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Reflections on Parros-should fighting be banned?


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This, in my opinion, is where the league is bush. The quality of officiating in hockey is laughable. What is a call on one play is overlooked 20 seconds later on another play even if both are directly in view of the officials. A call early in the game isn't the same late in the game. The regular season has one set of rules and the playoffs a completely different set.

Now, I completely understand that hockey is a fast sport and non-stop so therefore perhaps more difficult to call, but there are so many things that are too blatant to just be mistakes. Like seriously, how can the playoffs be called so completely differently from the regular season?

It's hard to fault players for much of what they do when they have no idea from one minute to the next, let alone one game to the next, what the standard is going to be.

THAT is embarrassing.

Great post. I agree with every word. And Habsfan84's post is great too. Well done, guys. :thumbs_up:

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I'm sure getting weary of this "you can't prevent all injuries, so don't try to prevent any of them" logic. People seem hypnotized by this ludicrous reductio ad absurdum. You may as well say that we can't prevent death, so we shouldn't bother with medical science.

As for boxing and MMA, I think that's an open question, actually. Just because people enjoy it doesn't mean we're justified in watching two young men permanently crippling each other (if this is indeed a demonstrable and reliable consequence of those sports. You know the cliché of the "punch drunk" old fighter who can barely remember his own name? That's called brain injury). Duels with pistols were banned years ago. I guess banning them was a bad idea too.

It was. Aaron Burr shot Alexander Hamilton, because Hamilton published a paper claiming he had sex with his own daughter. Duels were less dangerous because of the guns they had, they weren't very fatal or accurate in the 1800's.

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Are you trying to help or not? You are dealing with people who loath fighting and many who would remove any kind of contact at all. When you say things like that you incite "girl's hockey"

I like intense hockey, physical play and rivalries. Many fans don't. While I can appreciate the academic approach of the fans at the Air Canada Center, and the boys at EOTP, I am in this for the entertainment. Breakaways, slap shots, huge hits, bloody fights, rivalry games. Many of the posters here seems to enjoy the European style of hockey where you have idiots like Artyhukin and Jaarko Ruutuu running around with no consequences. The playoffs have the most injuries of any time of year because of the hitting, not the fighting. How do you rationalize that one? But then again most Habs fans enjoy the 4th lines of the Andreas Enqvists, Tommy Pyatts and the Mathieu Darches, and dislike the new look on the fourth line...

What's lost in all this hubris, is if Parros weren't injured, that game would have been lauded as one of the greatest statement games in recent Canadiens history. 5 fights-4 wins. Against the Maple Leafs who ragdolled us all last year. The other teams should be on notice that the Habs aren't going to be bullied anymore, even without Parros.

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I like hard-hitting, intense hockey too. But you can have that without fights - just look at nearly every playoff game of the past 20 years.

As for rats running around unchecked, again, that's an empirical question: what leads to more injuries? Pretty simple equation to my mind.

Other teams will not be "on notice." With Parros and Murray out, our team is actually less physically intimidating than it was at the start of last season, when we at least had Erik Cole in the lineup instead of Briere. There's never been a better time to whale on us than right now.

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Having a 6'6 230 lb defenseman who's broken one nose and doled out one concussion doesn't hurt. The goons don't add to team toughness, unless you're facing a maniac like Colton Orr. We're following the 2011 Bruins model, where we have 4-5 guys who will fight.

I would like to see Rene Bourque get into more fights, he's tougher than you would think.

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Maybe I'm in the minority, but I love hockey with the fights. I love games that have line brawls. As Chicoutimi Cucumber had mentioned, I don't care about non fans liking our sport, or if our sport becomes the #2 watched sport. I like Hockey the way it is with the fighting. I started watching hockey in the eighties when the enforcers were glorified, and that is a style or brand of sport I was drawn to. If a guy has a chance to make buttloads of money because he fits a role, and he DOES have a choice whether or not he wants to take the risks involved. Then so be it. Accidents are unfortunate, but they know the risks and they do it anyway.

So my opinion is leave the sport alone, Bettman has done enough already.

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Having a 6'6 230 lb defenseman who's broken one nose and doled out one concussion doesn't hurt. The goons don't add to team toughness, unless you're facing a maniac like Colton Orr. We're following the 2011 Bruins model, where we have 4-5 guys who will fight.

I would like to see Rene Bourque get into more fights, he's tougher than you would think.

For all the disagreements on here, we're all brothers (and sisters) united in our love of the Habs. And I really wish you were right, Lovett - that we can claim to have the kind of "team toughness" that will neutralize attempts to push us around. But the fact is, we didn't have it last season, before we added Parros and Murray and lost Emelin; so once you take those guys (and Cole) out, we still don't have it - unless Tinordi can single-handedly alter the equation. I just don't see it. Prust and White and Moen are scrappers, but they don't scare anybody.

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I also don't care to listen to non hockey fans thoughts on how to improve or better the game.

Hockey will always be my favourite sport so I also have no vested interest in the sport solidifying itself in the top 4 or big 4 in North America.

Sooner or later Soccer will pass the NHL in terms of revenue in the US anyways.

To be honest I would love nothing more than for hockey to actually fail completely in the south and for most of the teams south of Washington DC to fold.

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I also don't care to listen to non hockey fans thoughts on how to improve or better the game.

Hockey will always be my favourite sport so I also have no vested interest in the sport solidifying itself in the top 4 or big 4 in North America.

Sooner or later Soccer will pass the NHL in terms of revenue in the US anyways.

To be honest I would love nothing more than for hockey to actually fail completely in the south and for most of the teams south of Washington DC to fold.

I wouldn't. I love seeing the Habs on the glass for 175

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I agree with Habsfan84's post about increasing the penalties for fighting, especially about eliminating the goon role with a substantial suspension for any player with more than x amount of fights.

In the end, the league can't really afford to alienate a large portion of its fanbase by banning fighting, even if players have an unlikely change of heart. That's why half measures like the above would be a good place to cut down on the more unnecessary instances of fighting.

Overall, this has been a good debate with interesting points and propositions brought up by both sides, but we still run into nonsensical posts like this from the pro-fighting camp:


Are you trying to help or not? You are dealing with people who loath fighting and many who would remove any kind of contact at all. When you say things like that you incite "girl's hockey"

No one in this thread has remotely expressed a desire to remove all contact from the game; you're arguing a straw man. And most people speaking against fighting here find it exciting, but see it as unnecessary in the game when player safety is taken into account.

All you've demonstrated here are your blind allegiances and your inability to comprehend (or unwillingness to read) others' points of view.

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The NHL has taken measures to protect players during fights with the new minor for removing your helmet, but the guys are still whipping them off.

I don't know that we'll see fighting actually removed from the game before an "important" (i.e. star) player's career or even life is jeopardy as of the result of the fight.

The NHL is more reactionary than it is preventative. Headshots became a problem, so they worked to reduce them. Players becoming injured on icing plays was a problem, and it took them awhile to finally introduce the hybrid model.

Fighting has been in the game for a long time. What happens if it's removed completely? Do cheap shots reign? Do stick-swinging incidents become more frequent (we're looking at you, Kessel)? Will everyone just play nice? Can Patrick Roy keep his job in a fightless NHL?

I think the league could be afraid of the consequences of removing fighting. They might see it as a pandora's box situation that will lead to a scenerio where even more rules and regulations will have to be defined.

It's sad to say, but I think it will take that career or life ending injury at the NHL level to trigger action on the part of both the league and the players to remove fighting from the game.

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Guest Stogey24

Having a 6'6 230 lb defenseman who's broken one nose and doled out one concussion doesn't hurt. The goons don't add to team toughness, unless you're facing a maniac like Colton Orr. We're following the 2011 Bruins model, where we have 4-5 guys who will fight.

I would like to see Rene Bourque get into more fights, he's tougher than you would think.

Ya, Bourque can throw. He was a Chippy player in Calgary. Not sure what to call him now.
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My suggestion to toss into the fight pool is any player who fights without 10 minutes of ice time, the coach and GM are hit with a hefty fine.

10 minutes in that game or 10 minutes of ATOI? If it's a one-game thing, teams could claim the player was hurt and needed treatment as a reason why he didn't play 10 minutes as a way to try to get around the fine.

There have been some very good ideas and great points made in this discussion, well done everyone.

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Can anyone tell me what percentage of injuries in hockey are from fighting? How about what percentage of concussions? Low numbers I an quite sure. As for Cuke's comment on punch drunk fighters, they choose to get in the ring knowing and accepting their fate. There is nothing wrong with that. Freedom of choice. Yes it is a sad result, but most will tell you they don't regret it. Go figure.

Fighting belongs in hockey, 5 plus a game misconduct should be the rule.

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Overall, this has been a good debate with interesting points and propositions brought up by both sides, but we still run into nonsensical posts like this from the pro-fighting camp:


No one in this thread has remotely expressed a desire to remove all contact from the game; you're arguing a straw man. And most people speaking against fighting here find it exciting, but see it as unnecessary in the game when player safety is taken into account.

All you've demonstrated here are your blind allegiances and your inability to comprehend (or unwillingness to read) others' points of view.


Most of what you said here, I don't take offense to, other than you evaluting my post which puts you in a category that you are accusing me of. My comment was directed at Lovett Magnatone when he said "What I want to know, is when are the bench clearing brawls coming back". I do agree that a lot of comments on this board are misread. The fighting issue is currently beening debated on an international scale again. I may have more imformation concerning the direction of this debate that has yet to appear on this thread.Sorry
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Can anyone tell me what percentage of injuries in hockey are from fighting? How about what percentage of concussions? Low numbers I an quite sure. As for Cuke's comment on punch drunk fighters, they choose to get in the ring knowing and accepting their fate. There is nothing wrong with that. Freedom of choice. Yes it is a sad result, but most will tell you they don't regret it. Go figure.

Fighting belongs in hockey, 5 plus a game misconduct should be the rule.

Sure, but you are talking about workers whom barely made it through high school and don't know any different. Did they fight mandatory helmets? Are they fighting mandatory visors? Do drunk drivers think they are driving fine after couple drinks?

There is always a time for big brother to step in for a groups own protection whether they like it or not.

There are many different ways to step up enforcement and many will not turn hockey into a "soft" or boring game.

I think they should start by reducing equipment, in rugby if 1 player runs over another, both suffer and you don't have the head on concussion causing collisions as we see in Hockey/Football. Toss the Kevlar-type crap which is being used both as a weapon as well as protection and players will tend not to run 100kph at other players. Similar to "old-time" hockey which did have more clutching grabbing but most were fine with that at the time and maybe wasn't a bad thing for safety?

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I am fine with limiting fighting, but do not support a total ban. Staged fights that have nothing to do with the game should be gone. I'd also be in favor of delay of game penalties for the constant skirmishes after the whistle in front of the goal that do nothing but prolong the game. These types of fights can be entertaining, but the game won't lose anything by getting rid of them. Fights (and even brawls) that come up through the game itself, i.e. defending a team-mate, punishing a dirty hit, etc. however, are an integral part of the game.

This particular fight should have nothing to do with the conversation about banning fighting from the NHL. It was a freak situation that could have just as easily happened on a legal hip check, a trip, or any number of similar plays. He was wearing a helmet and just happened to land face first. It's unfortunate, but it is hardly evidence to ban fighting.

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Don:

"I think they should start by reducing equipment, in rugby if 1 player runs over another, both suffer and you don't have the head on concussion causing collisions as we see in Hockey/Football. Toss the Kevlar-type crap which is being used both as a weapon as well as protection and players will tend not to run 100kph at other players. Similar to "old-time" hockey which did have more clutching grabbing but most were fine with that at the time and maybe wasn't a bad thing for safety?"

You have hit the nail on the head. The equipment is a very large part of the problem. Hell when i was a kid we couldn't afford shoulder pads. My chest protector was an old catchers bib. Today the players think that they are invincible because of the equipment. Elbow pads? My god if Gordie Howe had those, he would killed 5 maybe 6 people. The shoulder pads are weapons and cause, I would say, a lot of the concussions. The shoulder pads and elbow pads should be dialed back to where they will protect you but not injure the other guy. It has simply gotten out of control. Keep the helmets, and keep them on. Keep the visors. A lot of fans used to complain about the clutching and grabbing, because the refs didn't call it. Well we should still call it, and all the rules fairly and consistently, with no regard to the score or the importance of the game. The rules are the rules and should be all the time. However maybe we could get rid of some of the goofy ones, like the over the glass, the uniform tuck, removing the helmet in a fight, you know, the stupid shit. And get rid of that GD trapazoid. OK that's my say.

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Don, are you really comparing drunk driving, which endangers innocent people with hockey fights? Really? I could see that if hockey fights consisted of players jumping into the stands and killing families watching the game. Otherwise......

Boxing is a better comparison, If we outlaw boxing and MMA there will be a good argument to take fighting out of hockey. As long as it ok for 2 combatants to fight, which by the way is legal in Canada, then it should stay. I will once again say though that it should be a game misconduct. Yes, it is legal to fight in Canada if both parties agree. If you get in a bar fight and get the hell beat out of you but were legally considered a willing party you have no legal recourse.

That is freedom of choice. I am a proud Canadian who would not want that freedom taken away.

Oh, and who barely made it through high school? That line made no sense to me what so ever.

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However maybe we could get rid of some of the goofy ones, like the over the glass, the uniform tuck, removing the helmet in a fight, you know, the stupid shit. And get rid of that GD trapazoid. OK that's my say.

I don't think over the glass is stupid at all. Maybe dial it back and treat it as an icing, but definitely don't let people get a free stoppage out of it.

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It's a fascinating debate. I don't feel strongly either way. If I take my daughter to a game, I really don't want to see players carted off on a stretcher. Which is probably more likely to happen with fighting. She was troubled by what happened to Lars Eller, and that wasn't even a fight. I'll say this though. I haven't read a single compelling argument to keep fighting anywhere, at any time. This idea that it's part of the game is ridiculous. It all but disappears in the playoffs, when the games are the most important. Does anyone actually miss fighting in the Olympics? That's fantastic hockey. The idea that fighting limits stick work, if that were even true, could be rectified easily. Get the refs to call it. Helmets, visors all introduced for players safety. I wouldn't be surprised if fighting is slowly fazed out of the game.

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I don't think over the glass is stupid at all. Maybe dial it back and treat it as an icing, but definitely don't let people get a free stoppage out of it.

it's good to see you got my point.

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It's a fascinating debate. I don't feel strongly either way. If I take my daughter to a game, I really don't want to see players carted off on a stretcher. Which is probably more likely to happen with fighting. She was troubled by what happened to Lars Eller, and that wasn't even a fight. I'll say this though. I haven't read a single compelling argument to keep fighting anywhere, at any time. This idea that it's part of the game is ridiculous. It all but disappears in the playoffs, when the games are the most important. Does anyone actually miss fighting in the Olympics? That's fantastic hockey. The idea that fighting limits stick work, if that were even true, could be rectified easily. Get the refs to call it. Helmets, visors all introduced for players safety. I wouldn't be surprised if fighting is slowly fazed out of the game.

big emphasis on slowly, think back 20 years it was a lot worse so S L O W L Y is the way it is going to go. It will never be banned. you simply can't do it.

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