When does Therrien get fired?

[habs rule]

The Habs of the 70s actually made an effort to learn French and to speak it in public. I know that Patches and PK have supposedly taken French lessons, but it seems fair to say that the admirable example of those great players like Dryden, Robinson, and Gainey has been neglected by subsequent generations. And that is a shame.

Like I say, I just don't understand why it is so unthinkable that an Anglo coach could be asked to attempt this. It's not as though the media ask coaches complicated questions requiring sophisticated French to answer. 'Oui, j'ai decidé de jouée Scrivens au lieu de Condon, parce-se-que ce bande de cons n'est pas capable de gagner une seule maudite match, alors, pourqoui pas?'

And then there is the classic: qui est le deuxième deviner. Which apparently answers all questions.

I am bilingual I don't care if the hole team was Chines, and the coach was Spanish I would not expect to learn English or French and for those people who do GO FORK YOURSELF I want the cup to come back home. I want the players and coach's to work on the game and not language. Therrien has to go his system is no longer working

He has a system? I thought it was just "hey Carey you playing tonight?"

You guys can think what you want about the policy... and I even agree.

But its irrelevant, its Geoff's policy and Geoff's the boss.

Nope the fans are the boss. We have empty seats. He will get the hint. This ain't trawna.

Maybe the French media should hire a bilingual reporter to cover the Canadiens? Then that reporter would have no problem dealing with the coach and translating it for the Francophones who can't speak English,. Why should the team have to have a coach that can speak French? Montreal is a bilingual city in a bilingual nation. Time for the francos to get over it. Hire the best available. Let the press find a reporter that can do their job.

Just seems to me good bilingual reporters are way easier to come by than bilingual coaches.

They are already bilingual. They are just iceholes.

[TheDriveFor25]

Therrien makes it through the season, not the off-season.

Yeah, bad year with injuries. But MB has to realize that Therrien is not the coach that's going to win a Stanley Cup.

[habs rule]

The problem with Carbonneau is that he has coached very little since being fired. And where he did coach, he wasn't very good. He coached a part season in junior and lost in the first round of the playoffs. Then he coached Canada's U-18 entry and led them all the way to the relegation round. Since then, he has shown no interest in coaching anywhere or really learning anything and I'm pretty sure no other NHL team has even interviewed him. The guys that enjoy coaching will take jobs wherever they can to hone their craft/improve. Ones that can't be bothered to do that and are merely willing to sit for more than five years don't warrant consideration in my book, at least for an NHL head coaching position. It's not as if he has a great track record to fall back on either.

One of the other well-known concerns with Carbonneau was his lack of effort in terms of game preparation. When he was fired, it came out that the players were sometimes getting to the rink ahead of him on game days and that it was the assistant coaches that did most of the prep work and game planning. That's one of those things he'd have learned had he bothered to actually go coach somewhere instead of just relaxing and working for RDS.

Hmm no record to fall back on? 124 wins 83 losses .589 winning record. They were 4th 1st and 2nd when he was fired. Ryder was his leading scorer and Cristobal huet was his goalie. Since we all love stats those don't look too bad. With a crap team. Carey was a rookie in 07 and 08. So no goalie, mediocre scoring, Rivet was our big defenceman. I would give him another shot. He has had a lot of time to watch games and listen, and learn.

[dlbalr]

Hmm no record to fall back on? 124 wins 83 losses .589 winning record. They were 4th 1st and 2nd when he was fired. Ryder was his leading scorer and Cristobal huet was his goalie. Since we all love stats those don't look too bad. With a crap team. Carey was a rookie in 07 and 08. So no goalie, mediocre scoring, Rivet was our big defenceman. I would give him another shot. He has had a lot of time to watch games and listen, and learn.

I'm talking about a long-term track record of success. Someone that has had success on multiple teams can sit back and wait for an offer to come in. Someone that has only coached one NHL team and then bombed in junior can't have that track record, regardless of what his record with Montreal was.

If Carbonneau was thought of as a good coach around the league, his name would have come up for at least some of the vacancies over the last five years. I can't think of one he has been linked to.

At the time, I wasn't overly advocating his firing. With some of the stuff that came out afterwards though, it made a lot more sense and I wouldn't be shocked if there was more behind the scenes reasoning as well. I suspect it's those reasons why he hasn't had a sniff anywhere else. And if no one else thinks he's worthy of even an interview, why should Montreal think he's worthy of the job?

If Carbonneau wants to return to coaching, he can go to St. John's. Make him prove his worth as a coach, don't just assume he's better now after working with the likes of Michel Bergeron and Gaston Therrien on Antichambre. (Unless you think there's value in learning what not to do which is what those other two are good for.)

[habs rule]

I'm talking about a long-term track record of success. Someone that has had success on multiple teams can sit back and wait for an offer to come in. Someone that has only coached one NHL team and then bombed in junior can't have that track record, regardless of what his record with Montreal was.

If Carbonneau was thought of as a good coach around the league, his name would have come up for at least some of the vacancies over the last five years. I can't think of one he has been linked to.

At the time, I wasn't overly advocating his firing. With some of the stuff that came out afterwards though, it made a lot more sense and I wouldn't be shocked if there was more behind the scenes reasoning as well. I suspect it's those reasons why he hasn't had a sniff anywhere else. And if no one else thinks he's worthy of even an interview, why should Montreal think he's worthy of the job?

If Carbonneau wants to return to coaching, he can go to St. John's. Make him prove his worth as a coach, don't just assume he's better now after working with the likes of Michel Bergeron and Gaston Therrien on Antichambre. (Unless you think there's value in learning what not to do which is what those other two are good for.)

As far as I know (which ain't much) he was fired cause Koivu wanted him gone. Bob did it and then found out whoops, he wasn't the problem, and fired 1/2 the team including Koivu. To this day Guy still says he was never given a reason. I always thought this was a results oriented business, at least that is what they use to defend Le Genius, based on results Guy did a pretty good job. Could he be better?, of course he could. So could Babcock, Hitchcock, and a dozen others. Hey Hitchcock is rumored to be on his way out in St Louis, if we weren't so interested in the coach's language, would he be a good add? Oh and isn't RDS where we got Le Genius from? Wasn't he the guy criticizing every move that Carbo made? Life is strange isn't it?

[DON]

Also heard his head really swelled, not players coach and was/got too arrogant, especially after getting extension from Bob no doubt.

[dlbalr]

Oh and isn't RDS where we got Le Genius from? Wasn't he the guy criticizing every move that Carbo made? Life is strange isn't it?

The difference with Therrien is that after he was fired from the Habs, he didn't just go work for RDS and then eventually get re-hired. He went to the AHL (something that Carbonneau appears to have shown no willingness to do), coached there, then went back to the NHL for several years. He also wasn't out of coaching for as long as Carbonneau has. That's a huge difference.

If the Habs are hiring a 'retread coach' (and considering I don't want a first-timer, that's the route I hope they take assuming Therrien is let go at some point), I want someone who has been in coaching recently and have shown a willingness to take a step back to learn (that shows humility which is a nice asset to have in a coach). I want a candidate who has experience in multiple professional organizations. Multiple leagues (such as NHL and AHL) would be nice too to have experience working with both veteran and younger players. Carbonneau falls into precisely zero of those categories. He coached one team and has rested on his laurels ever since. The Habs can do worse than bringing him back but they can do much, much better.

[DON]

Was it a Winnipeg assistant coach who you think might be on Bergevin's interview list already and his resume looks OK?

[kickass528]

Who cares if they learn how to speaks French this is about hockey and knot if they took a French class so lets get off this kick about oh he don't know French boo hoo lets get a team that can win a cup and if the French are not happy to bad learn English or Chines, ect

[Guest Stogey24]

Randy Carlye would be a decent option.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree completely with dlbalr's assessment of both Carbo-the-coach and of the profile of coach that this team needs when it does finally replace Therrien. Great stuff, Brian.

I can't recall anyone saying anything good about Carbo when he was fired. What we heard a lot about was 'poor communication skills.' The media and fan base decided to make him a martyr, which is usually what happens when a coach gets canned in Montreal - even Martin enjoyed a bit of this retroactive halo effect - but it was pretty obvious to me that the team had quit on him, as it had on JM (and, ironically, has not done with MT). The '08-'09 team had zero defensive structure. Bob was correct to fire Guy, and that Guy has never gotten a job elsewhere, nor been willing to pay dues as an assistant or in the minors, says a lot both about how he is viewed outside of Montreal and about his own attitude.

I could see hiring Carbo as a temporary short-term replacement for Therrien. But as the permanent new coach? Non merci. Again, wait until summer, see what the options are, and pick the best one. C'est simple.

[Lovett's Magnatones]

You know the team is really circling the drain when Guy Carbonneau and the Anglo/Franco coaching issues are brought up.

Tell me, who was a better Anglo option than Michel Therrien in 2012? I could be wrong, but I can't think of a better English speaking coach that was hired that year.

Edit-Looked up the coaches that were hired in 2012, and here are the choices:

Ron Rolston-Buffalo

John Cooper-TB

Ralph Krueger-EDM

Bob Hartley (Big asterisk here, he was interviewed by MTL and chose Calgary if memory serves me correctly)

Adam Oates-WSH

Not much of a list. Rolston was an interim coach in over his head and didn't get hired after half a year. John Cooper has had success, but he was TBLs farm coach, and it was unlikely that he would coach here. Krueger got fired because Dallas Eakins wowed the EDM chumps during his interview as an assistant...Hartley turned us down, or was hired with a better offer in Calgary, a team that stinks this year after riding some miracle percentages...Oates got fired and he's doing TV at the moment.

So how is it that this Anglo/Franco debate keeps coming up. Once again, exactly who is so much better than the French speaking coaches?

[Chris]

They can't go with any retreads in coaching. Until the management realize they have a MAJOR talent problem, IMO the drafting department is average, the minor league system is average, they will never move forward. Handing out contracts on worthless players not a whole lot will change.

My 2 problems with MT are simply for a team with a motto of "no excuses" he gives them excuses all the time.

The other is his man crush on certain vets who night after night are worthless, and when a younger player makes a mistake, you they are benched for long stretches.

I would have went with Hartley,

[KoRP]

Carbo for coach in Nfld then... lol

Thanks for the info Dlbalr, never knew all that, I agree he hasn't shown much desire to coach beneath the NHL, he should try the Ice Caps gig maybe? Probably anyone would be a good replacement for Lefebvre imo.

[dlbalr]

Was it a Winnipeg assistant coach who you think might be on Bergevin's interview list already and his resume looks OK?

Yeah, Pascal Vincent. 11 years as a QMJHL head coach and an assistant in Winnipeg since 2011. He lacks the experience as a head coach in the pros that I'd prefer but yeah, I could see him realistically being on the radar.

Who cares if they learn how to speaks French this is about hockey and knot if they took a French class so lets get off this kick about oh he don't know French boo hoo lets get a team that can win a cup and if the French are not happy to bad learn English or Chines, ect

I think most on here would agree with you. Not all, but most. While the majority of the fan base speaks French, a majority (albeit smaller) also speak English once you factor in the fan base outside of Quebec. There is a reasonable and rational case to be made that the requirement is not necessary both in terms of the fans and hockey-related reasons. That said, it's simply not going to change under this ownership. Geoff Molson has made that clear and considering he owns the team and signs the paycheques, it's his call to make, not ours.

They can't go with any retreads in coaching. Until the management realize they have a MAJOR talent problem, IMO the drafting department is average, the minor league system is average, they will never move forward. Handing out contracts on worthless players not a whole lot will change.

If they don't go with a retread coach, that means they have a rookie head coach in a frenetic market with a massive amount of pressure on his shoulders given the current and continued predicted decline of this team. That's a big risk and considering the other concerns you list, it would seem likely to be disastrous unless you figure there's a big change coming in terms of player personnel.

[Chris]

I meant more retread on old habs coaches or coaches with the same style as MT.

[dlbalr]

Tell me, who was a better Anglo option than Michel Therrien in 2012? I could be wrong, but I can't think of a better English speaking coach that was hired that year.

It's not just who was hired that shows who else was available. Paul Maurice was available. Andy Murray was someone I was advocating for at the time, a veteran who had some experience with the team considering he was a consultant to Gainey in 2010-11. Just a couple of examples of NHL head coaches with experience but did not meet the language requirement.

We did a long-winded survey back in 2012 for who should be the coach. That's probably the best overview of who was realistically available back then: http://www.habsworld.net/2012/05/the-fans-choice-the-next-coach-of-the-habs-should-be/

I meant more retread on old habs coaches or coaches with the same style as MT.

That makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[habs rule]

I agree completely with dlbalr's assessment of both Carbo-the-coach and of the profile of coach that this team needs when it does finally replace Therrien. Great stuff, Brian.

I can't recall anyone saying anything good about Carbo when he was fired. What we heard a lot about was 'poor communication skills.' The media and fan base decided to make him a martyr, which is usually what happens when a coach gets canned in Montreal - even Martin enjoyed a bit of this retroactive halo effect - but it was pretty obvious to me that the team had quit on him, as it had on JM (and, ironically, has not done with MT). The '08-'09 team had zero defensive structure. Bob was correct to fire Guy, and that Guy has never gotten a job elsewhere, nor been willing to pay dues as an assistant or in the minors, says a lot both about how he is viewed outside of Montreal and about his own attitude.

I could see hiring Carbo as a temporary short-term replacement for Therrien. But as the permanent new coach? Non merci. Again, wait until summer, see what the options are, and pick the best one. C'est simple.

Well I for one was against the firing and stated quite clearly that Bob was making a mistake. He was a winning coach. With a crap team.

The difference with Therrien is that after he was fired from the Habs, he didn't just go work for RDS and then eventually get re-hired. He went to the AHL (something that Carbonneau appears to have shown no willingness to do), coached there, then went back to the NHL for several years. He also wasn't out of coaching for as long as Carbonneau has. That's a huge difference.

If the Habs are hiring a 'retread coach' (and considering I don't want a first-timer, that's the route I hope they take assuming Therrien is let go at some point), I want someone who has been in coaching recently and have shown a willingness to take a step back to learn (that shows humility which is a nice asset to have in a coach). I want a candidate who has experience in multiple professional organizations. Multiple leagues (such as NHL and AHL) would be nice too to have experience working with both veteran and younger players. Carbonneau falls into precisely zero of those categories. He coached one team and has rested on his laurels ever since. The Habs can do worse than bringing him back but they can do much, much better.

Such as?

[dlbalr]

Such as?

Which side are you asking about? Who would be better or who I think would be worse?

[Commandant]

The biggest "team quitting on a coach" I've ever seen was the 2009 carbonneau team.

That team was not just losing games at the end, but down four or 5 goals in the first period night in and night out. I remember a west coast trip where he took the team bowling, and I know we have a history of struggling out west, but the games in Edmonton and Calgary were complete disasters and games where they weren't competitive in. Even the wins (such as one over colorado) was Montreal massively outplayed and a great game from Halak. Kovalev was sent home by the team at one point. The Kostitsyns were getting in trouble outside the rink. Overall it was a complete disaster. All of it was crazy.

Anyone who says Carbo didn't deserve to be fired and looks just at the record forgets how that season went. We were in first place in december and then completely fell apart and were barely in the playoffs when he got fired. The difference from that year and this one? This year at least the team is competitive in the games they've lost in the collapse. That year, it was blowout after blowout.

[habs rule]

Which side are you asking about? Who would be better or who I think would be worse?

better.

[habs rule]

The biggest "team quitting on a coach" I've ever seen was the 2009 carbonneau team.

That team was not just losing games at the end, but down four or 5 goals in the first period night in and night out. I remember a west coast trip where he took the team bowling, and I know we have a history of struggling out west, but the games in Edmonton and Calgary were complete disasters and games where they weren't competitive in. Even the wins (such as one over colorado) was Montreal massively outplayed and a great game from Halak. Kovalev was sent home by the team at one point. The Kostitsyns were getting in trouble outside the rink. Overall it was a complete disaster. All of it was crazy.

Anyone who says Carbo didn't deserve to be fired and looks just at the record forgets how that season went. We were in first place in december and then completely fell apart and were barely in the playoffs when he got fired. The difference from that year and this one? This year at least the team is competitive in the games they've lost in the collapse. That year, it was blowout after blowout.

Your memory is a little faulty, they were in second place when he was fired. They were coming off a win when he was fired. Big Bob took Kovalev for a walk. The kosty's etc cannot be blamed on Carbo. He was the Coach not the psychiatrist.

[Commandant]

Yes they won in Dallas the night before he was fired.

It was the first win after a long losing slump, that including multiple blowout losses, including the two i referenced in Edmonton and Calgary. Prior to the win in Dallas they had won just 7 of their last 21 games. These losses included 6 losses by 3 or more goals in 21 games. The two games prior to the Dallas game... a 5-1 stinker in Buffalo, and a 2-0 loss to a brutal Atlanta team where the Habs were comically inept.

Basically in the last 21 games they had almost as many losses in blowout fashion as they had wins. And the wins they did get included games like the colorado game where halak stole it.

They were in 2nd in the division, but 8th in the conference, barely holding a playoff spot

Carbo was spending less time at the rink than his players and his assistant coaches. His solution to get out of the slump was to take the team bowling.

It was a fiasco.

After that fiasco his only coaching experience was taking a Team Canada U18 squad and barely avoiding relegation (hockey canada never invited him to coach another team)... and coaching his own junior team to a disastrous second half and first round playoff loss.

[Commandant]

Also the real story on the Bergevin meeting with Carbo for three hours

https://twitter.com/LucGelinasRDS/status/695715980530618370

Both were guests at a gala event for Evenko that lasted over 3 hours. There were over 100 people present.

[dlbalr]

better.

I'd much rather have Crawford, for starters. I'm not as high on Boucher as some are but I respect the fact he has stayed in coaching and he also has some background coaching a few of the current players. As much as I'd rather have a coach with NHL head coaching experience, I'd still rather have Vincent out of Winnipeg.

Then there's the other current French coaches - Vigneault, Hartley, and Julien. If any of them were to be made available, I would put all of them as better options (and I'm not even a big Hartley fan).

And that's not even looking at non-French speaking candidates of which there would be several others on my wish list ahead of Carbonneau. But, since that's not going to happen, it's not really worth even getting into that group. Even still, that's at least 3-6 that I'd have way ahead (and if and when the time comes, I'd take a closer look at the AHL options and some of the other NHL assistants - odds being odds, I'd find some I'd think would be better options).