Carbonneau

[lazy26]

I've seen a lot of criticism regarding Carbo in the media and on the HW forums. I just thought we might get a separate thread going so that both sides, negative and positive, can say their piece.

I'm personally not sold on Carbo as a coach yet, but I'm not ready to run him out of town.

Here are some of the criticisms I've heard so far:

1 - He juggles lines too much. I think we can all agree on this, but I think we would be complaining if he wasn't trying to find the best combinations (remember the inseparable Kovy and Sammy tandem last year?). I'm glad he's left the 1st line alone... so far.

2 - He doesn't communicate with his players. If this is true, then there is no positive way to spin this. I'm just hoping that it's the media blowing this issue out of perspective. It seems that he is doing a better job communicating than last year, but I still think he needs to talk to his players before the media speaks with them.

3 - He scratches the young guys - I'm split on this issue. I really want to see Gorges playing more and Chips all the time, BUT I think the rotation he's introduced with Kosty, Lats, and Grabs (and the older guys) is genius. We've got a bunch of players that are blending in with each other. Sitting them for a game makes them hungry for game action, and I think Gui and Grabs responded well to being benched.

4 - He plays too defensively - I don't think our guys finish well enough to focus on a run and gun kind of approach. I personally prefer the faster approach, but I can handle the more balanced approach.

Anyway, there are many more issues, but I don't want to open myself up for too much criticism. I'm looking forward to seeing what our forum analysts have to say.

[Habsfan24]

The one thing that really gets me is the players he choses to put out there in key situations in games. This is not an isolated incident either, he continues to put the 3rd and 4th line out with under 2 mins to go in the games/period. Players that are paid the big bucks to lead this team and perform in the pressure situations are often left on the bench while the opposition continues to kill us late in periods and at the end of games.

Another time he puts these 3rd and 4th liners out there are after goals and esp. big goals (ie. Ottawa the other night). Everyone was bashing Kosto that he made a bad give away but lets be honest why was he out there in the first place.

I noticed Carbo doing this a lot last year as well and it was the main thing I was hoping over the summer he would come back and have a new outlook on how he divided up the players minutes but it does not appear as though this is the case.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Habsfan24

[smon]

Carbonneau's a better coach than he's given credit for.

However, his inexperience shows from time to time. It reminds to an extent of Michel Therrien during his tenure as the coach (although Carbonneau is certainly not as animated), especially in terms of who he plays in key situations. I recall Therrien took a lot of flak for not using Perreault in a key defensive zone faceoff with seconds left in regulation before the Hurricanes scored during the playoffs a few years back...and Carbonneau tends to do some of the same things, as the above poster mentioned.

There's a lot of silly theories about so much that he does, but in reality he's simply trying to ice a hard working winning team each night. And the whole juggling of players is actually a smart idea - look how well Dandenault responded.

[KoZed]

I'm definitely in the pro-Carbo camp, alot due to the exaggerated and recycled criticism every coach in Montreal has received for the past 10 years. Lot of that criticism is simply personal and without merit.

What a lot of people forget is that the Habs' success depends largely on its youth and Carbo has the hard task of winning games while developing kids the proper way, ie. break them into a team-oriented mold.

As for his choice of players in key situations... Let's be honest, there's 1 or 2 players on this team who are really "complete", and that'd be Higgins and Plekanec. Habs don't have an Yzerman, a Sakic or a Iginla they can use in any situation. Koivu & Ryder will never be mistaken for Selke Candidates. Kovalev is a wildcard, and after that who else is there but "role players" like Smoke and Kosto?

A coach has to be able to rely on his "role" players, ie. the guys whose sole purpose and expecation is to play a sound defensive game. That's the type of players Gainey, Carbo and Jarvis were. It's them who were on the ice in key defensive situations, not Lafleur or Naslund.

[JMMR]

He is a good coach and he will be a great playoff coach.

He is only in his second year but I really wish he would just give his offensive players an environment to succeed.

And I agree with what Habsfan24 said he does make some bad decisions and vital moments in games.

[brobin]

Let see, most of our scoring is on the powerplay. So right after that, the top two lines have just played and are usually tired, so he comes back with the 3rd line (the shut down line). The other team has just rested their top line, so out they come.

Carbo (and most coaches in this league) do not typically go top line against top line. They usually use a 3rd line as a defensive line to shut down the other team in these situations.

I love when people say "why wasn't Koivu and Higgy out there", when they just played the last shift.

I don't think Carbo is a great coach (might be one day), but he is certainly not what is holding this team back. This team lacks top talent. The best jockey in the world can't ride a donkey to the triple crown....

[brobin]

Oh, and while I wish we had more offensive output, I don't think it is the system. We suck defensively, especially 5 on 5. In addition, last year the habs were 15th in offense, which is about right for a middle talent team.

[Fanpuck33]

4 - He plays too defensively - I don't think our guys finish well enough to focus on a run and gun kind of approach. I personally prefer the faster approach, but I can handle the more balanced approach.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You say we don't finish well enough to play an offensive style, but at the same time you're criticizing him for using a defensive system.

[lazy26]

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You say we don't finish well enough to play an offensive style, but at the same time you're criticizing him for using a defensive system.

I didn't think I was. The outlined points weren't necessarily my own, I was just listing common criticisms, followed by my own take on them. So in this case, I mentionned that many people bemoan the defensive style Carbo uses, and I countered with my rationale as to why I think he does what he does. Is that any clearer?

[JMMR]

Let see, most of our scoring is on the powerplay. So right after that, the top two lines have just played and are usually tired, so he comes back with the 3rd line (the shut down line). The other team has just rested their top line, so out they come.

Carbo (and most coaches in this league) do not typically go top line against top line. They usually use a 3rd line as a defensive line to shut down the other team in these situations.

I love when people say "why wasn't Koivu and Higgy out there", when they just played the last shift.

I don't think Carbo is a great coach (might be one day), but he is certainly not what is holding this team back. This team lacks top talent. The best jockey in the world can't ride a donkey to the triple crown....

Well look at it this way.

Lets say Koivu Kovalev and Ryder were just on the ice with Markov and Streit.

Then bring on a group like this Plekanec Kostitsyn Smolinski Higgins with Komisarek and Hamrlik or vice versa. Players can handle being double shifted once in a while.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I find that much of the attack on Carbo overlooks the reasonably positive big picture in favour of debatable details (e.g., assaults on his 'player selection' that don't necessarily factor in either the calibre of individual performances that night, or who was on the ice the previous shift, or that he may be saving players X and Y for the next shift; or the whole ridiculous fooforah over his non-existent 'failure' to call a time out). This team is working harder and playing better defensively than last year's. I see a firm foundation being lain here, and Carbo deserves credit for that.

The other thing is his constant line-changing. They make exactly the same complaint about Alain Vigneault here in Vancouver. Vigneault, as it happens, was coach of the year. It seems to be the dominant school of coaching these days. I don't say I love it, but you know, Pat Burns was a real pro at it, too...so Guy could be in worse company.

And every young player except Perezhogin progressed under his tutleage last season. Another significant consideration. The contrast with the supposedly rock-solid Calude Julien is, in this respect, very striking indeed.

So on balance, Carbonneau deserves qualified, cautious praise, to balance off the reasonable criticism that he also deserves. Bottom line: too soon to render a verdict, but there's positives here.

[Habitforming]

I'd have to quit my job to post in this thread full time if I start listing Carbo's issues so I'll just say....

Nice thread; it has the potential to be the longest thread in the HW forums history.

[Fanpuck33]

I didn't think I was. The outlined points weren't necessarily my own, I was just listing common criticisms, followed by my own take on them. So in this case, I mentionned that many people bemoan the defensive style Carbo uses, and I countered with my rationale as to why I think he does what he does. Is that any clearer?

Indeed it is.

[Pierre the Great]

getting comfy for this thread.

woot!

fire carbonneau and replacing him with??

[Habitforming]

getting comfy for this thread.

woot!

fire carbonneau and replacing him with??

IF he does go (not likely at all though ) there are alot of options.

The best fit is obviously Pat Burns.

[Chips]

IMO.

I'm all for giving Carbo lots of chances... He is a rookie coach learning his way in that regard. But by and large, so is the team he has to work with... many can and do make mistakes.

He has the elements and tools needed to succeed. And so does the team.

Carbo's job is to use that to the advantage of the HABS! Lets give him more time. But this is not the AHL and expectations are high. You get paid the big bucks in the big league to win not lose.

Remember rookies have about 20 games to show their stuff at the start of the season or risk being run out of town back to the AHL. At what point do you call to question a rookie coach?

We are not the only group of Habs supporters to question him at this point of the season or his tenure with the Canadiens.

I'm sure Bob's been evaluating his progress this year as compared to his past and the time for patience will run out but not yet!

I suggest we give him till the playoffs. If we don't make it or it looks like we won't then let the axe swing.

GO HABS GO!

[Prime Minister Koivu]

IMO.

I'm all for giving Carbo lots of chances... He is a rookie coach learning his way in that regard. But by and large, so is the team he has to work with... many can and do make mistakes.

He has the elements and tools needed to succeed. And so does the team.

Carbo's job is to use that to the advantage of the HABS! Lets give him more time. But this is not the AHL and expectations are high. You get paid the big bucks in the big league to win not lose.

Remember rookies have about 20 games to show their stuff at the start of the season or risk being run out of town back to the AHL. At what point do you call to question a rookie coach?

We are not the only group of Habs supporters to question him at this point of the season or his tenure with the Canadiens.

I'm sure Bob's been evaluating his progress this year as compared to his past and the time for patience will run out but not yet!

I suggest we give him till the playoffs. If we don't make it or it looks like we won't then let the axe swing.

GO HABS GO!

I agree with this as long as Carbo continues to learn and show growth.

If the same issues continue at the same level without any improvement then he should be replaced. Carbo could benefit from some leadership training. Specifically building his communication skills.

I personally don't think the trap system suits the players we have but I am willing to see what Carbo can do with it.

[bar]

I don't like how he's constantly agruing with the refs after every call.

[Cataclaw]

I don't like how he's constantly agruing with the refs after every call.

He used to do this all the time last year, after nearly every call. Now he seems to do it for calls he considers to be blatantly wrong. It's not as bad. He's learning.

Most coaches will argue or at least try to know what's going on after a suspicious call.

I'm not worried about Carbo regarding this issue, since he seems to be learning and improving.

[brobin]

He used to do this all the time last year, after nearly every call. Now he seems to do it for calls he considers to be blatantly wrong. It's not as bad. He's learning.

Most coaches will argue or at least try to know what's going on after a suspicious call.

I'm not worried about Carbo regarding this issue, since he seems to be learning and improving.

I agree, he has shown more restraint (improvement) this year in handling the refs. He still has some improvement to do before he gets full marks for this.

I think the problem is not that he argues calls, its the expression on his face when he does it. I know if someone gave me that condecending look, I would be pissed. He needs to learn to give them the eye.. the "I am pissed off at you" look, as opposed to the "I think you are an idiot" look.

[BCHabnut]

I'm definitely in the pro-Carbo camp, alot due to the exaggerated and recycled criticism every coach in Montreal has received for the past 10 years. Lot of that criticism is simply personal and without merit.

What a lot of people forget is that the Habs' success depends largely on its youth and Carbo has the hard task of winning games while developing kids the proper way, ie. break them into a team-oriented mold.

As for his choice of players in key situations... Let's be honest, there's 1 or 2 players on this team who are really "complete", and that'd be Higgins and Plekanec. Habs don't have an Yzerman, a Sakic or a Iginla they can use in any situation. Koivu & Ryder will never be mistaken for Selke Candidates. Kovalev is a wildcard, and after that who else is there but "role players" like Smoke and Kosto?

A coach has to be able to rely on his "role" players, ie. the guys whose sole purpose and expecation is to play a sound defensive game. That's the type of players Gainey, Carbo and Jarvis were. It's them who were on the ice in key defensive situations, not Lafleur or Naslund.

I agree Kozed.

Carbo only has so many players to work with. The ones who are not "complete" players like Higgins or Plex need to be used in different situations, and they need to be able to perform well as a team. I sometimes wonder if this isn't why he juggles lines so often as well. Getting his players used to playing with everyone. Making a competent team that can embrace any situation.

That's a little optimistic I guess, but when you have a bench full of young guns, why not see what they can do in key situations early in the season?

[bar]

This is going to be a bit of a stretch, but bare with me.

You notice how in interviews he never praises the players too much? Now, not saying this is a negative. This reminds me of Bill Belichek, from the Patriots. You think this might be way of not letting the players get too comfortable? I kind of like it, if you get praised you can get caught not working as hard?

[BCHabnut]

This is going to be a bit of a stretch, but bare with me.

You notice how in interviews he never praises the players too much? Now, not saying this is a negative. This reminds me of Bill Belichek, from the Patriots. You think this might be way of not letting the players get too comfortable? I kind of like it, if you get praised you can get caught not working as hard?

It's kinda like a father son relationship. Or at least mine with my dad. Then when you do get a bit of praise you feel like a king.

[Cataclaw]

I think the problem is not that he argues calls, its the expression on his face when he does it. I know if someone gave me that condecending look, I would be pissed. He needs to learn to give them the eye.. the "I am pissed off at you" look, as opposed to the "I think you are an idiot" look.

You raise a very good point. The psychological factors involved in this are greater than we might think. I agree, he should look more pissed and less condescending.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Cataclaw

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

While we're on the subject of Carbo and the refs, I don't think he's helped by the combination of voice and accent. I know it sounds silly, but when RDS miked him, they played back an exchange with a ref in which Carbonneau came off sounding quite cutting and snotty. But I think the 'problem' is partly one of manner and pronunciation - someone working in their second language is often likely to miss nuances such as the appropriate amount of emphasis to put on a word without sounding rude, etc.. Add to that a rather whiny voice and it's a bad combination.

It's worth remembering that Carbo was a first-class agitator on the ice. Being irritating may just be built into his makeup as a competitor.