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Take this for what its worth, but I play in a rec league on PEI, I did not play last night, but apparently a couple of my teammates told me that after last nights game they were talking to Adam McQuaid who is buddies with Benoit Pouliot and he said that Pouliot told him Subban was not liked in the dressing room in Montreal, and the reason that Bergevin low balled him was that he was hoping that someone would give him an offer sheet.

I know that PK is very vocal and outspoken, but now I'm wondering if he is disliked as well.

This story was coming from a couple of douchebag leaf fans, but they did sound serious,

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There was a great interview with Hal Gill in the last couple of months and he had nothing but good things to say about PK, I'd take his word over Leaf fans

PKs offer (if reports are true) only looks lowball to the mega deals going around, it's pretty much exactly what Price was offered, why more teams don't use the RFA process to their advantage is beyond me

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The cap has only gone up about 14 million since Price got that offer.

If you wanted the exact same contract it would be about ~3.5 million per season for Subban given inflation.

Price and Subban aren't even comparables, really. Price was coming off a season where he'd lost the starter's job. Subban, in contrast, has been our #1/2 defenceman for two years running. Both are crucial to the franchise, but Subban is not coming off the relatively humiliating half-season Price was. So PK is in principle in a better negotiating position IMHO.

There's no question in my mind the Habs lowballed PK. 2 years at $4 million strikes me as fair value for Subban under the circumstances. After two years, you re-assess, based on whether he has fulfilled his all-star potential or pulled a Phaneuf and regressed.

I think it's conceivable - even probable - that many people in the organization, including some teammates, don't care for Subban's attitude. Hockey is a ridiculously sclerotic culture where swagger is viewed as a standing insult to the values of the game. If the Canadiens drive PK out for this reason it will be evidence that the new management is just more of the same in terms of wasting young assets, and bode very poorly for our future. You'd think we'd have learned from the disasters of Ribeiro, Grabovski, etc., that you have to be patient and work with youth rather than jettison anyone who comes off as a punk.

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Price and Subban aren't even comparables, really. Price was coming off a season where he'd lost the starter's job. Subban, in contrast, has been our #1/2 defenceman for two years running. Both are crucial to the franchise, but Subban is not coming off the relatively humiliating half-season Price was. So PK is in principle in a better negotiating position IMHO.

There's no question in my mind the Habs lowballed PK. 2 years at $4 million strikes me as fair value for Subban under the circumstances. After two years, you re-assess, based on whether he has fulfilled his all-star potential or pulled a Phaneuf and regressed.

I think it's conceivable - even probable - that many people in the organization, including some teammates, don't care for Subban's attitude. Hockey is a ridiculously sclerotic culture where swagger is viewed as a standing insult to the values of the game. If the Canadiens drive PK out for this reason it will be evidence that the new management is just more of the same in terms of wasting young assets, and bode very poorly for our future. You'd think we'd have learned from the disasters of Ribeiro, Grabovski, etc., that you have to be patient and work with youth rather than jettison anyone who comes off as a punk.

Price was coming off a spring where he was annointed as the #1 franchise goalie, via Halak trade. So for sure they would be comparable i think. No matter how important a d-man is, it is not in the ballpark of a young #1 goalie who will be relied on to play 60-65 games, in Montreal.

So a 2 year deal of 2.75-3.25/year is more than fair.

As far as Subban's character goes, i dont know if really is important at all to be liked or not, respected as a player for sure, but liked or not may be irrelevant. Egomaniacs/a-holes, like a Ricky Henderson/Ty Cobb/Manny Ramirez may rub teammates wrong, but you want him playing with you cause he is simply a super talent?

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Price was coming off a spring where he was annointed as the #1 franchise goalie, via Halak trade. So for sure they would be comparable i think. No matter how important a d-man is, it is not in the ballpark of a young #1 goalie who will be relied on to play 60-65 games, in Montreal.

So a 2 year deal of 2.75-3.25/year is more than fair.

Well, see Commandant's point about inflation. $4 mil makes perfect sense. The difference, to my mind, is that Price at 3.5 felt like a bit of a risk for those who were nervous about Price's uneven development tragectory. 3.5 for PK feels like no risk at all.

I wish fans would stop this dream of ripping off Habs players all the time. It's understandable, but not terribly reasonable from the player's point of view. Any team in hockey would pay PK Subban between 3.5 and 4 million. If we get him for less than that, we can count our lucky stars, but could also legitimately be uneasy about souring the milk.

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Well, see Commandant's point about inflation. $4 mil makes perfect sense.

But would be very nice if all got exact same salary inflation to match salary cap increase, but it dont work exactly like that (in a perfect world maybe), his agent no doubt is argueing that fact, but like someone (you?) said, Term is a bigger deal than slary most likely?

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But would be very nice if all got exact same salary inflation to match salary cap increase, but it dont work exactly like that (in a perfect world maybe), his agent no doubt is argueing that fact, but like someone (you?) said, Term is a bigger deal than slary most likely?

Who knows? Contrary to popular belief, there is a reason Gainey generally preferred not to lock up young players to long-term deals. The player wants to be paid like the player he believes he will become. The organization wants to hedge its bets and pay him closer to the player he actually is right now. In some cases, you can meet midway between the two poles, but depending on the team's existing salary structure and just how big the divergence between player perception and reality is, it's not always realistic. For all we know, PK is saying, "I'm your franchise defenceman and want to be locked up for 10 years - at $6.5 million, 'cause that's what I'll be worth for most of my career.' So PK seems like an exemplary case where you'd be better off paying him what he actually deserves right now (e.g., $4 mil) on a shorter-term deal that will give him time to blossom into the all-star we know he can be. If all goes well, you then lock him up. This is what happened with Price, and I think it's probably what should happen with PK.

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Well, see Commandant's point about inflation. $4 mil makes perfect sense. The difference, to my mind, is that Price at 3.5 felt like a bit of a risk for those who were nervous about Price's uneven development tragectory. 3.5 for PK feels like no risk at all.

I wish fans would stop this dream of ripping off Habs players all the time. It's understandable, but not terribly reasonable from the player's point of view. Any team in hockey would pay PK Subban between 3.5 and 4 million. If we get him for less than that, we can count our lucky stars, but could also legitimately be uneasy about souring the milk.

Couple things...

I don't buy into the concept of Price having an uneven development history...the kid has excelled at every level he's played in, including the NHL, when that contract was being written. I think you paid too much attention to the critics and not enough to the kids history of performance.

Yes, any team would be happy to sign Subban at that price BUT he's an RFA so they don't have his rights and know fully well that the Habs would match. So he won't get an offer sheet at that level...the only way someone puts an offer sheet to him is if they do it at a level that the Habs MAY not match...which would likely mean they'd have to push the $5.5M level. Offer sheets are like the moment in a poker game when you force your opponent to look across the table and decide if they want to go all in.

From the Habs perspective they don't need to go anywhere near that unless someone drives them with an offer sheet...so they offer fair value, for current performance, or maybe slightly more if they want to lock him up to multiple years. That's the way the RFA system is designed.

There are only a few rogue GM's that play the offer sheet game on a regular basis. The rest honour what is effectively the unwritten code of "don't touch mine and I won't touch yours".

So if this is a 1-2 year deal it's going to be under $3.5M. If it's a 3-4 year deal it's probably going to be $3.5 to $4M. If it's 5-6 years then it's $4M+ depending on how/if it eats into his UFA status...definitely harder to predict the level at that length, plus I'm too lazy to look up when he can qualify as a UFA.

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I think i have been way off-base in valuing Subban and i hadnt even looked at comparable players salaries and the Marc Stall/Victor Hedman/Tyler Myers all have fairly significantly higher "1st contract" salaries; so given Max's $4.5 and these other yound d-men.

Subban must be at miimum = to Myers $5.5/per and <Doughty's (sp?) $7?

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I think i have been way off-base in valuing Subban and i hadnt even looked at comparable players salaries and the Marc Stall/Victor Hedman/Tyler Myers all have fairly significantly higher "1st contract" salaries; so given Max's $4.5 and these other yound d-men.

Subban must be at miimum = to Myers $5.5/per and <Doughty's (sp?) $7?

I would agree with Myers - but keep in mind that Myers signed a long-term deal. I think Subban has the potential to be = or > then Doughty, but he is not there yet, so I think $7M would be a stretch. I think signing Subban to a 10 to 14 year deal for $5.5M would be brilliant, because in three years he will probably be looking for $7m.

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I would agree with Myers - but keep in mind that Myers signed a long-term deal. I think Subban has the potential to be = or > then Doughty, but he is not there yet, so I think $7M would be a stretch. I think signing Subban to a 10 to 14 year deal for $5.5M would be brilliant, because in three years he will probably be looking for $7m.

Seem to be too many Subban threads, but i agree and long/short i am not too fussy, just want to see him signed.

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I would agree with Myers - but keep in mind that Myers signed a long-term deal. I think Subban has the potential to be = or > then Doughty, but he is not there yet, so I think $7M would be a stretch. I think signing Subban to a 10 to 14 year deal for $5.5M would be brilliant, because in three years he will probably be looking for $7m.

I admire your faith in PK, but agree with brobin. No to 14 years. One blown knee and you're on the hook for life. There's a bunch of guys locked in at between 4-6 years (Price, Patches, Gorges, Moen) and adding PK to that list, at a reasonable rate, would be great - it's a nice wide window that invites the core to grow into contenders together and win. More than that seems excessive, unless it serves to get the cap hit down to a ridiculously low number - which it probably won't do.

As for Myers, he won the Calder and is arguably a bit overpaid, is he in Doughty's category - that guy played on Team Canada for God's sake - so I'm not sure we need to go quite that high.

Anyway. Much depends on whether or not PK buys into Pacioretty's willingness to trade money for term. He's saying all the right stuff about wanting to stay here his whole career, but talk is cheap. Still, Bergevin has certainly earned the benefit of the doubt given his contractual moves so far.

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I admire your faith in PK, but agree with brobin. No to 14 years. One blown knee and you're on the hook for life. There's a bunch of guys locked in at between 4-6 years (Price, Patches, Gorges, Moen) and adding PK to that list, at a reasonable rate, would be great - it's a nice wide window that invites the core to grow into contenders together and win. More than that seems excessive, unless it serves to get the cap hit down to a ridiculously low number - which it probably won't do.

As for Myers, he won the Calder and is arguably a bit overpaid, is he in Doughty's category - that guy played on Team Canada for God's sake - so I'm not sure we need to go quite that high.

Anyway. Much depends on whether or not PK buys into Pacioretty's willingness to trade money for term. He's saying all the right stuff about wanting to stay here his whole career, but talk is cheap. Still, Bergevin has certainly earned the benefit of the doubt given his contractual moves so far.

Yeah like he said

Tough to find too many comparables to PK, Del Zotto & Carlson are close in stats but of course havent signed either

Big Buff in Winnipeg might not be a terrible comparison, identical stats after 1st two full years, Dustin signed 3 yr/$9MM before his latest 5 yr/$26MM, add some for inflation and a 3 year deal at $3.5-4MM or a Max deal were you sacrifice $$ for term to share the risk/reward would be fair.

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The rumoured offer of $5.5 million was apparently bogus anyway was it not? At least that is what Meehan said.

Personally I think the offer was fine. Pk was anointed the #1 guy only because Gorges and Markov were injured. Now he'll be settled into that #2-3 spot.

Were people up in arms when Detroit paid out $ 3million for Kronwall or what about when Keith and Seabrook were both signed at $3.5?

A $2.75 contract may be slightly lower than what PK will sign for but it is nowhere near a low ball offer.

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The rumoured offer of $5.5 million was apparently bogus anyway was it not? At least that is what Meehan said.

Personally I think the offer was fine. Pk was anointed the #1 guy only because Gorges and Markov were injured. Now he'll be settled into that #2-3 spot.

Were people up in arms when Detroit paid out $ 3million for Kronwall or what about when Keith and Seabrook were both signed at $3.5?

A $2.75 contract may be slightly lower than what PK will sign for but it is nowhere near a low ball offer.

Gorges has zero offense and is no way as skilled as Subban, tough as nails and ballsy for sure but Subban was #1 d-man no matter health of Josh, minus Markov of course.

You are using historical salaries for Kromwall and Seabrook got $3m in 2008 and Keith went from $1m to $5.5.

I also thought $2.75 wasnt that low-ball an offer; but now see i was a bit out to lunch when look at real comparable d-man salaries like -Stall,Hedman,Myers, etc. of which none have Subban's offensive skills.

Now i think; anywhere from $4.5 to 5.5 would be more reasonable and a 5-6 year deal for $30-35m would lock up the most valuable skater on the team for a nice while.

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Gorges has zero offense and is no way as skilled as Subban, tough as nails and ballsy for sure but Subban was #1 d-man no matter health of Josh, minus Markov of course.

You are using historical salaries for Kromwall and Seabrook got $3m in 2008 and Keith went from $1m to $5.5.

I also thought $2.75 wasnt that low-ball an offer; but now see i was a bit out to lunch when look at real comparable d-man salaries like -Stall,Hedman,Myers, etc. of which none have Subban's offensive skills.

Now i think; anywhere from $4.5 to 5.5 would be more reasonable and a 5-6 year deal for $30-35m would lock up the most valuable skater on the team for a nice while.

$5.5 seems high based on performance, but it's nice to see somebody taking the time to make a realistic, well-researched assessment instead of blithely assuming Subban will be perfectly happy to get screwed by Habs' management. Fans in the cap era are so often crazily parsimonious in their evaluations of player 'worth.' Then you get the whole 'he should be happy to be making millions' argument - as though any of us would be thrilled to be paid 30-40% below market value. The fact is, PK is a stud defenceman and we're gonna have to pay him like the fine player he is. $2.5 ain't gonna cut it.

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Tough to get a read on MB's value of PK if you look at his recent comments

I'd struggle to offer him a better deal than Pacs signed, one can only assume either a similar deal has been offered and rejected for Subban wanting more money or MB doesn't have the same confidence in PK and wants a shorter show me deal before committing long term.

No question he's been our best d'man last 2 years but where does he sit in overall NHL rank?

Points 26th

Goals 34th

+/- 47th

TOI/G 18th

Hits 73rd

Blocks 80th

Shots 7th

Missed shots 7th

Giveaways 3rd

Some pros and cons and depends what weighting you give each category but tough to argue he's not top 50

50th highest paid d-man makes $4MM

Different circumstances with UFAs and terms but Subban definitely has a case to ask for $4MM based on this

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$5.5 seems high based on performance, but it's nice to see somebody taking the time to make a realistic, well-researched assessment instead of blithely assuming Subban will be perfectly happy to get screwed by Habs' management. Fans in the cap era are so often crazily parsimonious in their evaluations of player 'worth.' Then you get the whole 'he should be happy to be making millions' argument - as though any of us would be thrilled to be paid 30-40% below market value. The fact is, PK is a stud defenceman and we're gonna have to pay him like the fine player he is. $2.5 ain't gonna cut it.

Why it a $2.75 million contract for a 23 year old being called a screw job?

It's all nice and fine to compare PK to Myers or Staal or Doughty but you can easily compare him to others in the $2.5-$3.5 range which is where the contract was.

7 goals, 29 assists and 36 points with a +9

Zack Bogosian

5 goals, 25 assists in 65 games and signed a 2 year $2.5 million contract.

Alex Edler

Final year in entry level had 10 g, 27 assists and 37 points +11signed at $3.25 per season

Victor Hedman

5 goals, 18 assists in 61 games signed at $ 4million per season

VlaSIC

6 goals, 30 assists for 36 points +15 and signed for $3.1 million

Letang

3 goals, 21 assits for 24 points and signed for $3.5 million

A list of guys who are just as important to their teams, put up similar numbers to Subban, all except for Bogosian are better in their own zone and yet they cannot be used as comparibles because the totals are not in excess of $4 million?

A $2.75 million contract is definitely not low balling. It was the starting point to where PK will sign for between $3.0 and $3.5 which is where he deserves to be signed. Forget the Myers and Staals, think about the majority of players in his category.

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The longer it takes to sign PK, the more silly stories like this will surface. Pk will sign, probably 3-3.5 mil per year, probably for 3-5 years. Gill, Price, they love the guy, and I'm sure there are players on every team who don't get along. If Pouliot played with one-tenth the passion, effort and heart that PK displays on every shift, he would be a consistant 30 goal scorer in this league, so even if he did say something about PK, I wouldn't put a lot of importance to it.

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The longer it takes to sign PK, the more silly stories like this will surface. Pk will sign, probably 3-3.5 mil per year, probably for 3-5 years. Gill, Price, they love the guy, and I'm sure there are players on every team who don't get along. If Pouliot played with one-tenth the passion, effort and heart that PK displays on every shift, he would be a consistant 30 goal scorer in this league, so even if he did say something about PK, I wouldn't put a lot of importance to it.

PK probably got into it with Pouliot over his lack of effort haha

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