patience is a virtue Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 We've upped the toughness amongest the forwards, they can take care of any glove droppings that are necessary. Do they really struggle? Not being sarcastic, I just haven't really noticed this as a huge problem. I think both Emelin and PK are strong as bulls and will only improve in this dimension of the game... Not saying our D-corps is good - it's not. But its being 'soft' is not the primary issue to my mind. I could be proven wrong, of course. I know, i mentioned earlier that Moan-White-Prust were some of first to get signed, and i also said i am happy with the group of 8 and love Bouillon's grit. But to say this isnt a soft group is a bit off and what i was disagreeing with. Subban and Yemelin might be feared hitters, but that is it, if Price is run over a forward will need to answer the bell and stick up for Price, which may be fine, but a bigger guy like Nash/Pateryn/Tinordi/Ellis will be a bonus soon. Which is why many were for signing Allen, me included, but Bouillon will suffice for 1 more year till bigger reinforcements develop. If Bergevin can trade Kaberle, that might be super to free up a 3rd pairing spot for Diaz and would only ask for need to ask for picks/prospects back. But i am fine with Kaberle staying, he is a top scoring d-man at a reasonable cost. The above comments stand out to me as I read over the thread early this fine morning. I wholeheartedly agree that we don't need fighters on D with Prust and White in the house. Cube will contribute somewhat as well. Add the agressive play of Moen, Armstrong, Subban and Emelin and the Habs are now officially tough - whatever that is worth (huge debate there Yet the D is indeed a bit soft and the arrival of Tinordi, Ellis and possible others will help in the years ahead. Kaberle is no doubt the softest of the bunch, but I don't get the fairly widespread undervaluing of him. I think it is residual anti-Laff bias at play. He has a consistent track record as a playmaker and ranked 40th in dman point production last year despite the disruption of playing for two new teams in one season. I am also surprised to find that he has missed relatively little time to injury over the years. I predict that he will make us all very happy as our 5th dman and 2nd PP QB this season. Another 30-40 point campaign is totally realistic, but he is still young enough to do even better if he settles in and really clicks as a Hab. I also think our d-core has the potential to be well above average if Markov returns to form and Emelin continues to develop into one of the best physical players in hockey. PK, Markov, Gorges and Emelin make for a very well balanced and dynamic top four, IF all remain healthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 The above comments stand out to me as I read over the thread early this fine morning. I wholeheartedly agree that we don't need fighters on D with Prust and White in the house. Cube will contribute somewhat as well. Add the agressive play of Moen, Armstrong, Subban and Emelin and the Habs are now officially tough - whatever that is worth (huge debate there Yet the D is indeed a bit soft and the arrival of Tinordi, Ellis and possible others will help in the years ahead. Kaberle is no doubt the softest of the bunch, but I don't get the fairly widespread undervaluing of him. I think it is residual anti-Laff bias at play. He has a consistent track record as a playmaker and ranked 40th in dman point production last year despite the disruption of playing for two new teams in one season. I am also surprised to find that he has missed relatively little time to injury over the years. I predict that he will make us all very happy as our 5th dman and 2nd PP QB this season. Another 30-40 point campaign is totally realistic, but he is still young enough to do even better if he settles in and really clicks as a Hab. I also think our d-core has the potential to be well above average if Markov returns to form and Emelin continues to develop into one of the best physical players in hockey. PK, Markov, Gorges and Emelin make for a very well balanced and dynamic top four, IF all remain healthy I am hoping that reduced minutes for Kaberle, plus pairing him with Bouillon will somewhat protect him, and keep him from hurting the team too much. Truthfully, I still don't like his game a lot, and would rather see Diaz out there, who, although smaller, is better defensively. I still like our top 4, and if we only need Kaberle to fill a top 4 role for a handfull of games (injuries), then we'll probably be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patience is a virtue Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I am hoping that reduced minutes for Kaberle, plus pairing him with Bouillon will somewhat protect him, and keep him from hurting the team too much. Truthfully, I still don't like his game a lot, and would rather see Diaz out there, who, although smaller, is better defensively. I still like our top 4, and if we only need Kaberle to fill a top 4 role for a handfull of games (injuries), then we'll probably be ok. This is exactly the kind of attitude towards Kabs I don't understand. Sure, he is on the downside of his career and he is soft. But he is a proven elite puck moving dman who ranked 40th amongst ALL NHL DMEN for points last season despite playing for two brand new teams/having an off year. He is expensive for a 5-6th dman, but few teams can boast having that kind of skill on their third pairing, considering that there are only 38 dmen in the whole league who bested his output last year and that he has been in the top 10 (or 13) point producers for many years prior to that. We cannot expect that from him anymore, but 30+ points are very realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 This is exactly the kind of attitude towards Kabs I don't understand. Sure, he is on the downside of his career and he is soft. But he is a proven elite puck moving dman who ranked 40th amongst ALL NHL DMEN for points last season despite playing for two brand new teams/having an off year. He is expensive for a 5-6th dman, but few teams can boast having that kind of skill on their third pairing, considering that there are only 38 dmen in the whole league who bested his output last year and that he has been in the top 10 (or 13) point producers for many years prior to that. We cannot expect that from him anymore, but 30+ points are very realistic. To be honest, I must agree with this. Also, I've never disliked his defensive play THAT much... He's not the guy you play against Crosby, but he's not AHLer material either in terms of defensive skills ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 To be honest, I must agree with this. Also, I've never disliked his defensive play THAT much... He's not the guy you play against Crosby, but he's not AHLer material either in terms of defensive skills ... The hate-on for Kaberle has never been particularly reasonable. Sure, he's overpaid, but not so much that it cripples the team in any way. It's funny how people only hate one-dimensional players when the dimension they bring is offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 This is exactly the kind of attitude towards Kabs I don't understand. Sure, he is on the downside of his career and he is soft. But he is a proven elite puck moving dman who ranked 40th amongst ALL NHL DMEN for points last season despite playing for two brand new teams/having an off year. He is expensive for a 5-6th dman, but few teams can boast having that kind of skill on their third pairing, considering that there are only 38 dmen in the whole league who bested his output last year and that he has been in the top 10 (or 13) point producers for many years prior to that. We cannot expect that from him anymore, but 30+ points are very realistic. Then you're pretty much saying exactly what I said above. I don't care what he did before, and I don't want to see him placed in the top 4 or given more ice time than he can handle. I fail to see any 'hate' in what I said about the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patience is a virtue Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Then you're pretty much saying exactly what I said above. I don't care what he did before, and I don't want to see him placed in the top 4 or given more ice time than he can handle. I fail to see any 'hate' in what I said about the guy. i'm not accusing you of hating, just undevaluing and seeking to shelter a high-end, if no longer elite, offensive dman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 i'm not accusing you of hating, just undevaluing and seeking to shelter a high-end, if no longer elite, offensive dman. A 5-6th offensive d-man is no longer high-end. He is a guy you don't want caught out against any top 2 lines in the league, he is soft, he is, in my opinion, a defensive liability. That being said, as I stated many times, I like our defense, baring any long term injuries to our top 4. I like Diaz better since he is also capable offensively, did a decent job in his own end, and has more room to improve. I'm sorry, you never made to hate comment, that was in response to another post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 A this point if we could shed a little bit of salary and get rid of a Weber for instance then I would seriously consider Kubina. He can be a secondary PP player and be a steady influence for Kaberle. Only if he would sign for relatively cheap that is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 A this point if we could shed a little bit of salary and get rid of a Weber for instance then I would seriously consider Kubina. He can be a secondary PP player and be a steady influence for Kaberle. Only if he would sign for relatively cheap that is Actually, I don't see us making a move on d until training camp, and then, if everyone seems healthy and good to go, I could see Weber traded for a pick, and thats about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Im hoping Weber is gone. Forget these premonitions of being better on another team. He doesn't have a spot now and we don't need him. Get what you can for him. I'd like to see us make a play for Keaton Ellerby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 I can't see many ways that we don't lose Weber. We can't demote him to AHL, and I don't think he'd be content to watch from the pressbox all year, either. He won't be playing forward this season, as we now have good depth on bottom 2 forward lines. In my mind, he's behind Kaberle and Diaz in the depth chart. He Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 There are quite a few teams who would take a chance on a kid with his type of shot making under $1 million a year. He'd fit in nicely with Detroit for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 There are quite a few teams who would take a chance on a kid with his type of shot making under $1 million a year. He'd fit in nicely with Detroit for instance. Thats why we should try to trade him, rather than lose him through wavers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Thats why we should try to trade him, rather than lose him through wavers. I highly doubt Bergevin-Dudley have forgotten about having 8 NHL d-men and have a bi tbetter idea of realistic options for Weber than you or me. I had thought he was gone in Feb- then at draft- then for sure on July 1st, so now i assume not many takers for him or maybe, Beregevin has a taker for Kaberle or others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Til this offseason I'd argue Kaberle was overpaid but $4.25MM doesn't get you much these days. Pair him with Boullion and 2nd PP unit - can never have enough depth on D with Markov one hit away from being gone again. I liked Diaz over Weber on the PP so Yannick is the odd man out, try and trade him to the Jackets to get our 2013 4th rounder back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Thing with Kaberle is that yes he struggles 5 on 5 but he does do well usually on the PP Unfortunately he is a player like Markov. Excels on that left point feeding a left handed shot with a big bomb. Assuming there are little changes to the blueline IMO that has to mean Emelin. With that said Kaberle did put up some really good numbers while he was part of the team. His problem is that he was basically paired with rookies his entire season who are learning the game, whether it be Emelin, Diaz or Weber. I wonder what would happen if he was paired with an established defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Til this offseason I'd argue Kaberle was overpaid but $4.25MM doesn't get you much these days. Pair him with Boullion and 2nd PP unit - can never have enough depth on D with Markov one hit away from being gone again. I liked Diaz over Weber on the PP so Yannick is the odd man out, try and trade him to the Jackets to get our 2013 4th rounder back. It's the Islanders that have the pick actually. I'm sure the idea still stands though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 It's the Islanders that have the pick actually. I'm sure the idea still stands though. Islanders are probably more likely to look at Weber than the Blue Jackets anyways. The Jackets have a lot of young defencemen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Yeah brain cramp was thinking where Wiz is vs where we got him from, either way Howson or Snow should be like candy from a baby to get a 4th for Yannick. Getting a little anxious for the Subban contract announcement, Holmgren had no comment when asked if he's submitting an offer sheet for PK, unlikely after losing out on Weber but could pull a Lowe and try again right away - not that MB wouldn't match but who knows what stupid money the Flyers would offer if they did and how that would screw us for building a contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 What does it matter if an offer sheet is given to PK. What will the amount be? Will it be $6-7 million a year? In all likelyhood if an offer sheet is given it will be in the $4.5-$5.5 million range meaning MB will match and PK will be a Hab for life. An offer sheet s the least of my worries for PK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 What does it matter if an offer sheet is given to PK. What will the amount be? Will it be $6-7 million a year? In all likelyhood if an offer sheet is given it will be in the $4.5-$5.5 million range meaning MB will match and PK will be a Hab for life. An offer sheet s the least of my worries for PK Exactly. People should recognize the only reason Holmgren gave Weber that offer sheet is because he was convinced Nashville could not afford his first two years of bonuses. Montreal can afford anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 The habs have the revenue streams, and the players coming off their cap in the near future (Gomez, Kaberle, Markov, Gionta contracts all end in 2 years), to match any offer and then retaliate with a similar offer to that team’s key RFAs. It is not a strategy that makes sense. As I said in the article I wrote on the history of offer sheets. Historically the offer sheet happens in one of 2 scenarios. 1) a team is vulnerable, either you heavily front load the offer to hurt the recieving team’s ability to match as they are small market… or B you put a big cap hit on a player with a team who doesn’t have cap space. 2) Retaliation after someone messed with your players. Thats it… those are the two reaasons the offer sheet is used. PK doesn’t fit into situation 1 as the Habs have cash and cap space to match any realistic offer. Situation 2 is the reason you don’t mess with PK, you don’t want retaliation from a big market squad like Montreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I thought Bergevin was to speak to PK's agent last week. Has that happened or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 The habs have the revenue streams, and the players coming off their cap in the near future (Gomez, Kaberle, Markov, Gionta contracts all end in 2 years), to match any offer and then retaliate with a similar offer to that team’s key RFAs. It is not a strategy that makes sense. As I said in the article I wrote on the history of offer sheets. Historically the offer sheet happens in one of 2 scenarios. 1) a team is vulnerable, either you heavily front load the offer to hurt the recieving team’s ability to match as they are small market… or B you put a big cap hit on a player with a team who doesn’t have cap space. 2) Retaliation after someone messed with your players. Thats it… those are the two reaasons the offer sheet is used. PK doesn’t fit into situation 1 as the Habs have cash and cap space to match any realistic offer. Situation 2 is the reason you don’t mess with PK, you don’t want retaliation from a big market squad like Montreal. Great post. In a well-ordered universe it would pretty much put paid to all subsequent speculations and arguments about the Habs making offers for RFAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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