hab29RETIRED Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, alfredoh2009 said: goaltending was disastrous to start the year and was one of the main ingredients that led to the team quitting on DD. goaltending has been much better under St-Louis, where he is closer to having a .500 record than not. Do we really want a .500 team next year when sub .400 would be better for the rebuild ?! We want a team that competes - win or lose. A good coach can at least get his team to lose respectively, rather than becoming the Washington Generals for almost every team they played against during my DD’s entire. We have lost games now by three goals, but the team is still competing. The team didn’t quit on their goalie - they quit on the coach that either didn’t have a system, or wouldn’t adjust his style, given the players he had available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 I don’t care how well this coach does. inwant the Habs to become and contender and for that they need to pick high at least two years in a row Then flush the vets and dejected players and bring up the Calder winning team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 Well, why one more tank year only? What is the mystical guarantee that tanking next year will give us that one player that we need to mutate into long-term contenders? Really, by this logic, our odds of building a powerhouse would increase with every year we tank. So we should be looking to tank for 3, 4, 5, 6 years - not just next season. (I also find it amazing how quickly folks forget that we had two #3 overall, tank-equivalent picks in the past decade, and what those picks amounted to). So I say, no tank. Ice the best team you can without ruining your cap flexibility. Continue to look to add young pieces and increase medium-term cap flexibility if you can. Build an ace drafting/development system. Build up the young players actually here so that they know how to win when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHT120 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Well, why one more tank year only? What is the mystical guarantee that tanking next year will give us that one player that we need to mutate into long-term contenders? Really, by this logic, our odds of building a powerhouse would increase with every year we tank. So we should be looking to tank for 3, 4, 5, 6 years - not just next season ... Reductio ad Absurdum 1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: ... So I say, no tank. Ice the best team you can without ruining your cap flexibility. Continue to look to add young pieces and increase medium-term cap flexibility if you can. Build an ace drafting/development system. Build up the young players actually here so that they know how to win when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 I just get tired of this "tank" debate because the word "tank" is used ad nauseam. Here is the definition from Wikipedia. "Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams." I agree with this definition. Did the Habs tank this year? NO They had a ton of injuries, some blame coaching etc. which resulted in a bad team and bad performance. Should the Habs "tank" next year. NO They should continue with a rebuild, trade veterans and get rid of bad contracts when they can while taking into account that their real window of opportunity to be a serious contender is likely in 3-5 years. Now taking this approach may lead to being a bottom quartile team next year but it may not. I don't consider what HuGo has done as tanking, they are simply taking a longer term view and rebuilding which is badly needed in my opinion. Tanking would be deciding to rest Caulfield the last week of the year because he has a hang nail. Maybe an extreme example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 10 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Tanking would be deciding to rest Caulfield the last week of the year because he has a hang nail. Maybe an extreme example. They've pretty much done that with Price all season. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 Great post, Habs Fan in Edmonton. And the immediate debate before us is whether using Montembeault as Price's backup, and getting rid of Allen, constitutes a "tank" strategy on your excellent definition of the concept. I'm inclined to think it does. And since, like you, I oppose tanking, I think we should probably keep Allen, therefore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Great post, Habs Fan in Edmonton. And the immediate debate before us is whether using Montembeault as Price's backup, and getting rid of Allen, constitutes a "tank" strategy on your excellent definition of the concept. I'm inclined to think it does. And since, like you, I oppose tanking, I think we should probably keep Allen, therefore. Thanks. I think the decision to get rid of Allen depends on 1) Price's health and 2) the return you can get for Allen. I have been impressed with Allen this year, a great pro, seems like a great presence in the locker room and valuable guy to be a mentor for the younger guys. If Price is not 100% then there is no way you get rid of Allen. If Price is healthy then you have to consider Allen will be a free agent at the end of next year, see what the return is and make a decision from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 We'll get roughly equivalent value for Allen if we sell him at the deadline or in the summer, so we might as well keep him till the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: I just get tired of this "tank" debate because the word "tank" is used ad nauseam. Here is the definition from Wikipedia. "Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams." I agree with this definition. Did the Habs tank this year? NO They had a ton of injuries, some blame coaching etc. which resulted in a bad team and bad performance. Should the Habs "tank" next year. NO They should continue with a rebuild, trade veterans and get rid of bad contracts when they can while taking into account that their real window of opportunity to be a serious contender is likely in 3-5 years. Now taking this approach may lead to being a bottom quartile team next year but it may not. I don't consider what HuGo has done as tanking, they are simply taking a longer term view and rebuilding which is badly needed in my opinion. Tanking would be deciding to rest Caulfield the last week of the year because he has a hang nail. Maybe an extreme example. based on this definition and your feedback, I will rephrase my question: 1) are the Habs going to field/ice a team that limits their points potential to the bottom quartile: to pick high draft picks? 2) or, are the Habs going to start the rebuild by adding some veterans that keep the team at a competitive level so that the current core team can learn to win as they develop? question 2 does not state this, but it implies that the winning percentage may be higher by having a more capable team than with the other approach. === My understanding is that the actions and discourse of Hugh-Gort point to the first strategy and for that reason playing Montembeault has a higher probability of happening that not. The current core and prospect pool does not have sufficient elite players to turn this team into a cup contender in 3-5 years: an influx of elite talent is needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 5 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Well, why one more tank year only? What is the mystical guarantee that tanking next year will give us that one player that we need to mutate into long-term contenders? Really, by this logic, our odds of building a powerhouse would increase with every year we tank. So we should be looking to tank for 3, 4, 5, 6 years - not just next season. (I also find it amazing how quickly folks forget that we had two #3 overall, tank-equivalent picks in the past decade, and what those picks amounted to). So I say, no tank. Ice the best team you can without ruining your cap flexibility. Continue to look to add young pieces and increase medium-term cap flexibility if you can. Build an ace drafting/development system. Build up the young players actually here so that they know how to win when the time comes. and to your points, after rebasing the arguments on the Wikipedia definition of tanking: How long shall the Habs aim to finish in the lower quartile? -> Until their core and talent pool has sufficient elite players to "mutate" (your word) / "transform" (Hugh-Gort's word) into a cup contender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 15 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said: We want a team that competes - win or lose. A good coach can at least get his team to lose respectively, rather than becoming the Washington Generals for almost every team they played against during my DD’s entire. We have lost games now by three goals, but the team is still competing. The team didn’t quit on their goalie - they quit on the coach that either didn’t have a system, or wouldn’t adjust his style, given the players he had available. competing for a playoff place? Or for the cup? that is the question as far as I've read and heard, the current objective is to transform in the long term into a cup contender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 The fact is that we're going to be mediocre, at best, integrating 2-4 rookie defensemen over the next couple of years. I'd rather be rewarded for these seasons with studs in the draft than not. There's a higher likelihood of that reward with higher picks. Sure, we whiffed on our last two top-3 picks, but that was the old regime. Of course there are no guarantees, but we help our chances by drafting high. St-Louis seems like a good developmental coach who could keep team spirits up through this rebuilding phase - helping the youngsters to improve and handle the adversity in a tough market. Let's face it, we're going to stink for a bit, might as well come out the other side with a true contending core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 44 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: The current core and prospect pool does not have sufficient elite players to turn this team into a cup contender in 3-5 years: an influx of elite talent is needed Sure, elite players are great to have but you can still be a cup contender for a number of years without truly elite players. Look at the St Blues in 2019, won a cup and are still contenders. In 2019, their leading scorers were Ryan O'Reilly at 77 points and Tarasenko at 68 points. Do you think Suzuki and Caulfield are not capable of this type of production? They are still a cup contender in 2022 because they have a lot of really good players and are well coached. Sure getting a Mathews or McDavid would be great but neither one of them have won a cup yet, not even a sniff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 49 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said: competing for a playoff place? Or for the cup? that is the question as far as I've read and heard, the current objective is to transform in the long term into a cup contender Sure. Long term objective is to win a cup. But you don’t want a team whose players don’t try and May as well stayed home or conceded the game before it was played. You do that and you end up with a franchise like Buffalo. We aren’t competing for a playoff spot even, simply because we aren’t good enough. You do want to players to still try and put in the best effort they can. That clearly wasn’t happening under DD. We lost Taffoli, Lekhonan, and Chiarot, and even when we lose the team still looks like an NHL team with some pride, not the sorry bunch that was historically awful. Management needs to be mindful of building for the future - because given the horrible contracts and stage of our prospects, there is no quick fix. What we need is an end to approaching each year with bandaid solutions when we need major surgery or a transplant. You want to surround young players with mentors like Perry was last year, rather than saddle us with more garbage players on long term deals like Hoffman and Armia, or reward guys like Gallagher for past performance, or overpay for 3rd liners like Dvorak. Next year, we should bring in affordable veteran dmen who who can help the kids develop. We want them to show up and play hard, and try to win, even when they probably won’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 24 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Sure, elite players are great to have but you can still be a cup contender for a number of years without truly elite players. Look at the St Blues in 2019, won a cup and are still contenders. In 2019, their leading scorers were Ryan O'Reilly at 77 points and Tarasenko at 68 points. Do you think Suzuki and Caulfield are not capable of this type of production? They are still a cup contender in 2022 because they have a lot of really good players and are well coached. Sure getting a Mathews or McDavid would be great but neither one of them have won a cup yet, not even a sniff. St. Louis also had a deep and skilled defence, with composed of high draft picks. Their dman could live the puck. Their forwards also had a lot of skill. We have three good forwards, and no clear first line dman. We don’t have a Peitrangelo. We’ve got their 6th dman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredoh2009 Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 I'll drop this topic on this thread. It seems like we are agreeing to not agreeing without saying we disagree We can pick up this topic when "We'll have more details this summer" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habs Fan in Edmonton Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said: St. Louis also had a deep and skilled defence, with composed of high draft picks. Their dman could live the puck. Their forwards also had a lot of skill. We have three good forwards, and no clear first line dman. We don’t have a Peitrangelo. We’ve got their 6th dman. That's true, they do have a skilled defence. Nobody is going to dispute the Blues are better than the Habs. The only way to get there is to develop your own young defenseman as nobody is giving them away. The Habs have assembled a pretty good group of defence prospects (Guhle, Harris, Barron, Mailloux etc), I am excited to see where this group will be in 3 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyrealist Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 6 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said: Great post, Habs Fan in Edmonton. And the immediate debate before us is whether using Montembeault as Price's backup, and getting rid of Allen, constitutes a "tank" strategy on your excellent definition of the concept. I'm inclined to think it does. And since, like you, I oppose tanking, I think we should probably keep Allen, therefore. Agreed, and also well said sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyrealist Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 5 hours ago, Neech said: We'll get roughly equivalent value for Allen if we sell him at the deadline or in the summer, so we might as well keep him till the deadline. I like the idea of holding til deadline as insurance for Price. And also b/c goalies are hard to come by and good chance a competitor will have goalie injury and/or performance issues and overpay closer to deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyrealist Posted April 13, 2022 Share Posted April 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said: Sure, elite players are great to have but you can still be a cup contender for a number of years without truly elite players. Look at the St Blues in 2019, won a cup and are still contenders. In 2019, their leading scorers were Ryan O'Reilly at 77 points and Tarasenko at 68 points. Do you think Suzuki and Caulfield are not capable of this type of production? They are still a cup contender in 2022 because they have a lot of really good players and are well coached. Sure getting a Mathews or McDavid would be great but neither one of them have won a cup yet, not even a sniff. This is a strong point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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