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Commandant

Jonathan Drouin is a Hab. Mikhail Sergachev is not. 2018 conditional picks exchanged.

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I've always believed that a defenceman is worth more than a forward, in principle, and that building from the blueline out is the most reliable way to win. In today's NHL, I also believe that mobility and puck-moving from the back end are the way to go. So, build from the blueline out, with puck-moving defencemen. The Nashville model.

 

All that being said, I think that any team would absolutely love to have both Jonathan Drouin and Alex Galchenyuk at FW. These are two young, dynamic, exciting, very high-ceiling offensive forwards. They have the potential to become core players who will give opposition defences fits for years to come. So I support the trade, as long as acquiring Drouin is not a prelude to trading Galy - as though the Habs only have room for one dynamic young forward at a time.

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14 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I've always believed that a defenceman is worth more than a forward, in principle, and that building from the blueline out is the most reliable way to win. In today's NHL, I also believe that mobility and puck-moving from the back end are the way to go. So, build from the blueline out, with puck-moving defencemen. The Nashville model.

 

All that being said, I think that any team would absolutely love to have both Jonathan Drouin and Alex Galchenyuk at FW. These are two young, dynamic, exciting, very high-ceiling offensive forwards. They have the potential to become core players who will give opposition defences fits for years to come. So I support the trade, as long as acquiring Drouin is not a prelude to trading Galy - as though the Habs only have room for one dynamic young forward at a time.

Pacioretty- ? - Radulov

Drouin-Galcenyuk- Galagher 

Lehkonen-Maccarron-Hudon

 

 

That's actually looks pretty good. 

 

Hanzal or Anisimov would fit nicely in there 

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16 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I've always believed that a defenceman is worth more than a forward, in principle, and that building from the blueline out is the most reliable way to win. In today's NHL, I also believe that mobility and puck-moving from the back end are the way to go. So, build from the blueline out, with puck-moving defencemen. The Nashville model.

 

All that being said, I think that any team would absolutely love to have both Jonathan Drouin and Alex Galchenyuk at FW. These are two young, dynamic, exciting, very high-ceiling offensive forwards. They have the potential to become core players who will give opposition defences fits for years to come. So I support the trade, as long as acquiring Drouin is not a prelude to trading Galy - as though the Habs only have room for one dynamic young forward at a time.

I agree that too mobile D are worth more than a forward, unless we are talking about top 10 centres.  I think Galchenyuk can become one and the reason why I wouldn't trade him for a D not names ekman-larsson is that you have to give him every chance to be that 10 centre first.

 

I hate our depth at D, but we are worse at centre.  

 

We can't look at the preds or penguins model.  No way we are going to get a D like the preds given our depth at D.  They have Subban and Josi that may become among the top 5 D of their generation.   Those guys aren't available (no point saying we had one of them and could potentially built that kind if D with Subban and Sergechev).  We are also not suddenly going to get 2 generational Centremen like the pens.

 

What we can do is see if galchenyuk and possibly Drouin can both fill the centre position and see if we can trade picks and prospects for someone like methot.  If MB had any brains he would have made a huge offer of picks and prospects to vegas to get them to pick Dumba.  McPhee really screws up that pick. I can't see how we couldn't have offered more than he got out of Minnesota.  but that ship has also sailed.  I do think we can get methot without giving up a roster player and that is what MB should be focused on, rather than being hell bent on moving galchenyuk (as rumoured by most of the talking heads). So I agree we need to keep Drouin and Galchenyuk and they should be what are forward core should be built around.

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2 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

We can't look at the preds or penguins model.

 

Since he came in, Bergevin has been obsessed with the Blackhawks model.

 

The best model is to follow no model and create your own. Pittsburgh, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, Detroit, all the last cup winners in the past decade created their own model of success. Three of those teams underwent a long rebuild but how they went about it was different.

 

Right now Montreal is riding with a depleted prospect pool, with very few top six forwards and absolutely no potential top six centres in their minor leagues. Their franchise player is about to have his $6M deal expire meaning all the years with him at a good price have been wasted. Their captain is another year away from being in the same situation. If they had a model, it's walking the runway with broken feet.

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8 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Since he came in, Bergevin has been obsessed with the Blackhawks model.

 

The best model is to follow no model and create your own. Pittsburgh, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, Detroit, all the last cup winners in the past decade created their own model of success. Three of those teams underwent a long rebuild but how they went about it was different.

 

Right now Montreal is riding with a depleted prospect pool, with very few top six forwards and absolutely no potential top six centres in their minor leagues. Their franchise player is about to have his $6M deal expire meaning all the years with him at a good price have been wasted. Their captain is another year away from being in the same situation. If they had a model, it's walking the runway with broken feet.

I've been against MB since his first four major moves. Hiring MT.  Contract fight and bridge with Subban, not hiring Robinson (going  with his useless buddy daigneult instead), and signing Briere.  Aside from stealing  Vanak, getting a new goalie coach and signing maxpac to a bargain deal, all of his major moves have sucked (jury still out on the Drouin trade).

 

its top bad, because I had high hopes when he was hired and he inherited a pretty good core.  Not sure who to blame more MB for stupidity, or Molson for not firing MB when he stuck with  MT last year.

 

sickng with the coach got a cup winner GM fired in Pittsburgh.  In Montreal it's all good.

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2 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I've been against MB since his first four major moves. Hiring MT.  Contract fight and bridge with Subban, not hiring Robinson (going  with his useless buddy daigneult instead), and signing Briere.  Aside from stealing  Vanak, getting a new goalie coach and signing maxpac to a bargain deal, all of his major moves have sucked (jury still out on the Drouin trade).

 

I think Bergevin has been above average in trades, below average in contract negotiations, very below average in drafting, absolutely atrocious in player development, deplorable in coaching and front office hiring (It's like Waite and Dudley and who the heck else?), but hilarious when handling the media with all of his great zingers and funny lines to deflect his job as general manager.

 

The team feels more like a country club than a prestigious organization, and the moment Carey Price looked like CAREY PRICE in 13-14 he should have done everything he could to turn the team into a Stanley Cup contender. He should have sold whatever needed to be sold to get there. Jarome Iginla for Joe Niewendyk type deals (you know, kind of like the Drouin - Sergachev deal) to put the team over the top. Instead he played slow and steady and wasted the good years of all the young core he had.

 

He's only now working like the team has a ticking clock because the ticking clock is Carey Price. 

 

(In 13-14 the Habs had $18.7 million tied up in Danny Briere, David Desharnais, Rene Bourque, Travis Moen, George Parros, Brandon Prust, Douglass Murray, and Mike Weaver. They only had $9.965 tied up in Alex Galchenyuk, Lars Eller, Brendan Gallagher, Dale Weise, and P.K. Subban. Imagine if nearly $19 million of that cap was spent smarter in 13-14.)

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The ticking clock is his career

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On 6/17/2017 at 3:48 PM, Commandant said:

 

And i previously explained... the habs now protect one of shaw/hudon instead of both 

 

Meh.

Worked out ok. 

Edited by dreegking
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1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

The ticking clock is his career

 

Price? Unless you got some inside info on his injuries we don't know, he's probably going to be an elite goaltender until he's 35, and then he'll probably be a near elite goalie until 38, then he'll start slipping. 

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1 hour ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Price? Unless you got some inside info on his injuries we don't know, he's probably going to be an elite goaltender until he's 35, and then he'll probably be a near elite goalie until 38, then he'll start slipping. 

No, I was saying  Bergevin's career 

 

Ya, price could be elite for a long time 

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2 minutes ago, Stogey24 said:

No, I was saying  Bergevin's career 

 

Ya, price could be elite for a long time 

Is one possibility.

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5 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

I've been against MB since his first four major moves. Hiring MT.  Contract fight and bridge with Subban, not hiring Robinson (going  with his useless buddy daigneult instead), and signing Briere.  Aside from stealing  Vanak, getting a new goalie coach and signing maxpac to a bargain deal, all of his major moves have sucked (jury still out on the Drouin trade).

 

its top bad, because I had high hopes when he was hired and he inherited a pretty good core.  Not sure who to blame more MB for stupidity, or Molson for not firing MB when he stuck with  MT last year.

 

sickng with the coach got a cup winner GM fired in Pittsburgh.  In Montreal it's all good.

You do know that Robinson criticized Subban recently, right? I agree with some points but you can't have everything you wish for and expect that it would have gone smoothly.

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36 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

You do know that Robinson criticized Subban recently, right? I agree with some points but you can't have everything you wish for and expect that it would have gone smoothly.

Don't waste your breath, some seem to need to bitch about something or everything in every single post.

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45 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

You do know that Robinson criticized Subban recently, right? I agree with some points but you can't have everything you wish for and expect that it would have gone smoothly.

So, just because he criticized Subban, you don't think I'd want a Robinson as a coach??  I've also been critical of some of the things Subban has said or done.  That doesn't mean I think trading him for Weber was a good move.

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6 minutes ago, DON said:

Don't waste your breath, some seem to need to bitch about something or everything in every single post.

And some will swallow and eat manure if it's handed to them by management 

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Clearly MB has made mistakes. But what GM hasnt! Alli know is those are hardly the only good moves he has done in Montreal

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all things considered, trading seems to be better for bergevin than development. 

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2 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

Everything is really hard for MB.  I wonder if he used that phrase a lot in his job interview.  "It's really hard being a GM, hard to make a trade, hard to develop players,  hard to make the playoffs, and even harder to win the cup.  The hardest thing so far has been firing his useless buddies.

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Despite what some may think here in our own fanbase, the fact is no matter who is GM here, once a few years start to go by, everything is highly scrutinized on a grand scale. The good moves get tossed aside in conversations and we dwell on the not so good moves vehemently, its the nature of the beast.

 

First lets look around the league and find ONE active GM who has not made a blunder or 2 in the past 5 years in regards to Trades, Contracts, and Drafting. Once that task is complete and we realize there is no such GM lets move on to the next point. Just earlier today I saw Frank Seravalli talking on TSN about how Bergevin is widely regarded by his Peers as one of the most active, and capable GMs in the league. His ability to identify and make moves to fix issues within his roster over the course of the Summer is near the top in the league according to the GM who just won the cup 2 years in a row he said.

 

They underlined the Drouin trade, the manipulation to nearly force Vegas to take Emelin, the very low cost acquisition of a top 6 dman earlier today. Bob Mckenzie is certain Bergevin is all over the phone searching for a top 4 Defenceman and a Center at the right price. Even if he doesn't pull it off, we can still see he has his sights set in the right direction, a direction not many of us would dispute are needs at this point. So lets stop acting like he hasn't made some good moves over the years, lets stop acting like all he does is incompetent ones, lets stop acting like we have missed the playoffs for 5 years straight instead of only the 1 year that we actually did. I look at his body of work, and I know it isn't perfect, but no one's will be, I know he has done a better job than the previous 4 Gms so far. It would seem he is highly regarded by those in his position around the league, all of that means something, It means it could be a lot worse, with very little guaranteeing it could be better.

 

He hasn't screwed this team up to the point of not being competitive, and until he basically makes the wheels fall off we should just give him his chance to build a championship team. There are very good GMs who have been trying to Build Champions for much longer than he has, Bob Murray, Chuck Flethcher, Doug Wilson, Doug Armstrong to name a few. Why should Bergevin not get the same chance as long as he keeps icing a competitive team? Because we are a much more radioactive hockey environment than all the other places those quality GMs work for? Come on now..

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, tyberius67 said:

Despite what some may think here in our own fanbase, the fact is no matter who is GM here, once a few years start to go by, everything is highly scrutinized on a grand scale. The good moves get tossed aside in conversations and we dwell on the not so good moves vehemently, its the nature of the beast.

 

First lets look around the league and find ONE active GM who has not made a blunder or 2 in the past 5 years in regards to Trades, Contracts, and Drafting. Once that task is complete and we realize there is no such GM lets move on to the next point. Just earlier today I saw Frank Seravalli talking on TSN about how Bergevin is widely regarded by his Peers as one of the most active, and capable GMs in the league. His ability to identify and make moves to fix issues within his roster over the course of the Summer is near the top in the league according to the GM who just won the cup 2 years in a row he said.

 

They underlined the Drouin trade, the manipulation to nearly force Vegas to take Emelin, the very low cost acquisition of a top 6 dman earlier today. Bob Mckenzie is certain Bergevin is all over the phone searching for a top 4 Defenceman and a Center at the right price. Even if he doesn't pull it off, we can still see he has his sights set in the right direction, a direction not many of us would dispute are needs at this point. So lets stop acting like he hasn't made some good moves over the years, lets stop acting like all he does is incompetent ones, lets stop acting like we have missed the playoffs for 5 years straight instead of only the 1 year that we actually did. I look at his body of work, and I know it isn't perfect, but no one's will be, I know he has done a better job than the previous 4 Gms so far. It would seem he is highly regarded by those in his position around the league, all of that means something, It means it could be a lot worse, with very little guaranteeing it could be better.

 

He hasn't screwed this team up to the point of not being competitive, and until he basically makes the wheels fall off we should just give him his chance to build a championship team. There are very good GMs who have been trying to Build Champions for much longer than he has, Bob Murray, Chuck Flethcher, Doug Wilson, Doug Armstrong to name a few. Why should Bergevin not get the same chance as long as he keeps icing a competitive team? Because we are a much more radioactive hockey environment than all the other places those quality GMs work for? Come on now..

 

 

 

 

A gm's job is to build a team.  MB inherited Price, markov, Subban, maxpac, pleks, Gallagher and was gifted he  Galchenyuk pick.  That's a pretty good core to build around.  

 

Name me a player they drafted and developed into a regular?  Galchenyuk.  A player who didn't play in the minors.  Was drafted to be a centre, but was never allowed to play centre until DD finally got hurt.  After wasting over 2 years of his development by not letting learn to be an NHL centre by actually letting him play the friggin position, once he finally learns the position and gets injured and struggles upon his return, he gets thrown back to the wing and Mgmt says he hasn't shown he can play the position.  Is some of this on the player?  Sure, but was he put in a position to learn the position? I don't think so!

 

The only other player drafted by MB in 6"5 years that has shown any sign of being a regular is Lekhonan - and he was developed playing on the Swedish league.

 

that is on MB and his Mgmt team.  Someone should have been fired - it's inexcusable for lefebve to be retained two years ago, let alone this year.

 

After the year MT had - complete collapse - no other GM would have retained his coach in that positon. No other GM would have traded for Ben friggin Scrivens with his team in a free fall when Price went down.

 

When MB came, the habs lacked scoring and a true 1st line centre - if anything they are worse now that Pleks is washed up. They lacked depth on the top 4 on D.  Today, they lack depth on the top 4, only older.

 

Since he he came on board his positives:

- turning Cole into Ryder 

- extension to maxpac

- trade for vanak

- trade for petry - Petry extension, which was more money than I think Petry is woth -I think he is a soft player-but he was a UFA, and most defence hot home runs as ufa's -

-daneult, Byron, radulov and possibly Drouin move (if we hadn't moved Subban, I think it would have been a great move, but we have no blue chip d and are old)

 

- negative MT hiring and than sticking with him too long

-lousy Mgmt team that has not developed any players as mentioned at the outset 

- revolving door of failed stop gaps, like semin, kassian

-Briere, Murray and most other signings in his first year

-Subban bridge and subsequent trade

-handling and development of galchenyuk in particular -hanging on to DD and Beaulieu until they were worthless

 

The success we had is from having the best goalie in the world.  Without the goalie, MB had the 3rd worst team in the league.  NYR list lundquist for almost as long and were a solid team, but than their GM picked up decent backups and had a coach that did more than tell his goalie to stop the puck

 

 

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18 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

A gm's job is to build a team.  MB inherited Price, markov, Subban, maxpac, pleks, Gallagher and was gifted he  Galchenyuk pick.  That's a pretty good core to build around.  

 

Name me a player they drafted and developed into a regular?  Galchenyuk.  A player who didn't play in the minors.  Was drafted to be a centre, but was never allowed to play centre until DD finally got hurt.  After wasting over 2 years of his development by not letting learn to be an NHL centre by actually letting him play the friggin position, once he finally learns the position and gets injured and struggles upon his return, he gets thrown back to the wing and Mgmt says he hasn't shown he can play the position.  Is some of this on the player?  Sure, but was he put in a position to learn the position? I don't think so!

 

The only other player drafted by MB in 6"5 years that has shown any sign of being a regular is Lekhonan - and he was developed playing on the Swedish league.

 

that is on MB and his Mgmt team.  Someone should have been fired - it's inexcusable for lefebve to be retained two years ago, let alone this year.

 

After the year MT had - complete collapse - no other GM would have retained his coach in that positon. No other GM would have traded for Ben friggin Scrivens with his team in a free fall when Price went down.

 

When MB came, the habs lacked scoring and a true 1st line centre - if anything they are worse now that Pleks is washed up. They lacked depth on the top 4 on D.  Today, they lack depth on the top 4, only older.

 

Since he he came on board his positives:

- turning Cole into Ryder 

- extension to maxpac

- trade for vanak

- trade for petry - Petry extension, which was more money than I think Petry is woth -I think he is a soft player-but he was a UFA, and most defence hot home runs as ufa's -

-daneult, Byron, radulov and possibly Drouin move (if we hadn't moved Subban, I think it would have been a great move, but we have no blue chip d and are old)

 

- negative MT hiring and than sticking with him too long

-lousy Mgmt team that has not developed any players as mentioned at the outset 

- revolving door of failed stop gaps, like semin, kassian

-Briere, Murray and most other signings in his first year

-Subban bridge and subsequent trade

-handling and development of galchenyuk in particular -hanging on to DD and Beaulieu until they were worthless

 

The success we had is from having the best goalie in the world.  Without the goalie, MB had the 3rd worst team in the league.  NYR list lundquist for almost as long and were a solid team, but than their GM picked up decent backups and had a coach that did more than tell his goalie to stop the puck

 

 

 

I Agree with some of your points for sure, but again I also see a whole lot of batting aside the positive and amplifying the negatives,

Let me elaborate.

 

On the aspect of player development, Bergevin should have made a change there with Lefebvre. However other than that we can't throw the fact that guys didn't come up and turn into 25 goal scorers annually on him, he isn't the day to day guy with these kids. His part of the blame lies in his philosophy for long term stability within his staff in all major parts of the team, whether its coaches, player development or scouting, and that has lead a couple times now to situations where someone should have been fired sooner than they did.

 

on another note, development of a player evolves continually long after junior, and the AHL, up until the age of 26 or 27, and in that Aspect, Bergevin in your argument, is not being credited for positive situations he was a part of while at the helm. The development of Lehkonen is an easy one to see this season, McCaron looks able to handle a full time bottom 6 position with this team. Gallagher may not have been drafted by Bergevin but he is responsible for bringing him up to the NHL, and his development into the NHL player he is happened under Bergevin's eye. Danault was a depth player with potential when Bergevin acquired him, we could even go as far as saying Bergevin drafted Danault since it was his guy while he was in Chicago, and he believed in him when he traded for him. Now he has developed into a serviceable top 6 forward for us with still more time to reach his potential and it cost us a couple throw-aways to get him to boot. Lastly, Price, yup Carey Price is a player who reached his potential under the hand of Bergevin. Simply put Carey Price did not become the dominant league leader in goal until Stephane Waite came here and turned him into the guy we see today, and Marc Bergevin is the guy who saw the necessity in going after Waite to help Price refine his game.

 

As far as good and bad moves are concerned, I agree with certain aspects of your assessment, The Subban trade is either love it or hate it and an endless debate we won't get into. The revolving door of stop gaps were all no risk type situations that didn't handcuff us or hurt us at all. As for good moves you can likely add the Drouin trade to that list already, as you mentioned. Lets not forget bringing in Radulov to help our top 6 last summer, the trade for Benn, and now Schlemko, both NHL d-men acquired for peanuts really. He did take too long to Fire MT as you mentioned, but again there MT wasn't all bad either, he had some good seasons, and some players did thrive under his coaching, some players also did anything but thrive under his coaching. That said there is no way he should have survived last summer, but as I mentioned earlier it is a philosophy that is being used there that may not always be optimal. Sometimes the need for swift change is necessary, and in that aspect I hope Bergevin does get more proactive in the future with his staff, as he has proven to be several times with his roster. 

 

 

 

 

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On 6/22/2017 at 3:20 PM, hab29RETIRED said:

So, just because he criticized Subban, you don't think I'd want a Robinson as a coach??  I've also been critical of some of the things Subban has said or done.  That doesn't mean I think trading him for Weber was a good move.

No, but you were critical about how our coach handled Subban and that MT was hired and Larry wasn't. All the while it seems as though Robinson had the exact same mentality as Therrien and would have been no different in the handling of Subban. Do you prefer his face to Therrien's?

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28 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

No, but you were critical about how our coach handled Subban and that MT was hired and Larry wasn't. All the while it seems as though Robinson had the exact same mentality as Therrien and would have been no different in the handling of Subban. Do you prefer his face to Therrien's?

There's a difference between being critical of a player you have nothing to do with and a key guy on your team that you have a vested interest in and how you handle the situation.  Every player that has played for Robinson has nothing but respect for him and how he communicates.  He has never gone on a public tirade the way MT does.  

 

As a hall of farmer, cup winner (player and coach), Robinson commands respect.  He has been known for developing dman in particular (Stevens, Blake, vlasic, neidermeyer) to name a few. He would have handled the situation with much more finesse.

 

 MT on the other hand was a bafoon at his best but more often than not simply a loud mouth baboon.  He has zero credibility. He is probably one of the few coaches in NHL history who was responsible for his team losing a playoff series, because HE took two bench minors that turned around the game.  If MT had to perform surgery, he would use a sledgehammer, where a scalpel is required.

 

 

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