Kiwihab Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 The worst thing with those types of deals is it sets the value for those types of players. Then big market teams have to pay more for average players, pushing both the cap floor and ceiling higher. It's a vicious circle, which I hope is broken during CBA negotiations. (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Ovi change in playing style. Staal nearly killed his brother. With Datsyuk... check Detroits numbers in general, i believe there was a general decrease. Those are just some cases... but then someone like Cavy in tampa with that huge season. He just wasn't as good as that one season. He has been consistent since. You have to look at why people are giving those contracts. A dude has a phenomenal year! Never repeats it... but just happened to get a contract that year. Is it the contracts fault? Not likely, I'd say the player was just in the right circumstances. Example: Cheechoo... played with Thornton gets 56 goals and 37 goals (slow start)... then gets injured/stops playing with Thornton. (Yes his contract wasn't massive... but that can happen to a guy.) I agree with Commandant that there isn't a correlation with most players. There is... for a guy like Nikolai Bulin... I believe his numbers skyrocketed in contract years. OV, Staal & Datsyuk were actually guys I noted as not really changing much Pre-Post I'm sure if you went through every single player you can find an excuse but there's just too many to be a coincidence. Gomez, Redden, DiPietro, Yashin are the poster boys but Drury, Vinny, Heatley, Backstrom, Leino, Bouwmeester, Erhoff, Luongo, Horcoff, Bourque, Cammy, Booth, Phaneuf, Komisarek, Nash, Carter, B Richards, Wisniewski, Bryzgalov aren't really anything to write home about in their new deals People have their different opinions, my experience and looking at the numbers if I could keep guys on 3 year deals to keep an incentive there or to at least limit exposure if for whatever reason never repeat their career years you're not on the hook overpaying people for current performance based on either past performance or incorrect projections. Giving Subban a 5-6 year deal for big $$ would be a mistake both for his development and risk he never fulfills potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Ovi change in playing style. Staal nearly killed his brother. With Datsyuk... check Detroits numbers in general, i believe there was a general decrease. Those are just some cases... but then someone like Cavy in tampa with that huge season. He just wasn't as good as that one season. He has been consistent since. You have to look at why people are giving those contracts. A dude has a phenomenal year! Never repeats it... but just happened to get a contract that year. Is it the contracts fault? Not likely, I'd say the player was just in the right circumstances. Example: Cheechoo... played with Thornton gets 56 goals and 37 goals (slow start)... then gets injured/stops playing with Thornton. (Yes his contract wasn't massive... but that can happen to a guy.) I agree with Commandant that there isn't a correlation with most players. There is... for a guy like Nikolai Bulin... I believe his numbers skyrocketed in contract years. The problem is that RED cup has used an extremely small sample size (40 guys) and an extremely small window. Anyone with a knowledge of stats knows that this just isn't going to be a reliable look. One or two players or one particularly large year can skew the results too much. A league wide look at all players finds that there is virtually no correlation... nothing meaningful anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 More cause I got bored seeing the same pattern after 40 forwards and the 1st dozen D-men I looked at Didn't just look at a single year Pre-Post unless that's all they've played since they signed the big deal, many averaged out 3 years prior and 3 years post to compare properly Having everyone playing in a contract year was more an exaggeration to keeping players hungry, my main point is stats show most don't play as well after signing long term contracts and hardly any play better so why would we want to give a guy like PK, who's in his most critical development years as a d-man and a person, any reason to slack off? Knowing you have $5MM/year coming your way for the next 6 years regardless of how well you train, practice, play, work with teammates/coaches can't compare to Subban knowing that he has to work his butt off and seriously improve over the next 2 years to be worthy of the money he wants now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Seeing PK Subban's personality, this is one kid who is motivated by many things.... the least of which is money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoloCup Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 And you could be 100% right - hope that you are cause he has the talent to be top 10 dmen in the league and he's my favorite Habs dmen since Chelios Just trying to avoid the risk of complacency that I believe many of his fellow players suffer Guess we'll see when he signs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 I think Subban will be a star regardless. He has a drive to succeed which goes beyond money, I believe. He wants to be the best d-man in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I agree that it is important not to reward Subban undeservedly. God knows I love the kid, but he already has an outsized ego, which is always a standing danger in Montreal of all cities. PK needs to be sent a consistent, implacable message that all things (including great wealth) are within his grasp provided he lives up to his potential and earns it. He will never be a bad player - he's just too talented for that - but if he is to become the great player he can be, he will need to internalize this message. Giving him a massive contract despite his having not yet fulfilled his potential is exactly the wrong message to send. The right thing to do, in my opinion, is to pay him what his performance thus far has warranted: about $4 mil, 2-year deal. (Incidentally, I think Red is somewhat wrong about human motivation, but that's another story). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromage Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 The right thing to do, in my opinion, is to pay him what his performance thus far has warranted: about $4 mil, 2-year deal. so $4.5M-$5M per? He is a number 1 D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 so $4.5M-$5M per? He is a number 1 D Oh, pshaw. He's only #1 because our true #1 was injured for two years running. I think $4 mil is a fair recompense for his on-ice performance especially considering his RFA status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Me thinks he signs the exact same contract as Max did. Bergevin just painted Subban in a corner and he can't come out of this with anything much better than that (unless he signs for a longer term) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankhab Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 I doubt PK will get 4.5/year. Max had one of the best goal scoring seasons of any winger in the league, he has already reached the level of premier power forward in the NHL. He would be a first line winger on every single team in this league. I love PK, but he has not reached that status amongst his peers yet. I believe he will in the next 1-2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Habaddict had thing on Markov and when listed the 3 pairings, dosent seem to be that bad a group at all to me. 3 offensive puck-movers (Subban not so much, more a rusher than passer) and 3 defensively minded d-men. Markov paired with Yemelin Subban and Gorges Kaberle-Boullion (spell his name i never could and still have it wrong i think) I think Yemelin could really benefit from playing with best puck-mover and will never be a -18 again. But where does Diaz fit in, pressbox? let alone Weber, waived is his future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bostonhabs Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Seeing PK Subban's personality, this is one kid who is motivated by many things.... the least of which is money. And you know this how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 And you know this how? By watching the kid closely from Belleville to Hamilton to Today. The kid is driven to win and be the best player on the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs27 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Ya I think I like this line up and I feel we might not have the best quality NHL d men but we do have lots of them and that could a big asset after training camp when teams are looking to for some depth d men, plus we do tend to do go down with odd injury over the season Habaddict had thing on Markov and when listed the 3 pairings, dosent seem to be that bad a group at all to me. 3 offensive puck-movers (Subban not so much, more a rusher than passer) and 3 defensively minded d-men. Markov paired with Yemelin Subban and Gorges Kaberle-Boullion (spell his name i never could and still have it wrong i think) I think Yemelin could really benefit from playing with best puck-mover and will never be a -18 again. But where does Diaz fit in, pressbox? let alone Weber, waived is his future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Interesting fact about Cube: he played some of the lowest minutes for Nashville on PK or PP but was fourth behind Suter, Weber and Klein for even strength minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Interesting fact about Cube: he played some of the lowest minutes for Nashville on PK or PP but was fourth behind Suter, Weber and Klein for even strength minutes. I guess kind of makes sense. PP he is kind of useless as his offensive game is brutal. And on the PK he is too small to be effective down low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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