough and would drop the gloves if necessary.

Serge Savard was 100% right when he said a few weeks ago that he thought the Habs lacked toughness. Savard wasnt a goon as a player, didnt put goon squads together as a GM, but he knows you need toughness -- physical and especially mental --.

[ForumGhost]

I don't know what team you guys are watching, because I see guys like Komi, Bouillon, Kostopoulos stand up for team mates every game and drop the gloves when they need to. Guys like Gorges, Sergei, Lapierre, and Begin also get into other teams faces too. So to say that the team can't stand up for themselves is completely unfounded. It's not their fault they don't win every boxing match they get into. They aren't fighters. So if you'd like, you could replace them all with flat-footed tough guys but it would essentially be destroying the team's identity of being a fast-paced, offensive team.

We have an enforcer, but he's injured. Not much you can do about that.

[KoZed]

I don't know what team you guys are watching, because I see guys like Komi, Bouillon, Kostopoulos stand up for team mates every game and drop the gloves when they need to. Guys like Gorges, Sergei, Lapierre, and Begin also get into other teams faces too. So to say that the team can't stand up for themselves is completely unfounded. It's not their fault they don't win every boxing match they get into. They aren't fighters. So if you'd like, you could replace them all with flat-footed tough guys but it would essentially be destroying the team's identity of being a fast-paced, offensive team.

We have an enforcer, but he's injured. Not much you can do about that.

You think anyone is scared of hitting our guys because "Bouillon's gonna make him pay"?

Gorges got flattened TWICE vs the Kings. Did anyone asked for retribution? Nobody. Did anyone made Lucic's life miserable when he injured Komo and showboated? Nobody. How many times does Price gets run over and nobody does a damn thing except some little push & shove & chit-chat after the whistle?

I dont want to see Sergei only go after Grabo or anyone that disses his brother. I want him to lineup some opposition's best players and make their life hard when Higgins or Saku gets pasted. I dont want Markov to pass his glove in the face of a guy that just ran price and give him evil looks. I want him to jump on his back and shove his face down and make him taste some ice. I dont want Higgins to go stand around the opponent's goalie after he made a save, I want him to run him over like we get it done to us.

I want to see the Habs earn and get respect from the other top teams and to put the fear of God into the weakest teams, neither of which is true right now. Nobody fears or respects the Habs.

[ForumGhost]

So, with BGL out, how do you expect them to do that? Sure, it would be nice if we could mess everyone's s*** up when they cross the line, but we frankly don't have a lot of big, aggressive guys out there. We aren't the Ducks or the Bruins here. Teams like that are built to be big, tough and imposing. Teams like us are built to be fast and offensive. Unfortunately, unless you have a team full of Gordie Howes, you can't have both, especially in the new NHL where more and more tough guys are becoming obsolete. Maybe I'm the minority here, but I would prefer winning the game with our offensive talent opposed to striking fear into the hearts of other teams with a bunch of hulking pilons.

[alexstream]

More Begin, Komisarek, Kostopoulos, MaxPac, MaxLap, Gorges

less kost, plex, etc.

the whole NA vs Euro thing all over again.

sad but true.

and don't get that talen b.s.

Aside from Akost, it's all a wash. token money. S.kost or Plex are no better than any guy from any other team and just have less caracter and consistency.

yes no?

am i don cherry?

[KoZed]

Maybe I'm the minority here, but I would prefer winning the game with our offensive talent opposed to striking fear into the hearts of other teams with a bunch of hulking pilons.

No, I do think the same; and I had to defend that philosophy for a long time.

BUT...

That's when we didnt have much of a choice, having a very slim talent pool and on the outside looking in. We were the underdogs and had to play to our strength.

NOW...

We arent just trying to get by anymore. We are trying to challenge for the Cup. And that means having a team that can match up to any one and play any style and impose itself. Never going to achieve that with the team mentality there is right now.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

KoZed has a good point. I just wouldn't blame Koivu for the lack of team toughness, that's all. 'Toughness' being defined here as a refusal to be intimidated or to back down, and to stand up for one's team-mates where called for.

Ironically, to me Koivu is 'tough' in these ways, especially the first. If everyone had Koivu's heart, we'd probably have won by now. And we do have a nucleus of players - Kosto, Lapierre, Komisarek, even guys like Gorges and Bouillon and Begin who scare nobody but also absorb punishment and bounce back as strong as ever, backing down to no one - who have the requisite character. The question is whether we have enough *key players* who have these traits. This is important, because no matter how gutsy your third and fourth lines, it's your top-6 forwards and top-4 defenders who are on the ice for most of the game. If they're not tough, your team isn't.

Sergei Kostitsyn probably has the right character profile, but he just hasn't been good enough this season that it makes any difference. Andrei Kostitsyn doesn't. Plekanec wants to but doesn't. Kovalev is capable of taking guys' heads off (c.f. that wonderful elbowing of Tucker) but only rises to that standard when the moon is aligned with Jupiter or something. That Markov's playoff record is horrible at least suggests that he can be intimidated off his best game. Hamrlik is solid, but sort of a gentle giant and doesn't seem to like the rough going either. Higgins is probably just too brittle to play that way consistently. Tanguay? I doubt it, but I haven't seen him in enough hard-hitting situations to know for sure.

(The O'Byrne bashers might want to take note of the fact that he seems like a guy who could bring the right kind of casual toughness to the core, if he can ever become a top-4 defenceman).

Most of the nucleus of this team may well be too 'soft' in the specified sense. They've shown that they can rally and play tough for specific games and stretches. But what's not clear is that they yet understand how to do it, or are willing to do it, shift in and shift out for 20-30 playoff games, which is what we'd need to win.

Probably Gainey is hoping that guys like Pleks and Kostitsyn (and even Markov, now that he's in the playoffs regularly) will learn both that that's what it takes, and will be willing to grow into the role. This is a reasonable hope with young players. But it would certainly be reassuring to see them doing it day in and day out during the season.

Edited February 4, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[johnnyhasbeen]

Wow, this was good and I missed it today, fun fun.

Saku is and has been a great captain, but there are those of us that judge by cups only. This is Montreal, nothing else matters. Presidents, who cares? Stanley Cups please! He desearves to lead this team in the playoffs, and if he doesn't get through he should be released, only because we need the roster spot for a cheap kid so we can have an elite #1 centre.

Toughness is not a part of the Montreal Canadiens? Huh? No, goonery I think was mentioned. Good job of digging back there guys, but how about John Ferguson, or Mr Ferguson as everyone only dared call him? Baron in the 80's was a classic, signed as afree agent in march played 4 reg season 3 playoff games as a goon.... Heck, we had The Rocket! Emile Bouchard wasn't to tough either from what I have heard.

But we are talking leadership. I believe Saku has that element , but somehow the results aren't showing. It gets damn frustrating to watch, year in year out. Now we are in a season, following a picked out of it to finishing 1st seaon, which we are favored to be top. Very hard for any of us fans to except 2nd this year, especially to Boston who are owning us! Last year was easy, noexpectations, little pressure, caught teams off gaurd. This year , everyone is prepared for us every night, there is a huge need to win, 25 in 100 and all the hype. The youth nucleus of this team will take a Presidents, but this season the pressure is intense.

Want to know what I see in my nightmares? Well I am going to tell you anyway. We don't win this year. We do next, and we will have our 25 cups. However, every Toronto fan will remember forever that we couldn't do 25 in 100.......

[saskhab]

It's not Montreal's 100th season, it's the Montreal Canadiens' 100th year of existence. If we won it next year, we'd still have 25 in 100 seasons.

Just saying... The Habs didn't play a game in 2004-05.

[Fanpuck33]

It's not Montreal's 100th season, it's the Montreal Canadiens' 100th year of existence. If we won it next year, we'd still have 25 in 100 seasons.

Just saying... The Habs didn't play a game in 2004-05.

Haha, true. How do decades work? Do we have another year to get one this decade? Is the decade from 2000-2009 or from 2001-2010?

[KoZed]

Haha, true. How do decades work? Do we have another year to get one this decade? Is the decade from 2000-2009 or from 2001-2010?

A decade ends is 10 years, starting with 1 ending with 10... but, 2009 is the 10th year of this decade.

[Fanpuck33]

A decade ends is 10 years, starting with 1 ending with 10... but, 2009 is the 10th year of this decade.

Yeah, it's kind of like the whole millennium thing. Whether it began in 2000 or 2001 depends on if there was a year 0.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Boy, I tell you, whether the Habs 'fail' to win 25 in 100 in the least of my worries. Most Leafs fans can't work out the 1-in-4 ratio anyway.

Edited February 5, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[KoZed]

Most Leafs fans can't work out the 1-in-4 ratio anyway.

Because only 1-in-4 Leafs fans were alive when they won their last Cup...

[Helmethead]

KoZed has a good point. I just wouldn't blame Koivu for the lack of team toughness, that's all. 'Toughness' being defined here as a refusal to be intimidated or to back down, and to stand up for one's team-mates where called for.

Ironically, to me Koivu is 'tough' in these ways, especially the first. If everyone had Koivu's heart, we'd probably have won by now. And we do have a nucleus of players - Kosto, Lapierre, Komisarek, even guys like Gorges and Bouillon and Begin who scare nobody but also absorb punishment and bounce back as strong as ever, backing down to no one - who have the requisite character. The question is whether we have enough *key players* who have these traits. This is important, because no matter how gutsy your third and fourth lines, it's your top-6 forwards and top-4 defenders who are on the ice for most of the game. If they're not tough, your team isn't.

Sergei Kostitsyn probably has the right character profile, but he just hasn't been good enough this season that it makes any difference. Andrei Kostitsyn doesn't. Plekanec wants to but doesn't. Kovalev is capable of taking guys' heads off (c.f. that wonderful elbowing of Tucker) but only rises to that standard when the moon is aligned with Jupiter or something. That Markov's playoff record is horrible at least suggests that he can be intimidated off his best game. Hamrlik is solid, but sort of a gentle giant and doesn't seem to like the rough going either. Higgins is probably just too brittle to play that way consistently. Tanguay? I doubt it, but I haven't seen him in enough hard-hitting situations to know for sure.

(The O'Byrne bashers might want to take note of the fact that he seems like a guy who could bring the right kind of casual toughness to the core, if he can ever become a top-4 defenceman).

Most of the nucleus of this team may well be too 'soft' in the specified sense. They've shown that they can rally and play tough for specific games and stretches. But what's not clear is that they yet understand how to do it, or are willing to do it, shift in and shift out for 20-30 playoff games, which is what we'd need to win.

Probably Gainey is hoping that guys like Pleks and Kostitsyn (and even Markov, now that he's in the playoffs regularly) will learn both that that's what it takes, and will be willing to grow into the role. This is a reasonable hope with young players. But it would certainly be reassuring to see them doing it day in and day out during the season.

I'm gonna have to side with KoZed on this one. I totally understand why he's been frustrated with the Habs passive ways and lack of grit and character. Cucumber sums it up perfectly in his post. Although we do have players who are willing to put their a$$ on the line, they aren't our top six players.

I mean, theoretically, if each of the top two lines had two "real" leaders, then the psyche of this team would be totally different.

That being said, I know i'm gonna get blasted for this, but maybe we should seriously consider trading Markov.

He is by far our strongest barganing chip. But at age 30, he ain't gonna be getting any cheaper after his current contract expires in June 2011. He has two years left at USD 5.75 million. That's considered a bargain to most teams. Taking that into consideration, I'm pretty sure that teams will be lining up to nab him.

Think about it logically. Timmins and Gainey have been stockpiling on Defencemen over the past couple of drafts. I'm "assuming" that behind their logic was a combination of "Let's draft the best player available" and that top tier defencemen are usually a better investment in the long run. So, buy spending your draft picks on D's, you give yourself the opportunity to move some in order to address other weaknesses that the team may have. Now, if you combine that with the fact that the salary cap affects how you allocate your funds, common sense says that you move your older, more experienced and subsequentially more "expensive" defencemen instead of the up and coming prospects.

I know, i know...Any success the team has starts from the net out, and by trading our Best Defencemen we would only be hampering our chances. The ideal scenario would be to trade Komisarek, who is an impending UFA, and keep Markov since he's still signed for two more years at a bargain and since he's your only offensive defenceman u have. But with a salary cap in place, you know first hand that you can't keep everyone that you groom. Hence, the buy low, sell high mentality must prevail. Markov was a 6th round draft pick if I'm not mistaken. If you can take 6th round pick and turn it into Lecavalier, you do it, end of story.

However, coming back to the initial topic of conversation - GRIT - and our teams lack thereof, you simply CANNOT afford to give away Komisarek. Markov has plenty of credentials, but being a stand up gritty type of player he is not. As Cucumber said, Management may be hoping that our "weaker" players will learn what it takes and grow into their roll. My experience in sports has tought me otherwise. Grit, determination, comroderie and the "all for one and one for all" metality is not something you learn. You're born with it. Sure you might be influenced by the players around you, but lets face it, if they haven't learnt it yet, they never will.

In my view, management must make a statement by drastically altering the character of our team. This can only be done by finally acquiring that bonafide 1st line in your face type of centre. This team needs a new identity. The young ones coming up through the system need the perfect role model. You can argue that Koivu is a great leader, and to a certain extent he is, but he's not the person who's ON ICE identity must represent the team.

(Let me not even get into Kovalev... )

If the Habs are really serious about creating a strong team first atmosphere and Markov is what it takes, then au revoir mon chum.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Helmethead

[BTH]

I was going to say that Kovalev is capable of this but he only seems to do it when he's personally been taken a run at.

ForumGhost, we have players that are capable of being tough and fitting our offensive game plan. O'Byrne is a perfect example. He can be a very valuable player for us if he isn't scoring in his own net. Gorges, Kosto, Begin and Bouillon are all good skaters as well, and useful. And now we have Lapierre and Pacioretty (stood up for Komisarek by fighting Simmonds) who can do some of the dirty work.

But KoZed is right. All of Koivu, Kovalev and Markov hit and they all fight their battles around the boards, but Kovy's the only one we've ever seen totally pissed off, and that's only when someone like Tucker or Hollweg tries to take him out.

[Mont Royale]

Markov was a 6th round draft pick if I'm not mistaken. If you can take 6th round pick and turn it into Lecavalier, you do it, end of story.

I wouldn't trade either Markov or Komisarek, but I wanted to address this particular argument. I've heard variations of this before, but there is no logic to it. In Markov, we're talking about a true #1 defenceman who is excellent at both ends of the ice - a rare commodity. He's 30 years old and in his 8th NHL season. The fact that he was a 6th round pick became irrelevant in determining his value a long time ago.