GDT Apr. 11, Jets vs Habs, 7 PM

[tomh009]

10 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I don't think saddling young D with bad goaltending is good for their confidence or development.

Every goalie has bad games from time to time. Montembeault has them more often than Allen, but less often than Primeau. Is there a specific frequency threshold at which the young D-men's confidence will collapse?

[alfredoh2009]

17 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I don't think saddling young D with bad goaltending is good for their confidence or development.

 

I hate seeing the Habs loosing, but the consensus is to expect the Habs to tank next year to draft high.

 

I am just stating what the majority on this board, at least the "loudest" are proposing as the "Hugh-Gort plan": tank two consecutive years, draft high, trade smartly and rebuild through development

 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

Every goalie has bad games from time to time. Montembeault has them more often than Allen, but less often than Primeau. Is there a specific frequency threshold at which the young D-men's confidence will collapse?

 

Hey, I'm no expert. But it seems to me, you're a young d-man, struggling to establish yourself, making mistakes, and every time you make a mistake it's in the back of your net - that's really not great for your confidence or your development, any more than getting  benched every time you commit a gaffe is.

[tomh009]

If it's every time, yes, it's a problem. But Montembeault and Primeau (or even Red Light Racicot!) have good games, too, the question is just the percentages.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Hey, I'm no expert. But it seems to me, you're a young d-man, struggling to establish yourself, making mistakes, and every time you make a mistake it's in the back of your net - that's really not great for your confidence or your development, any more than getting  benched every time you commit a gaffe is.

 

I think we can only speculate on what the Habs goaltending will look like next year.  Heck, maybe Price and Allen both return healthy and we have the best goaltending duo in the league next year. 

[alfredoh2009]

48 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I think we can only speculate on what the Habs goaltending will look like next year.  Heck, maybe Price and Allen both return healthy and we have the best goaltending duo in the league next year. 

that would shot down the Hugh-Gort tank job !!!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

If it's every time, yes, it's a problem. But Montembeault and Primeau (or even Red Light Racicot!) have good games, too, the question is just the percentages.

 

If you don't believe you're going to get the key saves, it corrodes team confidence - especially bad for young players on D.

 

Red Light Racicot is not the guy I would want in nets for a young d-corps.

 

If we really believe that Monty is a legitimate #1A G, a guy who can eat 30-40 games (which is what Price needs) then sure, let Allen go.

 

If we think he is a #3 or a #2A guy - which is what he's been up to this point in his career - then getting rid of Allen is a bad developmental move. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

16 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

that would shot down the Hugh-Gort tank job !!!

 

I don't think HuGo is looking specifically to "tank" next year. I think they are just taking a longer term approach. It's hard to predict one year to the next where your team will be given all the unpredictable events (ie. injuries)  that can happen.  Who would have thought the Habs would be fighting for the 1st draft  pick this year?

 

I think it's safe to say they won't be a serious cup contender next year but if they have healthy goaltending (I don't expect Price to be traded, tough contract to move) and some of the kids develop a little quicker than expected, the Habs could be farther from the bottom than a lot of people expect.  

 

 

[dlbalr]

4 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Montembeault is the perfect backup for "the tank" next season. Price will probably get injured at some point and another waiver-claim goalie will backup Montembeault for a dozen games.

 

Isn't that what is "the best" for the team?

 

If you want a tank job, you still want to be competitive.  Otherwise, the first half of this season will be what happens next year, they're not going to go all out even with St. Louis behind the bench. 

 

Look at Montreal's defence corps right now, they're getting shredded every night.  It might be worse next year with Petry gone and a lesser defenceman or a rookie in his place.  Putting an unproven goalie as a regular (I agree with the idea that the backup will be playing 30+ games) isn't going to make the Canadiens competitive all that often.  And when that happens, players start checking out which is never good, especially for prospect development.

 

Commandant referenced the 64 goalies in the league on the last page of the thread which is a good example.  In Montembeault, they have a goalie that's probably in the 70s (there are several teams where he would be their fourth-stringer) while Allen is in the low 20s/high 30s.  If you're aiming for another finish at the bottom next year, go get goalie #50 as Price's backup, a veteran that should be able to keep it close most nights to avoid players checking out but not steal a bunch of games either. 

[alfredoh2009]

1 minute ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I don't think HuGo is looking specifically to "tank" next year. I think they are just taking a longer term approach. It's hard to predict one year to the next [...]

 But honestly, how do you know that?

the consensus of the interpretation of Hugh-Gort’s moves is that they are rebuilding by selling off assets this year and tanking for a couple of years to draft high

[alfredoh2009]

4 minutes ago, dlbalr said:

 

If you want a tank job, you still want to be competitive.  Otherwise, the first half of this season will be what happens next year, they're not going to go all out even with St. Louis behind the bench. 

 

Look at Montreal's defence corps right now, they're getting shredded every night.  It might be worse next year with Petry gone and a lesser defenceman or a rookie in his place.  Putting an unproven goalie as a regular (I agree with the idea that the backup will be playing 30+ games) isn't going to make the Canadiens competitive all that often.  And when that happens, players start checking out which is never good, especially for prospect development.

 

Commandant referenced the 64 goalies in the league on the last page of the thread which is a good example.  In Montembeault, they have a goalie that's probably in the 70s (there are several teams where he would be their fourth-stringer) while Allen is in the low 20s/high 30s.  If you're aiming for another finish at the bottom next year, go get goalie #50 as Price's backup, a veteran that should be able to keep it close most nights to avoid players checking out but not steal a bunch of games either. 

sorry friend, but we cannot suck and blow at the same time: are the Habs rebuilding or  not

and if they are rebuilding why can’t Martin St-Louis coach through that?

if he is the coach, he better take the bad with the good

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

Just now, alfredoh2009 said:

 But honestly, how do you know that?
 

 

Because I speak on the phone with them a lot and that's what they tell me. 

 

Seriously, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else on this board. I might be right, I might be wrong. 

[alfredoh2009]

3 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Because I speak on the phone with them a lot and that's what they tell me. 

 

Seriously, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else on this board. I might be right, I might be wrong. 

 

exactly, and my point.

 

as far as I understand, Hugh-Gort have stated that they have embarked on a long-term transformation of hockey operations with the goal of becoming a repeat cup contender once the transformation is done.

 

in short, the tank is most probably on for 2022-2023

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

6 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

sorry friend, but we cannot suck and blow at the same time: are the Habs rebuilding or  not

 

 

In my mind there is a difference between "rebuilding" and "tanking".   Tanking  suggests you are making  moves with the sole intent of losing.  Rebuilding to me is taking the approach that you are not going to be good enough to win in the next couple years so lets move out some veteran assets and get some younger blood/draft who will hopefully mature and develop together  and make us a contender. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 minute ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

exactly, and my point.

 

as far as I understand, Hugh-Gort have stated that they have embarked on a long-term transformation of hockey operations with the goal of becoming a repeat cup contender once the transformation is done.

 

in short, the tank is most probably on for 2022-2023

 

Yes they are taking a longer term approach, that is no secret.  You think tanking and rebuilding are the same thing. I don't think they are. 

[alfredoh2009]

"I guess we'll have more details this summer"...

[alfredoh2009]

2 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Yes they are taking a longer term approach, that is no secret.  You think tanking and rebuilding are the same thing. I don't think they are. 

I believe that @The Chicoutimi Cucumber has expressed the most clearly why being a bubble team will never work; I also think others have criticized  the "make the playoffs and anything can happen" plan.

 

Having a semi-decent goalie and improving the D next year doesn't make sense if the Habs are to draft and develop elite players to for the new core.

 

Picking outside of the top 5 will not accomplish what all of us want: a cup contending team.

 

We have seen three quick rebuilds under MB, or rebuilds on-the-fly.

 

If Hugh-Gort do not tank next year, their hiring is nothing but PR.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

34 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I believe that @The Chicoutimi Cucumber has expressed the most clearly why being a bubble team will never work; I also think others have criticized  the "make the playoffs and anything can happen" plan.

 

Having a semi-decent goalie and improving the D next year doesn't make sense if the Habs are to draft and develop elite players to for the new core.

 

Picking outside of the top 5 will not accomplish what all of us want: a cup contending team.

 

We have seen three quick rebuilds under MB, or rebuilds on-the-fly.

 

If Hugh-Gort do not tank next year, their hiring is nothing but PR.

 

I don't think anyone wants a bubble team. We want a team that can be a serious contender for a number of years. You are not getting what I am saying so I will move on. 

[alfredoh2009]

2 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I don't think anyone wants a bubble team. We want a team that can be a serious contender for a number of years. You are not getting what I am saying so I will move on. 

let’s move on

 

I agree tanking for the sake of tanking is not the same as rebuilding. The rebuild Hugh-Gort has articulated goes through taken acquisition and retention. Drafting high-end elite talent implies loosing often for at least another season

[dlbalr]

1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said:

sorry friend, but we cannot suck and blow at the same time: are the Habs rebuilding or  not

and if they are rebuilding why can’t Martin St-Louis coach through that?

if he is the coach, he better take the bad with the good

 

A better veteran goalie allows the Habs to lose by a lesser margin.  But they still lose.  If they lose badly repeatedly, there's a good chance they'll quit on St. Louis (or any coach).  Hence the emphasis on not getting blown out regularly.  With Montembeault playing behind a weaker defence next year, they're getting blown out regularly.  That's not desirable even if you're wanting to see them lose every night.  Lose competitively if you're wanting to do that.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

[tomh009]

1 hour ago, dlbalr said:

A better veteran goalie allows the Habs to lose by a lesser margin.  But they still lose.  If they lose badly repeatedly, there's a good chance they'll quit on St. Louis (or any coach).  Hence the emphasis on not getting blown out regularly.

Looking at our disaster of a year...

 

With Ducharme:

• 8 wins
• 12 losses by 1 goal
• 3 losses by 2 goals
• 22 losses by 3 or more goals

That's an (at least somewhat) lopsided loss almost every second game, which is indeed pretty regular. Although some of those are with one or two empty-netters.

 

With St-Louis:

• 12 wins
• 7 losses by 1 goal
• 3 losses by 2 goals
• 6 losses by 3 or more goals

That's a lopsided loss every 4.5 games.

 

Or by another measure ...

 

With Ducharme:

• 8 games with 0-2 goals allowed
• 18 games with 3-4 goals
• 19 games with 5+ goals

With St-Louis:

• 9 games with 0-2 goals allowed
• 12 games with 3-4 goals
• 7 games with 5+ goals

That's 5+ goals allowed every 4 games.

[DON]

In the prediction thread, i had them 23rd, and half a dozen had same or worse (top ten pick). So it wasnt like everyone thought this team would do well at all in the fall.

But, 32nd-30th? even Dalhab, the most pessimistic or smartest of all,  didnt have them this bad i suppose.

[alfredoh2009]

47 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Looking at our disaster of a year...

 

With Ducharme:

• 8 wins
• 12 losses by 1 goal
• 3 losses by 2 goals
• 22 losses by 3 or more goals

That's an (at least somewhat) lopsided loss almost every second game, which is indeed pretty regular. Although some of those are with one or two empty-netters.

 

With St-Louis:

• 12 wins
• 7 losses by 1 goal
• 3 losses by 2 goals
• 6 losses by 3 or more goals

That's a lopsided loss every 4.5 games.

 

Or by another measure ...

 

With Ducharme:

• 8 games with 0-2 goals allowed
• 18 games with 3-4 goals
• 19 games with 5+ goals

With St-Louis:

• 9 games with 0-2 goals allowed
• 12 games with 3-4 goals
• 7 games with 5+ goals

That's 5+ goals allowed every 4 games.

 

goaltending was disastrous to start the year and was one of the main ingredients that led to the team quitting on DD.

 

goaltending has been much better under St-Louis, where he is closer to having a .500 record than not.

 

Do we really want a .500 team next year when sub .400 would be better for the rebuild ?!

 

[hab29RETIRED]

1 hour ago, DON said:

In the prediction thread, i had them 23rd, and half a dozen had same or worse (top ten pick). So it wasnt like everyone thought this team would do well at all in the fall.

But, 32nd-30th? even Dalhab, the most pessimistic or smartest of all,  didnt have them this bad i suppose.

I thought there was no way in hell l, we would make the playoffs, and thought we’d finish in that 22-25 range. Without Covid we wouldn’t hav been in the last two playoffs either.

 

Despite how bad of a team I think we were (and still are - probably looking better than we should), there is no reason other than horrible coaching to been historically bad. We were worse than a lot of old expansion teams. Did we have injuries - sure. Did some player who quit - absolutely (coaching was also the reason for that). Was goaltending bad - unquestionably. But even with those factors, it was coaching that killed us. The deployment of the D, line combos, player usage was pretty fxcked up to most other than DD.