Scary thought regarding Muller

[hab29RETIRED]

It's pretty sad state, when you find yourself waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the habs Especially, when you also manage to wake your wife up in the process

Anyway, a scary thought hit me about next year. With NJ hiring Lemaire as a caretaker this year, I could see NJ poaching another ex-habs as the head coach next year. Muller has history with the devils being Captain Kirk in NJ, before being dealt to Montreal over a contract dispute. I think he is probably ready for a shot and Montreal probably isn't the right spot (language issue aside ), since assistants rarely succeed when promoted to a head coach.

I think he would be just the kind of guy Lou want in NJ, the only saving grace would be the flop that Muller's old linemate MacLean was this year. But I can't imagine what the dynamic duo of Count chocula and Pearn, would be without Muller.

Edited January 21, 2011 by hab29RETIRED

[Wamsley01]

It's pretty sad state, when you find yourself waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the habs Especially, when you also manage to wake your wife up in the process

Anyway, a scary thought hit me about next year. With NJ hiring Lemaire as a caretaker this year, I could see NJ poaching another ex-habs as the head coach next year. Muller has history with the devils being Captain Kirk in NJ, before being dealt to Montreal over a contract dispute. I think he is probably ready for a shot and Montreal probably isn't the right spot (language issue aside ), since assistants rarely succeed when promoted to a head coach.

I think he would be just the kind of guy Lou want in NJ, the only saving grace would be the flop that Muller's old linemate MacLean was this year. But I can't imagine what the dynamic duo of Count chocula and Pearn, would be without Muller.

So we are back into the Muller is responsible for the teams success, but the guy who won 500+ NHL games before Muller is a boob?

[dlbalr]

There was speculation he might be a candidate last offseason so it's a legitimate concern, I'd think. Almost every team has that worry, though. I like Muller too but there are other assistant coaches out there - heck, I've long suspected since the summer that current Hamilton coach Randy Cunneyworth (someone Martin loved with Ottawa) is earmarked for an assistant role with the Habs in the next year or two, either when Muller leaves or Pearn.

[saskhab]

Dude, you need to relax a bit!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Ha ha, I think the only time I lost serious sleep due to hockey was the night before the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal Game. I wanted Team Canada to win SO bad and was terrified of the consequences for our hockey program if we didn't.

Muller probably will get poached eventually. But see Wamsley's wise point that JM is not exactly a drooling idiot and that we will likely continue to be well-coached in Muller's absence. Also, the idea that Muller is indispensable is surely a bit of a stretch. Almost nobody is. Whatever his merits, I doubt he's Scotty Bowman redux.

[Wamsley01]

Ha ha, I think the only time I lost serious sleep due to hockey was the night before the 2002 Olympic Gold Medal Game. I wanted Team Canada to win SO bad and was terrified of the consequences for our hockey program if we didn't.

Muller probably will get poached eventually. But see Wamsley's wise point that JM is not exactly a drooling idiot and that we will likely continue to be well-coached in Muller's absence. Also, the idea that Muller is indispensable is surely a bit of a stretch. Almost nobody is. Whatever his merits, I doubt he's Scotty Bowman redux.

Muller didn't save the 2009 Canadiens. Muller didn't save the 2008 Canadiens against the Flyers. Muller didn't help Martin to the Conference Finals in 2003. Muller didn't help Martin win 500+ games. Muller didn't help turn Patrick Lalime into a fraudulent All-Star.

It is confirmation bias. The point can easily be made in reverse that Muller had little playoff success without Martin.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Wamsley01

[hab29RETIRED]

Muller didn't save the 2009 Canadiens. Muller didn't save the 2008 Canadiens against the Flyers. Muller didn't help Martin to the Conference Finals in 2003. Muller didn't help Martin win 500+ games. Muller didn't help turn Patrick Lalime into a fraudulent All-Star.

It is confirmation bias. The point can easily be made in reverse that Muller had little playoff success without Martin.

How many head coaches are there in the league that stand around with their arms crossed, while his assistant draws up the play in the last minute, the net empty when the team is trying to tie the game?

I'm not saying Muller is the second coming of Bowman, but he is the only member of our coaching staff that I've got any confidence in. he is also the only oneyou here the players on the team consistently praise.

I don't give a rats ass off what Martin did in Ottawa - the guy replacing him did better with Ray the friggin head case Emery.

[JGC21]

How many head coaches are there in the league that stand around with their arms crossed, while his assistant draws up the play in the last minute, the net empty when the team is trying to tie the game?

I'm not saying Muller is the second coming of Bowman, but he is the only member of our coaching staff that I've got any confidence in. he is also the only oneyou here the players on the team consistently praise.

I don't give a rats ass off what Martin did in Ottawa - the guy replacing him did better with Ray the friggin head case Emery.

While I agree it doesn't matter what Martin did in Ottawa to justify him being a good coach today, I think Muller could also benefit from being around experienced veterans a while longer. He spent two seasons with Carbonneau and now almost two seasons with Martin. If he's willing to stay, I'd love both Martin & Muller back next year. After that, let's see if he's up to the task of head coaching, and maybe even Montreal.

Besides, I think New Jersey will go for an experienced coach next year like Fat, sorry Pat Quinn.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

While I agree it doesn't matter what Martin did in Ottawa to justify him being a good coach today, I think Muller could also benefit from being around experienced veterans a while longer. He spent two seasons with Carbonneau and now almost two seasons with Martin. If he's willing to stay, I'd love both Martin & Muller back next year. After that, let's see if he's up to the task of head coaching, and maybe even Montreal.

Besides, I think New Jersey will go for an experienced coach next year like Fat, sorry Pat Quinn.

But Kirk couldn't be our coach. He's not bilingual.

That's something the Martin bashers have to consider. Thanks to Montreal's stupid managerial affirmative-action program, the issue is not whether we have the best coach available, but whether we have the best francophone coach available. Even Scotty Bowman would never be hired to coach us now.

You also have to ask whether it would be in Muller's best interest to leave a solid

organization like Montreal to join what appears to be a basket case in NJ. Come to think of it, even before the wheels fell off, Lamouriello (sp?) had a habit of arbitrarily decapitating coaches. I'm not sure that, if I had a nice comfy job with a good organization, I'd leave to go stick MY head on the block in Jersey.

Edited January 21, 2011 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

How many head coaches are there in the league that stand around with their arms crossed, while his assistant draws up the play in the last minute, the net empty when the team is trying to tie the game?

I'm not saying Muller is the second coming of Bowman, but he is the only member of our coaching staff that I've got any confidence in. he is also the only oneyou here the players on the team consistently praise.

I don't give a rats ass off what Martin did in Ottawa - the guy replacing him did better with Ray the friggin head case Emery.

What does this mean? You are saying nothing.

You have NO IDEA what Muller does to make them better but it must be better because Martin crosses his arms? You have confidence in Muller why again? Because he has conversations with his players that you are not privy to and isn't calm?

Please provide ONE ANSWER with actual insight and not speculation and uninformed opinion as to why Muller is indispensible and responsible for the success.

You never do. All you ever do is offer up platitudes as to why Martin sucks.

BTW. Ray Emery WAS BETTER than Lalime.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Wamsley01

[hab29RETIRED]

What does this mean? You are saying nothing.

You have NO IDEA what Muller does to make them better but it must be better because Martin crosses his arms? You have confidence in Muller why again? Because he has conversations with his players that you are not privy to and isn't calm?

Please provide ONE ANSWER with actual insight and not speculation and uninformed opinion as to why Muller is indispensible and responsible for the success.

You never do. All you ever do is offer up platitudes as to why Martin sucks.

BTW. Ray Emery WAS BETTER than Lalime.

What evidence do you have that Muller isn't indispensible for the team's success - the one bad year that the whole Habs team had?? If so, why was he the only one retained? Why is it that everytime the players are quoted as commending the coaching, they are generally referring to Martin. Who did the habs players commend in interviews last year for making the necessary adjusements in the media.

What information are you privy to that makes you like Martin so much. Martin's comments regarding Subban when Richards took a shot at him or his comment after Subban's OT celebration were a joke.

I didn't see anything in Emery to suggest he was any worse or better then Lalime. He had two good years and the biggest difference was he didn't have to face the leafs who always seemed to knock out Martin's teams from the playoffs and while they generally got better goaltending, it generally also came down to Martin being outcoached by Quinn.

How many head coaches are not even INVOLVED in discussing the play and are standing off to the side when they are putting together a play to get the tying goal in the last minute of play. What

[JoeLassister]

But Kirk couldn't be our coach. He's not bilingual.

That's something the Martin bashers have to consider. Thanks to Montreal's stupid managerial affirmative-action program, the issue is not whether we have the best coach available, but whether we have the best francophone coach available. Even Scotty Bowman would never be hired to coach us now.

You also have to ask whether it would be in Muller's best interest to leave a solid

organization like Montreal to join what appears to be a basket case in NJ. Come to think of it, even before the wheels fell off, Lamouriello (sp?) had a habit of arbitrarily decapitating coaches. I'm not sure that, if I had a nice comfy job with a good organization, I'd leave to go stick MY head on the block in Jersey.

Will Geof Molson end this "the-head-coach-has-to-be-bilingual" thing ?

And if he dares ending it, I suspect Kirk Muller would be a great fit. He wore the C for the Habs and still generally loved and respected by the fans around here.

[hab29RETIRED]

Will Geof Molson end this "the-head-coach-has-to-be-bilingual" thing ?

And if he dares ending it, I suspect Kirk Muller would be a great fit. He wore the C for the Habs and still generally loved and respected by the fans around here.

I'd love to see him get the chance now that Boucher is no longer a possibility in the near future. But looking at the track record of assistant coaches who are promoted to head coaches immidiately after the head coach is axed i'd be weary of him taking over from JM. I'm having a hard time thinking of any assistant who has had success. I don't think that Carbo taking over from Gainey counts, since that was clearly a short-term planned transition that was clearly communicated before Carbo came in. But every other example I can think of, the assistant usually flopped when having to make the relationship change with the players.

[Habsfan84]

And if he dares ending it, I suspect Kirk Muller would be a great fit. He wore the C for the Habs and still generally loved and respected by the fans around here.

There has to be a reason why Muller was kept when all the other coaches were let go. I believe that the Habs have a plan for Muller to be our future head coach, but are just grooming him right now. Martin is a great mentor for Muller since he has been around so long. I think that Muller also knows that he is going to be the next coach in Montreal when the organization feels he is ready and at that point they will let Martin go. My prediction is 2-3 years and Muller will be our head coach. If my prediction is correct, I dont see why Muller would leave. New Jersey is not a coach friendly team.

[hab29RETIRED]

There has to be a reason why Muller was kept when all the other coaches were let go. I believe that the Habs have a plan for Muller to be our future head coach, but are just grooming him right now. Martin is a great mentor for Muller since he has been around so long. I think that Muller also knows that he is going to be the next coach in Montreal when the organization feels he is ready and at that point they will let Martin go. My prediction is 2-3 years and Muller will be our head coach. If my prediction is correct, I dont see why Muller would leave. New Jersey is not a coach friendly team.

last year it was reported that Muller was close to leaving and if an oppertunity did come up during the summer, there aren't many people who turn down a head coaching job to stay on as an assistant. But aside from the language issue, the thing that would concern me, is whether he would be successful beause of the relationship change with the players. As I've said before, I've been trying to think of a successful move from assistant to head coach, but can't think of anyone. Can any one think of an example where someone did have success moving up immidiately with the same organization?

Edited January 22, 2011 by hab29RETIRED

[dlbalr]

last year it was reported that Muller was close to leaving and if an oppertunity did come up during the summer, there aren't many people who turn down a head coaching job to stay on as an assistant. But aside from the language issue, the thing that would concern me, is whether he would be successful beause of the relationship change with the players. As I've said before, I've been trying to think of a successful move from assistant to head coach, but can't think of anyone. Can any one think of an example where someone did have success moving up immidiately with the same organization?

Only one that I immediately thought of was Dave Lewis with Detroit. He was a longtime assistant and took over for 2 years right after Bowman retired. The Wings won 48 games for the 2 years he was head coach but went out early in the playoffs so even that wasn't entirely successful.

[Wamsley01]

What evidence do you have that Muller isn't indispensible for the team's success - the one bad year that the whole Habs team had?? If so, why was he the only one retained? Why is it that everytime the players are quoted as commending the coaching, they are generally referring to Martin. Who did the habs players commend in interviews last year for making the necessary adjusements in the media.

What information are you privy to that makes you like Martin so much. Martin's comments regarding Subban when Richards took a shot at him or his comment after Subban's OT celebration were a joke.

I didn't see anything in Emery to suggest he was any worse or better then Lalime. He had two good years and the biggest difference was he didn't have to face the leafs who always seemed to knock out Martin's teams from the playoffs and while they generally got better goaltending, it generally also came down to Martin being outcoached by Quinn.

How many head coaches are not even INVOLVED in discussing the play and are standing off to the side when they are putting together a play to get the tying goal in the last minute of play. What

Once again you have presented NOTHING to discredit Martin outside of empty rhetoric.

I am not discrediting Martin or Muller, YOU are the one who continually assaults Martin and have never presented any type of analysis

to prove any type of point. It is all base level bitching and moaning that does not break down anything. You cherry pick negatives and

brush off positives.

I ask you why Muller is so indispensible that you lose sleep. Your response?

What evidence do you have that Muller isn't indispensible for the team's success

Really? I don't know what Kirk Muller's role is. I don't know what he works on in practice. I don't know if he is indispensible.

You are fully capable of crediting Halak and Muller for the 2010 playoff run, then tell me Martin was outcoached by Quinn.

So Montreal is outshot 290-193 and Martin was saved by his goaltender, but Ottawa outshoots Toronto 238-154 and Quinn outcoached Martin?

INCONSISTENT REASONING. CONFIRMATION BIAS. Choose which one you prefer.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Will Geof Molson end this "the-head-coach-has-to-be-bilingual" thing ?

And if he dares ending it, I suspect Kirk Muller would be a great fit. He wore the C for the Habs and still generally loved and respected by the fans around here.

I sure hope Molson takes this bulls*t by the horns. And yes, I'd love to see a seamless transition from JM to Muller at some point - now that would really speak to an organization that has its act together.

Who knows, maybe Muller could get away with it. Certainly if Louis Leblanc or one or two other impact francophone players materialize, and the very French Gautheir remains GM, it *might* be saleable to the ravenous jackals of the French press and thus, fans. Might.

[JoeLassister]

I sure hope Molson takes this bulls*t by the horns. And yes, I'd love to see a seamless transition from JM to Muller at some point - now that would really speak to an organization that has its act together.

Who knows, maybe Muller could get away with it. Certainly if Louis Leblanc or one or two other impact francophone players materialize, and the very French Gautheir remains GM, it *might* be saleable to the ravenous jackals of the French press and thus, fans. Might.

Tremblay and Raymond would bash til death, but I've never been convinced that they were speaking for the majority on this case.

[BCHabnut]

This is too funny. I wish I could go back threee or four years to the "system" discussions. All anyone cared about was systems and how the team didn't have one. Media incluced. The thing I see from a JM coached team is structure. When Babcock discussed the game against the Habs he said that they play a lot like the wings. They are very structured in how they do everything.

I like watching this team play. Yes there are a few man power issues right now, but JM's structure may be what has kept this team in the hunt for the last two years. Previous to JM, a Markov injury meant a serious losing streak.

The flip side to this is that Martin does not appear to be that creative when things are going bad.He doesn't seem to be able to massage his system to beat teams that play tough, shutdown hockey. This might have been a manpower issue as well, and having Patches and Darche willing to take punishment in front might help that.

Honestly, I am not willing to judge a coach until he has a full roster. JM has not had a full roster for more than 10 games. This team is doing pretty good considering 2 of their top four "D" are out for the year.

[BTH]

What evidence do you have that Muller isn't indispensible for the team's success - the one bad year that the whole Habs team had?? If so, why was he the only one retained? Why is it that everytime the players are quoted as commending the coaching, they are generally referring to Martin. Who did the habs players commend in interviews last year for making the necessary adjusements in the media.

What information are you privy to that makes you like Martin so much. Martin's comments regarding Subban when Richards took a shot at him or his comment after Subban's OT celebration were a joke.

I didn't see anything in Emery to suggest he was any worse or better then Lalime. He had two good years and the biggest difference was he didn't have to face the leafs who always seemed to knock out Martin's teams from the playoffs and while they generally got better goaltending, it generally also came down to Martin being outcoached by Quinn.

How many head coaches are not even INVOLVED in discussing the play and are standing off to the side when they are putting together a play to get the tying goal in the last minute of play. What

Based on their play, do you think this is a well coached team?

If yes, Martin deserves a share of that credit.

If not, Muller deserves a share of that blame.

This is too funny. I wish I could go back threee or four years to the "system" discussions. All anyone cared about was systems and how the team didn't have one. Media incluced. The thing I see from a JM coached team is structure. When Babcock discussed the game against the Habs he said that they play a lot like the wings. They are very structured in how they do everything.

I like watching this team play. Yes there are a few man power issues right now, but JM's structure may be what has kept this team in the hunt for the last two years. Previous to JM, a Markov injury meant a serious losing streak.

The flip side to this is that Martin does not appear to be that creative when things are going bad.He doesn't seem to be able to massage his system to beat teams that play tough, shutdown hockey. This might have been a manpower issue as well, and having Patches and Darche willing to take punishment in front might help that.

Honestly, I am not willing to judge a coach until he has a full roster. JM has not had a full roster for more than 10 games. This team is doing pretty good considering 2 of their top four "D" are out for the year.

Agreed but I don't feel like the team is struggling due to injuries - or that they're struggling at all. I was actually happy with the way they played last night. I thought they were unusually aggressive on the forecheck and full of energy (even if Anaheim's strong defensive play limited their scoring chances). Their record over the past few games is great.

The young players in particular are doing abnormally well. Pacioretty is emerging as a legitimate NHL top 6 forward, Eller has earned his role in the line up, Desharnais is already being trusted with 15 minutes a game, Subban apparently was NOT ruined by his benching () and is doing great, White and Engvist were called up from the AHL and immediately inserted onto the PK, and Pouliot and Kostitsyn have been reliable.

But there will be no mention of Martin's success at handling these young players. Instead, let's wait until the Habs lose 4 out of 5 games and half of these players are in slumps to call Martin out as a 'dinosaur.'

[hab29RETIRED]

Based on their play, do you think this is a well coached team?

If yes, Martin deserves a share of that credit.

If not, Muller deserves a share of that blame.

Agreed but I don't feel like the team is struggling due to injuries - or that they're struggling at all. I was actually happy with the way they played last night. I thought they were unusually aggressive on the forecheck and full of energy (even if Anaheim's strong defensive play limited their scoring chances). Their record over the past few games is great.

The young players in particular are doing abnormally well. Pacioretty is emerging as a legitimate NHL top 6 forward, Eller has earned his role in the line up, Desharnais is already being trusted with 15 minutes a game, Subban apparently was NOT ruined by his benching () and is doing great, White and Engvist were called up from the AHL and immediately inserted onto the PK, and Pouliot and Kostitsyn have been reliable.

But there will be no mention of Martin's success at handling these young players. Instead, let's wait until the Habs lose 4 out of 5 games and half of these players are in slumps to call Martin out as a 'dinosaur.'

I think this is the typical Habs frustrating team. A team that goes to sleep mode when they are up and do everything they can to let the other team back in the game. They tend to show the necessary urgency when they are behind near the end of the game. The positive is that through the last 10 stretch of games they are actually showing that they can come back - unlike earlier in the year when they were behind, they were pretty much dead in the water.

The biggest issue I have with the coaching of this team is that their overall coaching strategy doesn't exploit our strengths. To me the overall coaching style is on the head coach. THis is a VERY fast team, that doesn't play the aggressive forechecking style that would exploit that speed. They are coached to be a sit back rope a dope team -that over relies on sensational goaltending to be successful. When Price is exceptional and is on his game, they win, when he is good they MIGHT win and when he is even a little off, they usually lose. He really hasn't been truly bad this year, which would have resulted in much more losses.

I also don't like Martin's personnel decisions. While I agree Darche plays great for the skill set he has,and that you certainly have to give him an "A' for effort. But if AK46, Pouliot, Eller, or MaxPac had the same numbers as Darche given the prime he is getting on the PP, people would be crucifying them. Yes Darche brings a lot of effort every game, but so does Kris Draper. I don't recall Babcock putting Draper on every PP.

Goal scorers are streaky - if they weren't they would all score 40-70 goals. YOu need to ride their highs and their lows. Its up to the coach to keep them motivated. If guys like Pouliot or AK46 see leaders like gomez or Cammy take stupid selfish penalities without any repurcussions from the coach, what is going to truly cause them to stop. AK46 and Pouliot have been hot lately, so that is all on Martin. As soon as they go into their next slump they are bums and should be moved right???

As far as how well Subban has played, his play picked up AFTER Martin was FORCED to play him because of key injuries. Subban was not getting prime time and he looked lost until Gorges went down and Martin had no choice to play him. Desharnais did not sniff any ice time on the PP - while Darche was getting a shot every PP, until injuries/illness knocked out the usual PP players. On the other hand, until the most recent injuries, Desharnais was playing mainly with Moen and Pyatt - great guys to bring out his offensive talent

As far as Enqvist seeing PK time, he has been shutdown in the AHL and I've been wanting to see White up all season, but playing them together on the PK their first game up?????

When I see the bench dynamics - VERY LITTLE communciation by Martin to his players, Muller running the plays, talking to the players, that is like BOwman in the 70's - not at all like today's successful coaches like Babcock or Lavliolette - who was the guy I was hoping the Habs would get when he was available. His got a french sounding name that should count for something - then again, probably not - for some of the montreal media, Pouliot isn't french enough since he is not Quebecois

It doesn't matter if the habs are winning or losing (OK, at least I'm happy when they win), I don't like Martin's style, I don't like the way he handles young players, I don't like the way he never sticks up for his players, unless their veterns - stuck up for Cammy for a bonehead play that got him suspended in pre-season, but criticizes Subban for his OT winner celebration????? BTW, did anyone see Subban celebrate when MaxPac scored the tying goal against Anaheim Saterday. Should Subban start jumping up and down for joy when he or a teammate scores a big goal and become a stoic robot like Martin????

Edited January 24, 2011 by hab29RETIRED

[CoRvInA]

For Muller's sake he should be so lucky to be able to get the experience of being head coach.. He has to at some point. All assitant coaches wanna have a shot at HC. My worry would be, and again its my opinion that JM works as much with PG than he does with his assistant coaches...

I think Pearn and Muller have more say than the average asst-coaches in this league do.

If Muller goes then we need a very hands on coach to replace him. If so I would be happy to get two more active Ass-Coaches e.g. Larry Robinson and another vociferous coach behind the bench. I for one don't like passive looking coaches during the games.. yet again we only see from afar!

[JoeLassister]

Posted on Cyberpresse tuesday morning 6h25am.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/201101/24/01-4363325-kirk-muller-changera-de-banc-la-saison-prochaine.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_B4_manchettes_231_accueil_POS3

François Gagnon basically says that " credible sources guarantee that Muller would have clearly indicated an intention to stand on its own feet as soon as next year" and that, "after a few seconds of reflection, he politely refused to answer a question about that" when asked after the Ducks game.

Now, take it for what it worths, but Gagnon ain't no Jean Perron...

[saskhab]

Posted on Cyberpresse tuesday morning 6h25am.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hockey/201101/24/01-4363325-kirk-muller-changera-de-banc-la-saison-prochaine.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_B4_manchettes_231_accueil_POS3

François Gagnon basically says that " credible sources guarantee that Muller would have clearly indicated an intention to stand on its own feet as soon as next year" and that, "after a few seconds of reflection, he politely refused to answer a question about that" when asked after the Ducks game.

Now, take it for what it worths, but Gagnon ain't no Jean Perron...

I know Friedman at CBC said last year that a lot of execs want Muller to take an AHL head coaching gig to ready himself for the big job, so it's possible he'll be doing that next year and not taking a NHL job as presumed. Hard to know. I figured we could've made him our AHL coach, but that didn't happen. The Devils made Maclean go to the AHL, though that didn't work out too hot for them when they did hire him. Who knows, I suppose. Next year's problem.

Good for Kirk if he is advancing his career.