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Apr. 9/09 | Canadiens vs. Bruins | Game Thread


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Um, that comparison is absurd. This is Thomas' 4th good NHL season, he's been around for a while. People would laugh at Gainey because Price is 21 and Thomas is 35. Right now, though, anyone in their right mind would take Thomas over Price for the next two months. Who wouldn't take a Vezina candidate over a struggling 21 year old? Long term the story is obviously different, but if we're talking about the present, Boston clearly has the better goaltending.

Base level analysis predicated on nothing but statistics. Dig a little deeper and the answer to how a career

journeyman can move from minor leagues to Vezina trophy is pretty easy to comprehend.

How come Thomas with a 12-13- record and a 2.77 GAA with a .917 SV% is considered a good season?

And 30-29-0 with a 3.13 GAA with a .905 SV% is a good season?

Price is considered to be terrible this year and is 23-15-10 with a 2.82 and a .905 SV%

Am I going to have to hear that Thomas played on a bad team and was spectacular and Price is on a good

team and the reason they are bad is because of him? Because Halak's numbers are very similar to Price

which leads me to believe that the Habs with their injuries and distractions were not a great team either.

Thomas has had TWO good seasons and both coincided with the arrival of Claude Julien and

a commitment to defensive hockey. 33 year old goaltenders who have a .500 record and a 2.90 GAA and .910 SV%

don't turn into All-Stars overnight. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Goaltenders are the easiest player on the ice to overrate. Over the last 15 years a handful of BRUTAL goaltenders

have posted numbers like Thomas this season. Go look at EVERY goaltender that Pat Burns has ever coached.

Was he just fortunate on EVERY team he coached? Or were his goaltenders just fortunate he coached them?

Felix Potvin under Pat Burns: 4th, 9th, 15th and 10th overall in efficiency (Wins/GAA/SV%/SO).

After Burns: 23rd, 18th, 30th, 22nd, 15th, 33rd

I guess Potvin just suffered some off seasons without Burns.

Patrick Lalime in Ottawa, Roman Cechmanek, Robert Esche, Roman Turek with Ken Hitchcock. It is the SYSTEM.

Is Scott Clemmensen all of a sudden a solid NHL goaltender? Last season he couldn't outperform Justin Pogge with

the Marlies. Now Clemmensen in the Devils is putting up Vezina numbers and Pogge is getting destroyed in Toronto.

So am I to believe that Pogge has regressed and Clemmensen miraculously improved? All of this is not because of

the SYSTEM they have been placed in? Insulated versus exposed?

Claude Julien inherits a Montreal Canadiens team that finished 23rd in the NHL with 234 Goals against.

In his first full season the Canadiens improve to 10th chopping off 42 goals.

Claude Julien inherits a New Jersey Devils team that finished 8th with 229 goals against and in his first

full season with the Devils they improve to 5th chopping off 28 goals.

Claude Julien inherits a Boston Bruins team that finished in 29th with 289 goals against and in his first

full season with the Bruins they improve to 13th chopping off 67 goals. In his second season they improve

from 13th to 1st place in the league chopping off another 30 goals.

I am supposed to believe it is because a goalie who couldn't make the NHL until he was 31 and was the 20th

best goaltender in his rookie year, 27th in his sophomore year all of a sudden became elite at 33? Under Julien

he improves to 11th and now 1st? This is ALL BECAUSE OF TIM THOMAS??

Are you kidding me? Place Carey Price behind the system the Bruins employ and his statistics jump into the top 10.

Bad goals don't matter because his offense is 3rd best in the league.

Tim Thomas is an average NHL goaltender behind a great team. He looks great in the highlights because he

is a riverboat gambler who overpursues pucks and places himself in poor recovery positions, when he makes

miraculous recoveries he is viewed as spectacular, when he doesn't recover it is assumed he had no chance

because it is into a yawning cage. When the Bruins were not in position to pick up loose pucks he gave up

3 goals a game, now with Chara, Wideman, Ference, Ward etc and committed defensive forwards to cover his

ass he looks great. Perception IS NOT reality.

Just like Carey Price is not the albatross this board would like everybody to believe. I would take Price or Halak

over Thomas right now at their young age. And I am not OUT OF MY MIND to suggest it.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Base level analysis predicated on nothing but statistics. Dig a little deeper and the answer to how a career

journeyman can move from minor leagues to Vezina trophy is pretty easy to comprehend.

How come Thomas with a 12-13- record and a 2.77 GAA with a .917 SV% is considered a good season?

And 30-29-0 with a 3.13 GAA with a .905 SV% is a good season?

Price is considered to be terrible this year and is 23-15-10 with a 2.82 and a .905 SV%

Am I going to have to hear that Thomas played on a bad team and was spectacular and Price is on a good

team and the reason they are bad is because of him? Because Halak's numbers are very similar to Price

which leads me to believe that the Habs with their injuries and distractions were not a great team either.

Thomas has had TWO good seasons and both coincided with the arrival of Claude Julien and

a commitment to defensive hockey. 33 year old goaltenders who have a .500 record and a 2.90 GAA and .910 SV%

don't turn into All-Stars overnight. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Goaltenders are the easiest player on the ice to overrate. Over the last 15 years a handful of BRUTAL goaltenders

have posted numbers like Thomas this season. Go look at EVERY goaltender that Pat Burns has ever coached.

Was he just fortunate on EVERY team he coached? Or were his goaltenders just fortunate he coached them?

Felix Potvin under Pat Burns: 4th, 9th, 15th and 10th overall in efficiency (Wins/GAA/SV%/SO).

After Burns: 23rd, 18th, 30th, 22nd, 15th, 33rd

I guess Potvin just suffered some off seasons without Burns.

Patrick Lalime in Ottawa, Roman Cechmanek, Robert Esche, Roman Turek with Ken Hitchcock. It is the SYSTEM.

Is Scott Clemmensen all of a sudden a solid NHL goaltender? Last season he couldn't outperform Justin Pogge with

the Marlies. Now Clemmensen in the Devils is putting up Vezina numbers and Pogge is getting destroyed in Toronto.

So am I to believe that Pogge has regressed and Clemmensen miraculously improved? All of this is not because of

the SYSTEM they have been placed in? Insulated versus exposed?

Claude Julien inherits a Montreal Canadiens team that finished 23rd in the NHL with 234 Goals against.

In his first full season the Canadiens improve to 10th chopping off 42 goals.

Claude Julien inherits a New Jersey Devils team that finished 8th with 229 goals against and in his first

full season with the Devils they improve to 5th chopping off 28 goals.

Claude Julien inherits a Boston Bruins team that finished in 29th with 289 goals against and in his first

full season with the Bruins they improve to 13th chopping off 67 goals. In his second season they improve

from 13th to 1st place in the league chopping off another 30 goals.

I am supposed to believe it is because a goalie who couldn't make the NHL until he was 31 and was the 20th

best goaltender in his rookie year, 27th in his sophomore year all of a sudden became elite at 33? Under Julien

he improves to 11th and now 1st? This is ALL BECAUSE OF TIM THOMAS??

Are you kidding me? Place Carey Price behind the system the Bruins employ and his statistics jump into the top 10.

Bad goals don't matter because his offense is 3rd best in the league.

Tim Thomas is an average NHL goaltender behind a great team. He looks great in the highlights because he

is a riverboat gambler who overpursues pucks and places himself in poor recovery positions, when he makes

miraculous recoveries he is viewed as spectacular, when he doesn't recover it is assumed he had no chance

because it is into a yawning cage. When the Bruins were not in position to pick up loose pucks he gave up

3 goals a game, now with Chara, Wideman, Ference, Ward etc and committed defensive forwards to cover his

ass he looks great. Perception IS NOT reality.

Just like Carey Price is not the albatross this board would like everybody to believe. I would take Price or Halak

over Thomas right now at their young age. And I am not OUT OF MY MIND to suggest it.

Amen.

I just shake my head when I think that Thomas was awarded a 5 million dollar contract.

Lundqvist is another goaltender whose perceived skill is incredibly high playing behind a defense-first NYR squad (at least while Renney was there). Now New York has locked him into a huge contract as well.

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Amen.

I just shake my head when I think that Thomas was awarded a 5 million dollar contract.

Lundqvist is another goaltender whose perceived skill is incredibly high playing behind a defense-first NYR squad (at least while Renney was there). Now New York has locked him into a huge contract as well.

With Rask on the farm that signing is insane.

They are screwed in 2011.

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If you just look at the season stats, you could say Price had a good year. Further inspection at his split stats from before and after the All-Star break tell a different story. Prior to the break, Price was having a very good season. Afterwards, he collapsed and had a terrible second half. Sure, you can blame it on the team in front of him, but much of that time, he just didn't look right. You obviously can't blame it all on him, as some here want to do, but he certainly isn't blameless.

I never said Thomas is an elite goalie, I simply said it is nuts to call him Jim Carey and that he is playing better than Price. He is a good goaltender whom people do not give any respect. Inspection of his split stats during two seasons you called me out on shows more consistency than Price showed this season. His save percentage didn't dip below the .900 level. You can talk about a system, but the way Price played during January, February, and into March, no system on the planet is going to make him look good. His confidence was non-existent and he looked lost at times.

Lately, Price has shown signs of breaking out of it. In the playoffs, though, you want your goalie at 100% confidence heading in. Given the choice between Price and Thomas if both are playing at their best, then I'll take Price. Based on what I've seen the last three months, I'd take Thomas. Long term is obviously a different story, but looking at a playoff matchup, the edge goes to Boston unless Price comes out with his head on straight and plays like he did in the first half.

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If you just look at the season stats, you could say Price had a good year. Further inspection at his split stats from before and after the All-Star break tell a different story. Prior to the break, Price was having a very good season. Afterwards, he collapsed and had a terrible second half. Sure, you can blame it on the team in front of him, but much of that time, he just didn't look right. You obviously can't blame it all on him, as some here want to do, but he certainly isn't blameless.

I never said Thomas is an elite goalie, I simply said it is nuts to call him Jim Carey and that he is playing better than Price. He is a good goaltender whom people do not give any respect. Inspection of his split stats during two seasons you called me out on shows more consistency than Price showed this season. His save percentage didn't dip below the .900 level. You can talk about a system, but the way Price played during January, February, and into March, no system on the planet is going to make him look good. His confidence was non-existent and he looked lost at times.

Lately, Price has shown signs of breaking out of it. In the playoffs, though, you want your goalie at 100% confidence heading in. Given the choice between Price and Thomas if both are playing at their best, then I'll take Price. Based on what I've seen the last three months, I'd take Thomas.

21 year olds are inconsistent, that is true of all of them. So comparing the consistency of a 33-35 year old

is not fair. Steve Mason has been pretty inconsistent for the Jackets. Price was up and down all year last year.

Strong start, mid season meltdown, fantastic finish, playoff meltdown.

Nov - Dec he had obscene numbers

Jan - Feb he barely broke a .900 SV%

Mar-Apr he has rebounded but still nowhere near his 2008 form.

I don't like to make excuses, but I think Price's struggles stem from his injury, when he struggled

his confidence dropped and he began to press, when he pressed he lost his form and is still trying

to regain confidence and his technique. Because he is young he had no reference point as to how to

deal with his first major failure in 4 years.

Thomas would have to be abysmal to look bad on the Bruins, what would he look like on the Habs?

My guess is similar to how he did in 2006-07. Thomas has improved, but he is not as good as his numbers.

And because of those factors, I don't think the gap is very wide and if Price gets hot (ie Cam Ward), then

he can win a series on his own (ie Bulldogs 2007). Their is no lightbulb for Thomas, he will never be better

than this.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Agreed about Price over Thomas, Thomas has looked very pedestrian for a month or so. Shoot, shoot, shoot, lads, we'll get him.

Trizzak, to call the Habs picking up the point in the most hostile environment, with the scum running them from the start, with refs unwilling / ordered not to call things correctly, as childish and gutless is nuts. Gorges dumping his man into the net was a bang-bang play, and you are saying what he did is the same as Lucic skating 40 feet and jumping an unaware opponent from behind, gloves still on, third man in, is two sides of the same coin????? Chara skating all the way to the corner and using his reach to go over the linesman and punch Komisarek in the face repeatedly, who did that on the Habs? And these are only the two most egregious examples, off the top of my head. Whatever you would like to imagine, they ran us all night. They instigated, provoked, harassed.

If you are ever down on your luck, try applying to the NHL referees association; put that post on your cv, they'll hire you straight away, no questions asked. Or, if you can't skate, I'm sure NESN could use a few more perceptive 'analysts'.

And your avatar is ridiculous. ;)

Edited by tokyohabs
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I don't think you understand the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying Thomas is a better goaltender. My consistency argument is valid because I'm simply picking which goalie I would go with right now. If the roles were reversed and the young guy was playing consistently and the veteran inconsistently, I would be picking the younger player. Basically, I'm saying that if I had to choose one for these playoffs, I would give the goaltending edge to Thomas. That doesn't mean he is more talented, it just means he is playing better at the moment.

I don't think it's possible to make a case that Price is playing better hockey than Thomas right now. Price's injury messed up his psyche, I think that's pretty clear. Only now is he showing signs of getting over it. Like I said, if Price suddenly gets his confidence back and plays like he did early in the year, then there is no doubt that I'd pick Price over Thomas. Until that happens, though, you have to give the edge to Thomas.

I agree with most everything you are saying, although I do take some issue with calling Mason inconsistent. Like Price, Mason has an excuse. He played most of January and into February with mononucleosis. Maintaining a save percentage above .900 is still good. I also find it silly to compare anything to his first two months in the league. No goalie in the world can maintain those kind of stats long term.

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Base level analysis predicated on nothing but statistics. Dig a little deeper and the answer to how a career

journeyman can move from minor leagues to Vezina trophy is pretty easy to comprehend.

How come Thomas with a 12-13- record and a 2.77 GAA with a .917 SV% is considered a good season?

And 30-29-0 with a 3.13 GAA with a .905 SV% is a good season?

Price is considered to be terrible this year and is 23-15-10 with a 2.82 and a .905 SV%

Am I going to have to hear that Thomas played on a bad team and was spectacular and Price is on a good

team and the reason they are bad is because of him? Because Halak's numbers are very similar to Price

which leads me to believe that the Habs with their injuries and distractions were not a great team either.

Thomas has had TWO good seasons and both coincided with the arrival of Claude Julien and

a commitment to defensive hockey. 33 year old goaltenders who have a .500 record and a 2.90 GAA and .910 SV%

don't turn into All-Stars overnight. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Goaltenders are the easiest player on the ice to overrate. Over the last 15 years a handful of BRUTAL goaltenders

have posted numbers like Thomas this season. Go look at EVERY goaltender that Pat Burns has ever coached.

Was he just fortunate on EVERY team he coached? Or were his goaltenders just fortunate he coached them?

Felix Potvin under Pat Burns: 4th, 9th, 15th and 10th overall in efficiency (Wins/GAA/SV%/SO).

After Burns: 23rd, 18th, 30th, 22nd, 15th, 33rd

I guess Potvin just suffered some off seasons without Burns.

Patrick Lalime in Ottawa, Roman Cechmanek, Robert Esche, Roman Turek with Ken Hitchcock. It is the SYSTEM.

Is Scott Clemmensen all of a sudden a solid NHL goaltender? Last season he couldn't outperform Justin Pogge with

the Marlies. Now Clemmensen in the Devils is putting up Vezina numbers and Pogge is getting destroyed in Toronto.

So am I to believe that Pogge has regressed and Clemmensen miraculously improved? All of this is not because of

the SYSTEM they have been placed in? Insulated versus exposed?

Claude Julien inherits a Montreal Canadiens team that finished 23rd in the NHL with 234 Goals against.

In his first full season the Canadiens improve to 10th chopping off 42 goals.

Claude Julien inherits a New Jersey Devils team that finished 8th with 229 goals against and in his first

full season with the Devils they improve to 5th chopping off 28 goals.

Claude Julien inherits a Boston Bruins team that finished in 29th with 289 goals against and in his first

full season with the Bruins they improve to 13th chopping off 67 goals. In his second season they improve

from 13th to 1st place in the league chopping off another 30 goals.

I am supposed to believe it is because a goalie who couldn't make the NHL until he was 31 and was the 20th

best goaltender in his rookie year, 27th in his sophomore year all of a sudden became elite at 33? Under Julien

he improves to 11th and now 1st? This is ALL BECAUSE OF TIM THOMAS??

Are you kidding me? Place Carey Price behind the system the Bruins employ and his statistics jump into the top 10.

Bad goals don't matter because his offense is 3rd best in the league.

Tim Thomas is an average NHL goaltender behind a great team. He looks great in the highlights because he

is a riverboat gambler who overpursues pucks and places himself in poor recovery positions, when he makes

miraculous recoveries he is viewed as spectacular, when he doesn't recover it is assumed he had no chance

because it is into a yawning cage. When the Bruins were not in position to pick up loose pucks he gave up

3 goals a game, now with Chara, Wideman, Ference, Ward etc and committed defensive forwards to cover his

ass he looks great. Perception IS NOT reality.

Just like Carey Price is not the albatross this board would like everybody to believe. I would take Price or Halak

over Thomas right now at their young age. And I am not OUT OF MY MIND to suggest it.

Good read, and it too agree that Thomas is nothing special as the B's will find out soon enough.

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The intriguing thing about Price's second half is that his game hid the skids and then, very shortly after that, the Habs suddenly started giving up 35-45 SOG per night. Of course, this compounded Price's problems.

This leads me to speculate that even at 21 Price occupies a huge amount of space in the collective psyche of that team. When he's on, the whole team feeds of his confidence, that sense of indestructibility he projects. When his confidence sags, the entire team catches on and our game goes down the crapper. When Price catches a cold, in other words, the Habs catch the flu.

Maybe that's true of all teams with their goalies. I don't know. But it seemed like an observation worth making; and if it's correct it suggests that already Price has a certain larger-than-life quality to his mates.

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The intriguing thing about Price's second half is that his game hid the skids and then, very shortly after that, the Habs suddenly started giving up 35-45 SOG per night. Of course, this compounded Price's problems.

This leads me to speculate that even at 21 Price occupies a huge amount of space in the collective psyche of that team. When he's on, the whole team feeds of his confidence, that sense of indestructibility he projects. When his confidence sags, the entire team catches on and our game goes down the crapper. When Price catches a cold, in other words, the Habs catch the flu.

Maybe that's true of all teams with their goalies. I don't know. But it seemed like an observation worth making; and if it's correct it suggests that already Price has a certain larger-than-life quality to his mates.

I feel sorry for him, but it is the pressure that comes with playing goal for the Habs.

Roy won a Cup at 20 and was being ripped during the 1987 playoffs for poor play.

Roy won the 89,90 and 92 Vezina and fans wanted him traded and benched entering the 1993 playoffs.

The blame that Price has taken on this board has been outrageous. But if the internet had been around

Roy would have been the target for the same thing.

Price was placed on a pedestal and is now being ripped from the pedestal by the ones who placed

him there. It will never change in Montreal.

I don't know if they feed off him personally, but they certainly rely on him and Halak far to often.

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