New identity comes with some brand new toughness

[JoeLassister]

In a good article (in french though) http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/20...-robustesse.php , Marc-Antoine Godin, of La Presse, ask some players (Latendresse, Conboy, Max Pac, O'Byrne) and coach Jacques Martin about the level of intensity and toughness the team will need to drop the tag of "soft team".

Some pretty interessant answers coming from them. They all agree (but reported by Latendresse) that the new leaders on the team are younger and more "fretful" than the previous core leaders. Latendresse says that Gionta will go in the traffic and that Cammalleri can play cheap sometimes.

He says that when the best players play like that, you have to step up and follow them.

For Max Pac, get rid the soft team tag won't happen by continually droping the gloves, but by always finishing the body checks ang going in the corners to fight for the puck.

Jacques Martin had this to say : The players don't have to take the guy off the ice, but they certainly have to take the guy off the play, the most important thing being to get the puck. It's what we want to install this year.

-------------------------------------

Personnaly, I think this was one of the major lacks of this team and now with Tanguay and Kovy gone, replaced by Camms and Gionta, we got more players in the traffic and that will crash the net. The time when other teams were saying that we were not so difficult to play against is done.

[Chris]

Yea, good article. These guys all drive to and play around the net, including Gionta and Cammallari.

I like the additions on the back end too, they will keep guys off of Price.

BGL in shape, motivated to prove people will certainly help as well.

I brought up enough before but it sure will be nice to see players actually standing up for eachother intead of talking about. It made my blood boil watching those Pus## Dmen skate away after Price was run over.

[johnnyhasbeen]

I have always said that if you win the battles for the puck on the boards and in the corners you win games. Glad to hear the players may finally be getting this instilled in them.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

We'll see. Gionta is by all accounts a tenacious player. I haven't seen enough of Cammy to be able to comment. But Gomez is nobody's idea of a super-gutsy player. (Not saying he's soft, just that he's not necessarily 'tough').

In this specific respect of tenacity and battle-winning,

Gionta >> Tanguay

Cammy > Kovalev (although not when Kovy felt motivated)

Gomez < Koivu

Mara = Komisarek

Gill > Schneider (? maybe)

Spacek >>>> Brisebois

Moen = Kostopolous

Higgins > Pacioretty or whoever

It's a net gain and might bring us, finally, to a critical mass of 'toughness' (in the sense of winning battles and paying the price). But this team still has lots of players (e.g., the Kostitsyns and Plekanec) who were part of the problem in this respect last season. And also the tenaciousness of Komisarek and Koivu shouldn't be forgotten, nor what Higgins could bring in the 40+ games annually when he was healthy and feeling his oats. (Finally, how come nobody mentions that Moen was -18 last season? He may be 'tough' but that doesn't suggest to me a guy who wins all the key defensive battles; or more accurately, he wins the battles and loses the war, i.e., watches his team get scored on).

So I think it's an improvement, but we may still be facing nights where we look soft. Not trying to be negative about it - I like our new team and do think it will be more resilient and harder to play against - but we need to be careful about the fog of optimism that wafts out of training camp every year.

My own suspicion is that the real improvement in these and other areas will come from the coaching staff simply insisting upon it and instilling it effectively.

[saskhab]

I'd say the appropriate defensive replacements are:

Spacek for Schneider

Mara for Komisarek

Gill for Bouillon

As per Moen's poor +/-, that's what relying too much on that stat can do. It clouds the picture. Anaheim had a tough year last year, but still tried to play the same way they had previously. Namely, by putting Moen, Pahlsson and Rob Neidermeyer against the very best players in the league... giving Travis Moen a tougher set of opponents on a nightly basis than Chris Pronger, who is supposed to be one of the best d-men alive. Niedermeyer-Beauchemin was supposed to draw the tough assignments, but Beauchemin's injury gave inherit instability. Hockey's a team game, and another one of those important teammates in Anaheim, J.S. Giguere, was lousy. It couldn't simply be the result of shoddy defensive play, since Jonas Hiller was excellent. But even by the time Moen left Anaheim, Giguere had played the majority of games for the Ducks. The Ducks also had no secondary scoring whatsoever, so they were easy to play against as a result (not many line matching tactics were required by the opposition). Pahlsson's long illness also made things difficult.

To put things in perspective, Scott Niedermeyer was a -8 last year. Anaheim was the very definition of a one line team.

And we saw how many games that one line team could win when only Hiller was playing goal come playoffs. Rob Niedermeyer, who shared Moen's unfortunate fate and finished -17 for the year, was a +1 in the playoffs.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'd say the appropriate defensive replacements are:

Spacek for Schneider

Mara for Komisarek

Gill for Bouillon

As per Moen's poor +/-, that's what relying too much on that stat can do. It clouds the picture. Anaheim had a tough year last year, but still tried to play the same way they had previously. Namely, by putting Moen, Pahlsson and Rob Neidermeyer against the very best players in the league... giving Travis Moen a tougher set of opponents on a nightly basis than Chris Pronger, who is supposed to be one of the best d-men alive. Niedermeyer-Beauchemin was supposed to draw the tough assignments, but Beauchemin's injury gave inherit instability. Hockey's a team game, and another one of those important teammates in Anaheim, J.S. Giguere, was lousy. It couldn't simply be the result of shoddy defensive play, since Jonas Hiller was excellent. But even by the time Moen left Anaheim, Giguere had played the majority of games for the Ducks. The Ducks also had no secondary scoring whatsoever, so they were easy to play against as a result (not many line matching tactics were required by the opposition). Pahlsson's long illness also made things difficult.

To put things in perspective, Scott Niedermeyer was a -8 last year. Anaheim was the very definition of a one line team.

And we saw how many games that one line team could win when only Hiller was playing goal come playoffs. Rob Niedermeyer, who shared Moen's unfortunate fate and finished -17 for the year, was a +1 in the playoffs.

Good analysis, saskhab. I was wondering what to make of that Moen stat, and your thoughts are appreciated.

Your defenseman analogies are probably better than mine too. Let's see...in terms of 'battling,'

Mara < Komisarek

Spacek > Schneider

Gill > Bouillon - although Bouillon battled like crazy, his size was his disadvantage. (Has anyone signed him, BTW? I forget). On the other hand, Gill will resemble a pilon much more often than Frankie B did, so I think Gill's advantage here may actually be somewhat slight.

[BCHabnut]

Good analysis, saskhab. I was wondering what to make of that Moen stat, and your thoughts are appreciated.

Your defenseman analogies are probably better than mine too. Let's see...in terms of 'battling,'

Mara < Komisarek

Spacek > Schneider

Gill > Bouillon - although Bouillon battled like crazy, his size was his disadvantage. (Has anyone signed him, BTW? I forget). On the other hand, Gill will resemble a pilon much more often than Frankie B did, so I think Gill's advantage here may actually be somewhat slight.

I was laughing when Gill went to Pittsburgh, but watching him for two years, I found that he seems to have improved from his play in Toronto.

[Wamsley01]

I was laughing when Gill went to Pittsburgh, but watching him for two years, I found that he seems to have improved from his play in Toronto.

Amazing what happens when a player is placed in a position to succeed. He never changed as a player, he wasn't counted on

for top 4 minutes in Pittsburgh and hence wasn't exposed to top offensive pairings. He was used as a penalty killer, where his stick

is a valuable tool because of his ability to block passing lanes with his massive reach, and he was used late in games when the Pens

packed back in their zone and his job was to move defenders from the front of the net and win battles in the corner, not attempt to

contain players off the rush.

That is good coaching. As I look back on some of the things Carbo did I realize that he failed to live up to the first rule in coaching and

that is to place his players in the best position to succeed. How many players have been miscast on the Habs in the last 2-3 years?

Higgins is best employed as a 3rd line shutdown forward, not a top line scorer. Ryder is either on the top 2 lines or he is useless, was

and is Komisarek a top pairing defenseman? He is Craig Ludwig. How good would the habs have been in the mid to late 80s with Ludwig

in the top pairing? He wasn't paired with Chelios, Svoboda or Robinson. He played with Lalor on the bottom pairing.

I said it in April, we were stressing over losing a defenseman who struggles to make a transition pass, never did throw the thunderous hits

we expected (see Phaneuf last night) and rarely kicked anybody's ass in a fight. Sure he won fights, he always TRIED to send a message

but was never really an intimidating presence. Lucic DESTROYED him twice to the point where he became a eunuch.

Why was it that he never looked the same when he wasn't with Markov? Could it be because he couldn't clear his own zone or make an

outlet pass for his life and he would flip it off the boards and let Markov deal with it.

Anybody who has ever played goal and watched a transition game unfold in front of you understands the importance of the first pass and

the ability to control the corners and find your support when pressured (probably one of the reasons why so many goaltenders become

analysts and catchers coaches in MLB, those positions offer a unique perspective). The Habs struggled with the Leafs for years because the top 4 was Souray,

Komisarek, Markov and Rivet. ONE of the top 4 defenseman was competent on the forecheck. So the Leafs would fly into the zone and pressure the D knowing there

was a 75% chance that a blind pass was coming to avoid the pressure. Somebody like Markov when pressured will subtly move the puck out of the forwards path

of momentum sending him flying by, turn around and make the proper read. It either allowed for a transition opportunity or he easily found his forward

support along the boards. Souray, Rivet and Komisarek look over their shoulder, stand in the path of the momentum and chop it off the boards and

hope for the best or feed Markov to deal with it. This allowed the Leafs to scoop up turnovers and led to a ton of games where the Habs would give up 40+ shots.

It is why Streit and Hamrlik helped change the dynamic of the team when they replaced Rivet and Souray. It is also one of the things that enrages me

when it comes to defending Price. He is still adjusting to the speed of the game and his puck tracking is inconsistent, so when a harmless situation turns

into a scoring chance he is prone to react slowly. Instead of somebody criticizing the situation and providing succinct insight as to the cause and effect that

created the situation and the real mistake Price made, I have to listen to ridiculous rants based on insight from 110%, l'antichambre or PJ Stock.

If the new Habs D stays healthy they will be a HUGE upgrade on last season. Spacek, Markov and Hamrlik all can make great transition feeds

and Gorges and Mara are adequate. The only player who is totally devoid of the talent in the top 6 is Gill and he will be a bottom pairing D-man who will be

used in a specialized role. Everything starts at the back and while everybody talks about the AMAZING defense in Toronto, they will soon realize that it isn't

very mobile.

And CC, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by Mara's work ethic and toughness and will not mourn the loss of Komisarek by December.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Wamsley01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Amazing what happens when a player is placed in a position to succeed. He never changed as a player, he wasn't counted on

for top 4 minutes in Pittsburgh and hence wasn't exposed to top offensive pairings. He was used as a penalty killer, where his stick

is a valuable tool because of his ability to block passing lanes with his massive reach, and he was used late in games when the Pens

packed back in their zone and his job was to move defenders from the front of the net and win battles in the corner.

That is good coaching. As I look back on some of the things Carbo did I realize that he failed to live up to the first rule in coaching and

that is to place his players in the best position to succeed. How many players have been miscast on the Habs in the last 2-3 years?

Higgins is best employed as a 3rd line shutdown forward, not a top line scorer. Ryder is either on the top 2 lines or he is useless, was

and is Komisarek a top pairing defenseman? He is Craig Ludwig. How good would the habs have been in the mid to late 80s with Ludwig

in the top pairing, he wasn't paired with Chelios, Svoboda or Robinson. He played with Lalor on the bottom pairing.

I said it in April, we were stressing over losing a defenseman who struggles to make a transition pass, never did throw the thunderous hits

we expected (see Phaneuf last night) and rarely kicked anybody's ass in a fight. Sure he won fights, he always TRIED to send a message

but was never really an intimidating presence. Lucic DESTROYED him twice to the point where he became a eunuch.

Why was it that he never looked the same when he wasn't with Markov? Could it be because he couldn't clear his own zone or make an

outlet pass for his life and he would flip it off the boards and let Markov deal with it.

Anybody who has ever played goal and watched a transition game unfold in front of you understands the importance of the first pass and

the ability to control the corners and find your support when pressured. The Habs struggled with the Leafs for years because the top 4 was

Souray, Komisarek, Markov and Rivet. ONE of the top 4 defenseman was competent on the forecheck. So the Leafs would fly into the zone and

pressure the D knowing there was a 75% chance that a blind pass was coming to avoid the pressure. Somebody like Markov when pressured will

subtly move the puck out of the forwards path of momentum sending him flying by, turn around and make the proper read. It either allowed for

a transition opportunity or he easily found his forward support along the boards. Souray, Rivet and Komisarek look over their shoulder, stand in the path

of the momentum and chop it off the boards and hope for the best or feed Markov to deal with it. This allowed the Leafs to scoop up turnovers and

led to a ton of games where the Habs would give up 40+ shots. It is why Streit and Hamrlik helped change the dynamic of the team

when they replaced Rivet and Souray.

If the new Habs D stays healthy they will be a HUGE upgrade on last season. Spacek, Markov and Hamrlik all can make great transition feeds

and Gorges and Mara are adequate. The only player who is totally devoid of the talent in the top 6 is Gill and he will be a bottom pairing D-man who will be

used in a specialized role. Everything starts at the back and while everybody talks about the AMAZING defense in Toronto, they will soon realize that it isn't

very mobile.

And CC, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by Mara's work ethic and toughness and will not mourn the loss of Komisarek by December.

Great analysis, Wamsley. I wasn't really trying to 'mourn Komi' in this thread, just trying to get a bead on what our (or my) expectations should be in terms of our shedding the identity of a soft team. Otherwise put, it's an exercise in qualifying all the the Kumbaya optimism of training camp.

I do regret that we couldn't re-sign Komisarek and I *do* think the Ludwig parallel is a bit harsh, but I agree that our D as a whole is substantially better now. Whether or not we agree with his signings up front, Bob really did quite an impressive job in refashioning his defence corps this summer.

[Wamsley01]

Great analysis, Wamsley. I wasn't really trying to 'mourn Komi' in this thread, just trying to get a bead on what our (or my) expectations should be in terms of our shedding the identity of a soft team. Otherwise put, it's an exercise in qualifying all the the Kumbaya optimism of training camp.

I do regret that we couldn't re-sign Komisarek and I *do* think the Ludwig parallel is a bit harsh, but I agree that our D as a whole is substantially better now. Whether or not we agree with his signings up front, Bob really did quite an impressive job in refashioning his defence corps this summer.

In all honesty, what does Komisarek do that Ludwig didn't? Is he tougher than Ludwig?

I loved Craig Ludwig. He blocked shots, he was physical, he worked his ass off. Is Komisarek a better skater?

Yes, but is Alexander Ovechkin a greater skater than Wayne Gretzky? Ludwig is a strong comparable for me.

Everybody raves about the HITS+BLOCKS stat which he lead again (average per game), but he also only trailed Mike Green

in turnovers (per game). The majority of the players leading the league in giveaways are puck moving defensemen.

Markov, Green, Doughty, Streit, Niedermayer, Spacek, Gilbert, Grebeshkov are all in the top 15, but they are making high

risk passes and have the puck on their stick ALL THE TIME. What is Mike Komisarek doing on that list? Brooks Orpik who

is almost even in the HITS+BLOCKS stat had 37 giveaways all season! Komisarek 89!!

Komisarek was miscast in Montreal. He is a 4th-6th defenseman that is very valuable if used properly, but he does

not set the tempo, he does not intimidate opposing forwards and I have NEVER seen him dominate the elite forwards in the game

and shut them down. When he tries to act tough he has been handled.

The Leafs are looking at a top 4 of Kaberle, Schenn, Beauchemin and Komisarek. To me that is very reminiscent of the 2006 Habs

immobile D.

[BTH]

Wamsley, even if you're right and Komisarek and Higgins weren't the players we wanted them to be, was it Carbonneau's fault that we had no one better? Komisarek was our 2nd best defenceman, so that's how he was used. Higgins was our best (second best when Tanguay was here) LW. If Carbo uses him on the 3rd line, who does he play on the first? The coach can only work with what he has.

[Zowpeb]

I think you guys are overly harsh on Komisarek...turnovers are also a function of minutes played, the players role, the type of offense being run, the players around you receiving the pass, forwards back-checking, etc...

Komisarek is a fine top pairing d-man on many teams.

I also find it amusing that anyone would say Mara "battles more" or is "tougher" then Komisarek. It's incredibly ridiculous IMO.

I also find it hilarious that people all of a sudden think Gill is a solid d-man now that he's on the Habs. Or that Komi is mediocre now that he's on the Leafs...and I hate the Leafs as much as any fan.

Take off the homer coloured sunglasses guys.

[habs rule]

i for one do not think that hal gill suddenly became a great defenseman but i will say that when someone starts whacking and running over carey that they will think twice with a 6 ft 7 in monster in front of them. carey needs protection and I think Bob found him some. so he may not be the best but he will hit you hard. and knock you down that we need

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

It's fine to blame Carbo for giving Higgins top-6 minutes, but then again if he hadn't gotten those minutes, we never would have *known* what his ceiling was. Last year excepted, he certainly looked on many nights like a top-6 guy. Remember, when Gainey took over after Julien's firing he put Higgins with Koivu and the guy scored about 20 goals in 40 games. Besides, the jury remains out on Higgins. I agree that the 'breakout' many analysts expected now looks like a more remote possibility, but if it did happen this year or even next, I wouldn't be stunned.

The same is true of Komi. Is he Craig Ludwig (who I liked!), or is he a bona-fide elite shutdown defenceman? Again, for me the jury is still out, although, just as the odds have titled against Higgins's ever becoming a star, they may have tipped against Komisarek. Maybe I'm not as good at reading talent. But people seem only to remember a player's last season (and it's telling in this respect that both men had horrendous seasons last year). Me, I'm reluctant to pronounce these Final Verdicts on players in their mid-20s (c.f. Mike Ribeiro).

In short, I'm not certain you can blame Carbo for playing these guys in those roles, nor that you can blame Gainey for supplying Carbo with those guys. Developing talent is never an exact science.

Edited September 19, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Zowpeb]

The Leafs are looking at a top 4 of Kaberle, Schenn, Beauchemin and Komisarek. To me that is very reminiscent of the 2006 Habs

immobile D.

Again, despite my hate of the Leafs, I'm going to choke back the bile and defend some of their players...the mobility of Kaberle, Komisarek and Schenn is NOT exactly immobile...and further, the Habs 2006 D was hardly "immobile".

Markov, Streit, Komisarek, Rivet and Dandenault were all on the 2006-07 D...none of those players had terrible mobility.

[Habsfan]

I think you guys are overly harsh on Komisarek...turnovers are also a function of minutes played, the players role, the type of offense being run, the players around you receiving the pass, forwards back-checking, etc...

Komisarek is a fine top pairing d-man on many teams.

I also find it amusing that anyone would say Mara "battles more" or is "tougher" then Komisarek. It's incredibly ridiculous IMO.

I also find it hilarious that people all of a sudden think Gill is a solid d-man now that he's on the Habs. Or that Komi is mediocre now that he's on the Leafs...and I hate the Leafs as much as any fan.

Take off the homer coloured sunglasses guys.

Well said! I agree with Zowpeb!

[Dalhabs]

I think you guys are overly harsh on Komisarek...turnovers are also a function of minutes played, the players role, the type of offense being run, the players around you receiving the pass, forwards back-checking, etc...

Komisarek is a fine top pairing d-man on many teams.

I also find it amusing that anyone would say Mara "battles more" or is "tougher" then Komisarek. It's incredibly ridiculous IMO.

I also find it hilarious that people all of a sudden think Gill is a solid d-man now that he's on the Habs. Or that Komi is mediocre now that he's on the Leafs...and I hate the Leafs as much as any fan.

Take off the homer coloured sunglasses guys.

Still Gill looked great for the Pens in the playoffs. Holmström was made kinda useless since he couldnt stay in front of the pens net thanks to Gill.

Still wouldve loved to have Komi instead though but since Komi wants to be a leaf more than a habs I think he can eat old womens dirty underwear.

[Easy Ryder]

We've seen toughness throught this camp but i didn't see a new identity.

Those 5 games were a complete waste of valuable time to mold a team.

Whatever the lines nobody has an idea of his role on a trio, or who swapt position with the D

man. Starting tomorrow i would like to see every day the same lines that will be there

This is not a team right now this is a bunch of players looking at each other, no wonder no forward

scores.

And on D, nobody knows who's gonna play L or R yet...

Best news would be to send them all Sergei K, Paccioretti, Maxwell, Subban, Weber in Scotland

while keeping the most experience players here and try to build something.