habs rule Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 The idea that it's 'ridiculous' flies in the face of pretty regular drumbeats from media commentators calling Price the league MVP. Clearly, there is a large constituency of opinion-makers out there who recognize what #31 brings. (Note that it's also a backhanded way of diminishing the Habs as a team - the ol' 'they're not really a good team, they just have a great goalie' argument). I am not sure what you mean C/C Lovetts said that Price had no chance I said his comment was ridiculous. May be I have read your post wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I am not sure what you mean C/C Lovetts said that Price had no chance I said his comment was ridiculous. May be I have read your post wrong? Sorry...I was addressing Lovett's claim but garbled the reference point. My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I don't think he does with how they've played the last five weeks. The Hart Trophy is heavily skewed towards scorers and guys who help their team squeek into the playoffs, like Corey Perry a few years back. They don't give the Hart to a goalie who played lights out for three months. My apologies, but that's the way I sees it. The drumbeats have been quiet for about three weeks. Most of the media talk has Ovechkin level with Price. Subban has a better shot at the Norris right now. The comment on the original post about "no chance" was a reference to Tim Thomas not winning the Hart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I don't think he does with how they've played the last five weeks. The Hart Trophy is heavily skewed towards scorers and guys who help their team squeek into the playoffs, like Corey Perry a few years back. They don't give the Hart to a goalie who played lights out for three months. My apologies, but that's the way I sees it. The drumbeats have been quiet for about three weeks. Most of the media talk has Ovechkin level with Price. Subban has a better shot at the Norris right now. The comment on the original post about "no chance" was a reference to Tim Thomas not winning the Hart. Thomas was on a stanley cup winning team. Granted he was a big part of it but they still went on to a cup. 011 also had forwards with way better years than the 80 plus point seasons that OV and the top scorers are working on this season. Price is a on a bubble team...........and keeps them battling for first all year. MVP stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Yeah, gotta agree, Price is still the front runner in my books too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 three Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Thomas was on a stanley cup winning team. Granted he was a big part of it but they still went on to a cup. 011 also had forwards with way better years than the 80 plus point seasons that OV and the top scorers are working on this season. Price is a on a bubble team...........and keeps them battling for first all year. MVP stuff. Bubble team? 1st place going into the playoffs lockout year. 100 points last year. 103 pts with three games to go this year. Easily in the top five teams by any pundit or fan estimation. These guys were a bubble team. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000452010.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Bubble team? 1st place going into the playoffs lockout year. 100 points last year. 103 pts with three games to go this year. Easily in the top five teams by any pundit or fan estimation. These guys were a bubble team. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000452010.html It's the same old story. Habs have a bona-fide great goalie and no offensive superstars. This makes them a target for the argument that they are 'actually' a bubble team without that great goalie. The same kind of logic has been used for the past 20 years to dismiss the 1993 team as 'not a real Cup team.' Nowadays we have advanced stats to be deployed as further evidence of the team's fundamental weakness. There's no question that Price makes a huge difference. What's interesting is the extent to which the team's entire style of play is predicated on Price. E.g., they happily give up shots from low-per centage areas and know that Price will expertly manage the rebound (which he does better than anyone else in hockey). Apart from 'system,' the team is also unusually comfortable playing with very slim leads, because, psychologically, they know Price will shut the door. For this reason, I'm not sure you can just do a thought experiment of 'subtracting Price' and drawing inferences about how we'd do. Without #31, the team's structure and mentality would be quite different, and we don't know what it'd look like, really. Such rationalizations aside, though, it IS true that our forward unit is not particularly good. There's one genuinely elite player there. One. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Correct, 1 borderline quality 'All-Star' forward is all they got; so darn good on rest of team/Coaching staff to get them to be a 100+point team coasting into playoffs once again. Teamwork! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Correct, 1 borderline quality 'All-Star' forward is all they got; so darn good on rest of team/Coaching staff to get them to be a 100+point team coasting into playoffs once again. Teamwork! Goalie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 At the end of the day, I don't care, as long as the team wins. It's been discussed on this board before, but it's always struck me as bizarre to somehow discount the goalie when evaluating a team - as if he isn't part of the team. Nobody does that with Washington, going 'oh, they wouldn't be that great, if it weren't for Ovechkin...' Or with Boston three years ago: 'oh, it doesn't really count, because without Chara, they're a middle-of-the-pack squad...' Yet when your goalie is your best player, that proves you suck, somehow. But all of this is beside the point, which is Price as MVP. I think Price will get serious consideration, but yes, the March Swoon will let the voters off the 'hook' and ensure they won't have to choose a goalie, which is considered dodgy practice for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 It's the same old story. Habs have a bona-fide great goalie and no offensive superstars. This makes them a target for the argument that they are 'actually' a bubble team without that great goalie. The same kind of logic has been used for the past 20 years to dismiss the 1993 team as 'not a real Cup team.' Nowadays we have advanced stats to be deployed as further evidence of the team's fundamental weakness. There's no question that Price makes a huge difference. What's interesting is the extent to which the team's entire style of play is predicated on Price. E.g., they happily give up shots from low-per centage areas and know that Price will expertly manage the rebound (which he does better than anyone else in hockey). Apart from 'system,' the team is also unusually comfortable playing with very slim leads, because, psychologically, they know Price will shut the door. For this reason, I'm not sure you can just do a thought experiment of 'subtracting Price' and drawing inferences about how we'd do. Without #31, the team's structure and mentality would be quite different, and we don't know what it'd look like, really. Such rationalizations aside, though, it IS true that our forward unit is not particularly good. There's one genuinely elite player there. One. At the end of the day, I don't care, as long as the team wins. It's been discussed on this board before, but it's always struck me as bizarre to somehow discount the goalie when evaluating a team - as if he isn't part of the team. Nobody does that with Washington, going 'oh, they wouldn't be that great, if it weren't for Ovechkin...' Or with Boston three years ago: 'oh, it doesn't really count, because without Chara, they're a middle-of-the-pack squad...' Yet when your goalie is your best player, that proves you suck, somehow. But all of this is beside the point, which is Price as MVP. I think Price will get serious consideration, but yes, the March Swoon will let the voters off the 'hook' and ensure they won't have to choose a goalie, which is considered dodgy practice for some reason. Ahhh, it's so refreshing to read the logical posts of the Cucumber, how I yearn for them during these battlefield times on this forum. Now THIS is the way to convey an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 At the end of the day, I don't care, as long as the team wins. It's been discussed on this board before, but it's always struck me as bizarre to somehow discount the goalie when evaluating a team - as if he isn't part of the team. Nobody does that with Washington, going 'oh, they wouldn't be that great, if it weren't for Ovechkin...' Or with Boston three years ago: 'oh, it doesn't really count, because without Chara, they're a middle-of-the-pack squad...' Yet when your goalie is your best player, that proves you suck, somehow. But all of this is beside the point, which is Price as MVP. I think Price will get serious consideration, but yes, the March Swoon will let the voters off the 'hook' and ensure they won't have to choose a goalie, which is considered dodgy practice for some reason. Cant paint teams with star goalies all with the same brush. Nobody said the 2000 devils would be a bubble team without Marty. Nobody said the 89 Flames would be a bubble team without Vernon. Nobody said the 94 Rangers would be a bubble team without Richter. Nobody said the 013 Hawks would be a bubble team without Crawford and nobody said the 011 Bruins would be a bubble team with out Thomas. But the 99 sabres and the 015 habs are similar where they are nowhere near a top team without hart trophy type goaltending season from their goaltender. I hear what you are saying cc, and many times it is the case. This team and season is not one of them. The only part of the habs game opposing teams fear is the goaltending. They dont score much, they dont hit, they dont have a killer powerplay, they dont smother you to death with checking, .... stellar goaltending. Thats it. If they dont get it...they are easy to beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 It's the same old story. Habs have a bona-fide great goalie and no offensive superstars. This makes them a target for the argument that they are 'actually' a bubble team without that great goalie. The same kind of logic has been used for the past 20 years to dismiss the 1993 team as 'not a real Cup team.' Nowadays we have advanced stats to be deployed as further evidence of the team's fundamental weakness. There's no question that Price makes a huge difference. What's interesting is the extent to which the team's entire style of play is predicated on Price. E.g., they happily give up shots from low-per centage areas and know that Price will expertly manage the rebound (which he does better than anyone else in hockey). Apart from 'system,' the team is also unusually comfortable playing with very slim leads, because, psychologically, they know Price will shut the door. For this reason, I'm not sure you can just do a thought experiment of 'subtracting Price' and drawing inferences about how we'd do. Without #31, the team's structure and mentality would be quite different, and we don't know what it'd look like, really. Such rationalizations aside, though, it IS true that our forward unit is not particularly good. There's one genuinely elite player there. One. offensively this team is no wear near as good as the 93' team. Right now have one guy who is a true threat offensively (MaxPac), in 93, we had Damphousse, Muller, Bellows and Leclair who had stepped up in the playoffs. They also had a Lebeau who was 30 goal scorer in the regular season and Depietro and Dionne who chipped in offensivley in the playoffs. There's potential for Galchenyuk, Gallaghar and Eller to step up, but in the playoffs, but we have enough 4th liners to put together 3 lines. Defensively, we have top end talent (Markov & Subban) than the 93 team, but as a whole that team was much better defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Cant paint teams with star goalies all with the same brush. Nobody said the 2000 devils would be a bubble team without Marty. Nobody said the 89 Flames would be a bubble team without Vernon. Nobody said the 94 Rangers would be a bubble team without Richter. Nobody said the 013 Hawks would be a bubble team without Crawford and nobody said the 011 Bruins would be a bubble team with out Thomas. But the 99 sabres and the 015 habs are similar where they are nowhere near a top team without hart trophy type goaltending season from their goaltender. I hear what you are saying cc, and many times it is the case. This team and season is not one of them. The only part of the habs game opposing teams fear is the goaltending. They dont score much, they dont hit, they dont have a killer powerplay, they dont smother you to death with checking, .... stellar goaltending. Thats it. If they dont get it...they are easy to beat. Now that all the things that we don't do have been mentioned, we can mention the things we do well. Let's not forget to mention our speed. I think it was Barry Trotz who said you need to have a game plan to beat those quick teams and a game plan to beat those tough teams. There are other fast teams in the league, but there are those "tougher teams" you mention, who are more often than not slow teams as well who fear our speed. As for those other quick teams who may not "fear" our speed, then maybe you can mention Price as a secondary factor that should inflict fear into those teams who match our speed. Let's not to forget to mention our transition game. Teams fear what we can do to them in the neutral zone. It was mentioned on here a few weeks ago and I agree that we definitely have more odd man rushes than your average team. Not to mention we don't allow as many against. There was even a period where Pacioretty was guaranteed a breakaway a game. I think he'll probably still continue to get a clear break every other game. If I were other teams, I'd fear Pacioretty, Like Habs29 said, then there's also Markov and Subban, and Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Eller and I'd even add Plekanec and (yes) Weise who all have the potential to break out in the playoffs and I'm starting to think of even more positive thoughts and reasons that other teams should be weary about us. Then after all that, there's the backbone of it all. Our goalie, Carey Price! I happen to think we're not too shabby defensively as well but I'll agree it's definitely hard to tell how much of it is Carey and how much of it is the defense. It definitely is a combination of the two though needless to say. Even if we don't have the best defensively sound core though, the very fact we have Carey plays to the strength of our defense, which is their offensive potential. Subban, Markov, Petry is finally settling in. Gilbert can bring it offensively when he plays to his potential and Beaulieu has the potential there as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 offensively this team is no wear near as good as the 93' team. Right now have one guy who is a true threat offensively (MaxPac), in 93, we had Damphousse, Muller, Bellows and Leclair who had stepped up in the playoffs. They also had a Lebeau who was 30 goal scorer in the regular season and Depietro and Dionne who chipped in offensivley in the playoffs. There's potential for Galchenyuk, Gallaghar and Eller to step up, but in the playoffs, but we have enough 4th liners to put together 3 lines. Defensively, we have top end talent (Markov & Subban) than the 93 team, but as a whole that team was much better defensively. well put Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Now that all the things that we don't do have been mentioned, we can mention the things we do well. Let's not forget to mention our speed. There are other fast teams in the league, but there are those "tougher teams" you mention, who are more often than not slow teams as well who fear our speed. As for those other quick teams who may not "fear" our speed, then maybe you can mention Price as a secondary factor that should inflict fear into those teams who match our speed. Let's not to forget to mention our transition game. Teams fear what we can do to them in the neutral zone. It was mentioned on here a few weeks ago and I suppose. Although the teams we have to beat next month....rangers, tbay, islanders, caps....... match our speed in spades. Bruins not so. Wings maybe. Sens are dominating the caps right now..........sens are every but as fast as the habs or more so. So yes the habs are fast, but who isnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I suppose. Although the teams we have to beat next month....rangers, tbay, islanders, caps....... match our speed in spades. Bruins not so. Wings maybe. Sens are dominating the caps right now..........sens are every but as fast as the habs or more so. So yes the habs are fast, but who isnt. Apologies, I posted a little bit early there before finishing my entire thought. The only team's speed who I really fear is the Rangers. Probably because of what they did last year. Tbay and Islanders are fast I guess but I don't really think of Tavares or Okposo as being too quick. Same with Tampa's best players. I fear Stamkos' shot more than his speed. Not denying they're quick teams though. We've dealt with the Caps before and I agree Ovi's speed is not something you can really contain. Only Halak/Price can help us there. Main point is that Carey's not the only thing teams think about when they face us. If it is, they'll lose the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Apologies, I posted a little bit early there before finishing my entire thought. The only team's speed who I really fear is the Rangers. Probably because of what they did last year. Tbay and Islanders are fast I guess but I don't really think of Tavares or Okposo as being too quick. Same with Tampa's best players. I fear Stamkos' shot more than his speed. Not denying they're quick teams though. We've dealt with the Caps before and I agree Ovi's speed is not something you can really contain. Only Halak/Price can help us there. Main point is that Carey's not the only thing teams think about when they face us. If it is, they'll lose the game. No its not all they "think' about...... buts its all they "fear" Thats to say that goaltending (Price) is the habs bread and butter. However i agree that we can skate with anybody speed wise other than the Rangers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 No its not all they "think' about...... buts its all they "fear" Thats to say that goaltending (Price) is the habs bread and butter. However i agree that we can skate with anybody speed wise other than the Rangers. I'm completely fine with other teams fearing our goalie. Wouldn't have it any other way.I honestly think teams literally fear Pacioretty and to a lesser extent Subban though. Rick Nash, Alex Ovechkin and now Max Pacioretty. Nash might be the least feared out of the three in the present even if it's for an irrational reason. Nash definitely has the best supporting cast out of the three (although Backstrom is amazing) and so Ovechkin and Pacioretty stand out more on their respective teams, especially to their opponents. Carey Price for the Hart but without Pacioretty we're just as dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I'm completely fine with other teams fearing our goalie. Wouldn't have it any other way. I honestly think teams literally fear Pacioretty and to a lesser extent Subban though. Rick Nash, Alex Ovechkin and now Max Pacioretty. Nash might be the least feared out of the three in the present even if it's for an irrational reason. Nash definitely has the best supporting cast out of the three (although Backstrom is amazing) and so Ovechkin and Pacioretty stand out more on their respective teams, especially to their opponents. Carey Price for the Hart but without Pacioretty we're just as dead. You have me there. Pax is a major threat. Stand corrected on all that others teams fear is goaltending. Habs are lowest scoring team of all play off teams and then some. Max is the man without the supporting cast Nash and OV have. Imagine him playing with a center that could score and go to the net with jam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I disagree and think Price is much more important than Pacioretty, he plays 60minutes a game and is involved in many many more plays than simply is the 39goal-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs30/31 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I disagree and think Price is much more important than Pacioretty, he plays 60minutes a game and is involved in many many more plays than simply is the 39goal-man. Oh definitely price is the best Hab. The most valuable hab. Best player this team has had on the squad since Roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 I disagree and think Price is much more important than Pacioretty, he plays 60minutes a game and is involved in many many more plays than simply is the 39goal-man. Price has been ridiculous many games this season but think about the OT 1-0 loss against Tampa and that type of situation would happen a lot more often without Pacioretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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