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dlbalr

Subban traded to Nashville

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Again the appeal to authority doesn't mean much because Canada has always, since 1972, assembled the best coaches and best managers at the time to pick their team

Didn't stop a majority of the group of the best managers/coaches at the time from thinking Rob Zamuner was a better player than Ron Francis in 1998

Chris Kunitz two years ago.

Ranford over Roy

Draper over Crosby

and a number of other questionable calls.

The idea that just because they are well respected hockey people means they are automatically right is not one I can support.

The best evaluator of defencemen in the last 30 years (David Poile) decided P.K. was his guy.

Just because he may be best evaluator of d-men for the last 30 years, dosent make him automatically right.

And Hockey Canada has won a few more championships lately than that Puke Yellow team in Tennessee.

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what does 10 years from now have to do with team canada today....

If weber is still on team canada in 10 years... we won this trade by a land slide ;)

The real point is that Team Canada today has absolutely nothing to do with whether the Habs won the trade. And two exhibition games by Team Canada have less than nothing to do with it.

All that said, hey, no one ever argued that Weber is not a stud d-man. But I sure am looking forward to hearing about how the Habs 'won' the trade every time Weber has a good shift. (Conversely, every time Subban scores or makes a great play, or every time Weber screws up, we will hear the reverse. Gonna be a looooooong season, in this respect).

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1. I'm aware that Weber can eventually be dealt to a team trying to meet the cap floor. I'm also aware that this scenario is floated far, far more often than it's actually realized. How often did we hear the same said about Gomez? So I'm not banking on it happening.

2. Many players do play out their contracts if they 'feel they can still play.' Look at Messier.

3. Subban is marginally overpaid - maybe by about a mil. Big shmeal. At least he's not on the books until age 41.

The basic problem is that this contract makes the Habs entirely dependent upon the good will of other GMs and Weber himself. That's very unwise. Like I say, if another team had traded for it, we'd be chortling at the inept cap management.

HEARTS, I'm glad that two exhibitions games have settled the question of a trade that will ramify for the next 10 years. That's some outstanding analysis.

im talking about weber and team canada NOT the trade...

team Canada didnt get this wrong... they didnt in 2014 when weber led the D in TOI and the whole team in points... and these last 2 exhibition games are all we have to go by so far and if you actually watched the 2 games... it clearly wasn't a pre season nhl game

So ya my analysis thus far of team canada's inclusion of weber as the #1 is merited... now lets see how pietrangelo and doughty and burns stack up.... cause they were taken over subban!

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im talking about weber and team canada NOT the trade...

team Canada didnt get this wrong... they didnt in 2014 when weber led the D in TOI and the whole team in points... and these last 2 exhibition games are all we have to go by so far and if you actually watched the 2 games... it clearly wasn't a pre season nhl game

So ya my analysis thus far of team canada's inclusion of weber as the #1 is merited... now lets see how pietrangelo and doughty and burns stack up.... cause they were taken over subban!

OK, got it. I guess these posts should have been in the 'World Cup' thread.

I haven't yet watched this joke of a tournament, but all reports indicate that Weber has been a behemoth out there, so you're likely correct. It never was a question of Weber OR Subban on Team Canada, of course.

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Just because he may be best evaluator of d-men for the last 30 years, dosent make him automatically right.

And Hockey Canada has won a few more championships lately than that Puke Yellow team in Tennessee.

No one is saying he's automatically right.

I'm merely saying that there are people who disagree with Team Canada's brass, and that Team canada isn't automatically right.

im talking about weber and team canada NOT the trade...

team Canada didnt get this wrong... they didnt in 2014 when weber led the D in TOI and the whole team in points... and these last 2 exhibition games are all we have to go by so far and if you actually watched the 2 games... it clearly wasn't a pre season nhl game

So ya my analysis thus far of team canada's inclusion of weber as the #1 is merited... now lets see how pietrangelo and doughty and burns stack up.... cause they were taken over subban!

Weber has played well

That's fine... I've always maintained Weber is a very good defenceman. No one has said that Weber is a bad player.

Would Subban be better, we don't know.

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I suspect that if Subban hadn't had those two mortifying blow-outs in the last two weeks of his time in a Habs jersey, the myth of him as a free-wheeling loon would be harder to sustain.

No, don't think so. Most have seen enough of his games to make up their own mind on that. Not sure how you else you would put it?

But he is on the scoresheet often and entertains, so all is forgiven (by most). Like a Brett Hull, who could really score but his backchecking effort is a standing joke, but who cares he could really score.

Every player does have weaknesses...even your besets buddy P.K. isn't perfect.

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yes but seems this thread today has team canada fever now ;)

you must of missed that...

i dont favour this trade... im a PK fan bno doubt. but im a Habs fan first... and a players fan second... so im moving on from PK as he's moved on from us... and I am going to hope for the best of weber and not speculate on how this trade stacks up years from now...

FYI those 2 exhibition games looked like playoff games... guys getting run... super chippy, big hits dropped gloves etc..

CAN USA is creating quite the rivalry

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No one is saying he's automatically right.

I'm merely saying that there are people who disagree with Team Canada's brass, and that Team canada isn't automatically right.

Weber has played well

That's fine... I've always maintained Weber is a very good defenceman. No one has said that Weber is a bad player.

Would Subban be better, we don't know.

agreed... but like i said i dont think team canada took weber over subban....

subban was left off the team in favour of pietrangelo and doughty and burns.

weber's style of play is like no other elite defenceman on team Canada... i think pronger was the last elite canadian defenceman of this type.

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yes but seems this thread today has team canada fever now ;)

you must of missed that...

i dont favour this trade... im a PK fan bno doubt. but im a Habs fan first... and a players fan second... so im moving on from PK as he's moved on from us... and I am going to hope for the best of weber and not speculate on how this trade stacks up years from now...

FYI those 2 exhibition games looked like playoff games... guys getting run... super chippy, big hits dropped gloves etc..

CAN USA is creating quite the rivalry

Yah, thus far I'm immune to the "fever" you're discussing. Maybe that'll change, but I increasingly doubt it. Anyway, good post.

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Through 61 pages of this thread the contracts have been brought up many times. To bring you up to speed:

- Weber's contract is heavily front loaded, meaning that it has value besides the cap hit

- Weber will not likely be playing out the entire contract. Do you really think he is going to hobble around the ice at 41 when he already earned most of his actual dollars for the contract?

- If Weber retires early, the Preds are on the hook, not the Habs.

- Subban is the highest paid defenseman in the league and will be for the next 3 years till Doughty and Karlsson are due. Is Subban the best defenseman in the league? If you answered no to that question then he is playing below his salary. The idea is to have players playing at or above their salary in a salary cap system.

OR doughty and Karlsson are playing WELL below their salary. I agree Subban is not the best in the league though on any given night he can be.

Why on earth do you care how much money poor fella Geoff Molson is saving at the end of Weber's contract? Would it please you if we became a budget team like the coyotes because that holds value for the owners? As the owner of 0% of the habs, I give approximately 0 poops.

Nashville being on the hook after he retires is a great point though, and a huge factor. The trade wouldn't have gone through without that stipulation I'm sure. Still, why is it difficult to think and elite defenseman like Weber won't be capable of playing until 40 at bottom pairing levels? Leaving us with a 7.8 cap hit (the important part for non-owners) when he's probably worth 3.5.

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Still, why is it difficult to think and elite defenseman like Weber won't be capable of playing until 40 at bottom pairing levels? Leaving us with a 7.8 cap hit (the important part for non-owners) when he's probably worth 3.5.

It's not a matter of him being capable of playing (or not) at the end of the contract. The question is if Weber will be willing to play for a $1M salary in each of the final three years when that amount won't be much higher by the league minimum at that time. (The minimum will be $750k in 2021-22; Weber's $1M salary starts in 2023-24 so that gap could be a bit smaller by then.) It's like some of the other now-illegal back diving deals like Weber's is, there are years in there that at the time the deal was signed that neither side expects the player to actually play through.

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It's not a matter of him being capable of playing (or not) at the end of the contract. The question is if Weber will be willing to play for a $1M salary in each of the final three years when that amount won't be much higher by the league minimum at that time. (The minimum will be $750k in 2021-22; Weber's $1M salary starts in 2023-24 so that gap could be a bit smaller by then.) It's like some of the other now-illegal back diving deals like Weber's is, there are years in there that at the time the deal was signed that neither side expects the player to actually play through.

If this is the case, good for the cap.

I could see front-loading largely being a financial thing though. I had a bunch written elaborating, but it felt too tangential.

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It's not a matter of him being capable of playing (or not) at the end of the contract. The question is if Weber will be willing to play for a $1M salary in each of the final three years when that amount won't be much higher by the league minimum at that time. (The minimum will be $750k in 2021-22; Weber's $1M salary starts in 2023-24 so that gap could be a bit smaller by then.) It's like some of the other now-illegal back diving deals like Weber's is, there are years in there that at the time the deal was signed that neither side expects the player to actually play through.

You also look at big, physical defenceman and most don't make it to 40, and those who try to (Adam Foote) are greatly diminished in their final years. All those hits and blocked shots are wear and tear on the body.

Chara is the exception. Most other physical dmen that age fall apart before the age of 40. Its the smooth skating types like Markov, Lidstrom, Brian Campbell, Rafalski, etc... who age more gracefully. Yes they too slow down, but they are still very good. Guys like Foote, Hatcher, Regher, etc... not so much.

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PK Subban is not coming into his prime... hes already in it! hes not gonna get faster, hes not gonna get quicker, he wont get stronger! all he can do is get better between the ears! he is extremely charismatic yes... but the most exciting in all of hockey? hes not better offensively then karlsonn... in fact the ott/montreal series of 2015 showed first hand how much better karlsonn actually is then him and they play the same game.

shea weber in the last 2 games against a stacked USA team showed zero signs of decline... What declineis everyone talking about? at 31? its a joke that we are even suggesting that a 31 year old is in decline... let alone arguably the #1D of the best assembled team in the world... who was playing against the best...

I saw a Weber that was great on defense and the powerplay, but when he had the puck in his own zone, he often stalled looking for a forward or hit the reset button. I can see this becoming a big problem in Montreal because the Habs' centers aren't very good at carrying the puck and there isn't a good LHD puckmover besides Beaulieu that can potentially play big minutes. If N8 doesn't take that spot or Therrien puts Markov in it, the top pairing is going to be eaten alive on the forecheck from teams like TB or even Boston.

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I saw a Weber that was great on defense and the powerplay, but when he had the puck in his own zone, he often stalled looking for a forward or hit the reset button. I can see this becoming a big problem in Montreal because the Habs' centers aren't very good at carrying the puck and there isn't a good LHD puckmover besides Beaulieu that can potentially play big minutes. If N8 doesn't take that spot or Therrien puts Markov in it, the top pairing is going to be eaten alive on the forecheck from teams like TB or even Boston.

That's definitely one of the things that worries me. The game seems to be moving away from bruisers (and yes, I recognize that Weber is more than just a bruiser) towards puck-moving, speed, and mobility. I'm especially concerned about teams like Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh hemming the Habs in with their laser-like speed. Conversely, getting back Price's sublime puck-handling skills may help to compensate for the team's apparent deficiencies in this area. We'll see.

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To be fair so did Doughty a couple times who had a couple terrible giveaways that Holtby had to bail him out.

They both looked rusty as hell but still are Canada's best D men by a large margin.

Does Weber move the puck like Keith or Doughty? No but if you guys watched the first game their were several occasions were Weber skated the puck out and made a couple crisp passes to enter the offensive zone and even created a couple scoring chances.

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That's definitely one of the things that worries me. The game seems to be moving away from bruisers (and yes, I recognize that Weber is more than just a bruiser) towards puck-moving, speed, and mobility. I'm especially concerned about teams like Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh hemming the Habs in with their laser-like speed. Conversely, getting back Price's sublime puck-handling skills may help to compensate for the team's apparent deficiencies in this area. We'll see.

Hopefully. I miss Subban already. Shea Weber is no fun. Stand around, boring hockey. MT must have pitched a tent watching him camp out in front of the net.

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To be fair so did Doughty a couple times who had a couple terrible giveaways that Holtby had to bail him out.

They both looked rusty as hell but still are Canada's best D men by a large margin.

Does Weber move the puck like Keith or Doughty? No but if you guys watched the first game their were several occasions were Weber skated the puck out and made a couple crisp passes to enter the offensive zone and even created a couple scoring chances.

Wait Doughty made bad giveaways?

I thought Subban was the only elite defenceman who makes giveaways.

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Like I say...if another team had traded a 27-year old stud D man coming into his prime years (who also happens to be the single most charismatic and exciting player in all of hockey) for a 31-year-old stud, albeit one who has shown some signs of declining, on a 10-year contract (!!!), with relatively modest cap savings, we'd be laughing at them.

Either that, or - taking the most optimistic view of the relative merits and demerits of the players in question - we would be concluding that that team was going 'all in' on a Cup within the next three or four years, and damn the long-term.

I am surprised so many fans on this site are downright happy to have handcuffed the organization to a massive and ridiculous contract for the next decade, on the grounds that Weber is a marginal improvement on PK Subban. Even granting that (debatable) premise, it's strange that people who are generally very agitated about bad contracts (DD, Emelin) have suddenly forgotten all about basic contractual logic when it comes to this trade. And please don't tell me that the $1 mil difference between PK and Weber is some franchise-saving distinction. It ain't.

Actually the point a lot of folks, yourself included, miss, is PK gets another contract at 33. That contract could easily end up being a 6 or 7 year deal at a cap hit more than his current one. We at least already know the kind of money Weber will be making until the end of his career. PK will be making a lot more so in actual fact. PK might end up having the uglier more expensive contract going into his 40's.

And 1.2 million will seem better than it looks now when Price is asking for 12 million a season in a couple years.

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Wait Doughty made bad giveaways?

I thought Subban was the only elite defenceman who makes giveaways.

Doughty has had his fair share of critics too in his time.

Beaulieu definitely needs to step up but I wouldn't cry if Markov did find himself with Weber for 5-10 games this season. Other than that, it's a fair concern as to whether or not Beaulieu can step up to the plate. Because he has to.

I've been predicting that Beaulieu will indeed have a breakout year this season since the trade. Mostly based on him being paired with Weber as well as what I saw from him last season. If he doesn't step up? As I said, legitimate concern.

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Wait Doughty made bad giveaways?

I thought Subban was the only elite defenceman who makes giveaways.

I never said Subban was the only one who has bad giveaways.

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Like I say...if another team had traded a 27-year old stud D man coming into his prime years (who also happens to be the single most charismatic and exciting player in all of hockey) for a 31-year-old stud, albeit one who has shown some signs of declining, on a 10-year contract (!!!), with relatively modest cap savings, we'd be laughing at them.

Either that, or - taking the most optimistic view of the relative merits and demerits of the players in question - we would be concluding that that team was going 'all in' on a Cup within the next three or four years, and damn the long-term.

I am surprised so many fans on this site are downright happy to have handcuffed the organization to a massive and ridiculous contract for the next decade, on the grounds that Weber is a marginal improvement on PK Subban. Even granting that (debatable) premise, it's strange that people who are generally very agitated about bad contracts (DD, Emelin) have suddenly forgotten all about basic contractual logic when it comes to this trade. And please don't tell me that the $1 mil difference between PK and Weber is some franchise-saving distinction. It ain't.

Yawn (but the obvious man-crush is kinda cute :wub: ).

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Anyone else a bit worried about Weber's aggression level? On the one hand, I love it...we haven't had a big nasty D-man in far too long. HOWEVER, I fear that Weber won't get a pass from the officials on some of the nasty stuff that he got in Nashville when he's wearing a Habs uniform...referees don't seem to like us very much.

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Anyone else a bit worried about Weber's aggression level? On the one hand, I love it...we haven't had a big nasty D-man in far too long. HOWEVER, I fear that Weber won't get a pass from the officials on some of the nasty stuff that he got in Nashville when he's wearing a Habs uniform...referees don't seem to like us very much.

I suspect that you have it backwards. The refs tend to abide by this asinine NHL 'code.' According to the Code, the ultimate act of scumbaggery is, say, diving so as to draw penalties...or maybe being a rookie mouthing off to your betters. On the other hand, smashing people face-first into stanchions so as to come within a half-inch of killing or paralyzing them, or pointlessly grabbing a guy's face and slamming it into the glass, is making a 'hockey play.' I mean, maybe you have to penalize it if it looks really bad, but deep down, you know the guy is really a Good Guy deserving of infinite forgiveness. From this point of view, then, guys like Weber (or Chara) are Good Guys Who Play The Right Way and therefore are unlikely to be penalized to the extent that their actual behaviour would warrant given the rule-book. So I'm not worried at all. Weber is axiomatically one of the NHL's favoured Good Guys. In the topsy-turvy world of NHL justice, that designation means that - again, axiomatically - he warrants the benefit of the doubt.

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Oh ya, forgot to add that Subban is NHL champion diver (was thinking it was only giveaways he led NHL in). Will he repeat and hold on to that title also again this year in Nashville?

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