Is it time to trade Saku?

[brobin]

Point taken, but I think you overdo it a bit. You categorize posters, for one, when alot of us transcend your categories' boundaries. I believe the team slumps when he does, I believe you make a deal involving him if it is right (which is a whole other thread that is subject to personal opinions), and I defend him when people post crap.

The crap that I'm talking about is how he sucks, cant make a pass, etc... I know he is slumping, but dont post that shit.

Let me say it, in the last 3 weeks, Koivu has been passing like crap. Period.

I have been a Koivu fan since the day he put his habs jersey on. I was there the night he blew out his knee. (sad sad day).

I don't think we should trade him, but we need a better centre then him. I would prefer we get a number 1 centre and move koivu and pleks down a line. They we are smoking.

Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen, at least until the FA season.

That said, if a true number 1 centre was offered and they wanted Koivu back as part of the package, then I would definitely consider it. I prefer they take Smo, but I don't think the kind of stupidity we saw in the Thorton trade is going to happen again.

[Wamsley01]

Let me say it, in the last 3 weeks, Koivu has been passing like crap. Period.

I have been a Koivu fan since the day he put his habs jersey on. I was there the night he blew out his knee. (sad sad day).

I don't think we should trade him, but we need a better centre then him. I would prefer we get a number 1 centre and move koivu and pleks down a line. They we are smoking.

Unfortunately, that is unlikely to happen, at least until the FA season.

That said, if a true number 1 centre was offered and they wanted Koivu back as part of the package, then I would definitely consider it. I prefer they take Smo, but I don't think the kind of stupidity we saw in the Thorton trade is going to happen again.

Dumbest trade since the Houle era! We can always hope though

[SAKS-AVENUE]

I am not saying fans should boo Saku.

I am making a point to suggest that he gets a free pass in comparison to previous superstars. I have never attacked his person. I applauded his courage through his cancer, I applaud his local efforts in Montreal, I applaud the fact that he works his ass off. But I do not give free passes for what he does on the ice.

My issue is in comparing him to Sundin. It is ridiculous. Sundin dominates hockey games, Koivu never had, and never will do this. How many times have the Leafs beaten us because Mats destroyed us. His career best is nowhere near Sundin's 130 and their stats do not measure up. Sundin has won 12-13 playoff series in his career. He beat Koivu in the Gold Medal game in the Olympics. Get over it. Sundin is a better player.

My issue is with blindly defending Koivu, which happens on here daily. If you want to rile up the locals, bash Saku. Easy as pie.

The standards of excellence have dropped so far in the city of Montreal that they are just like every other city now.

Demands decreased, Results decreased.

Saku has given his heart and soul to this organization. That I respect. Blindly sticking up for him, and insulting very knowledgeable posters, I do not.

I like Pizza, You might like Burgers. I like girls, you might like boys. Why would you say "blindly sticking up for him "? Everyones points are valid, not what you deem them to be. Being the very knowledgeable poster that you are.

Whatever your cup of tea is so be it. Neither Saku or Mats have a Stanley cup ring. I prefer the Habs win one soon with him on the team. After all these years it wouldn't be right without him. Plain and simple.

As far as your standards of excellence theory. Come on dude! The Nhl has changed. Hands are tied. Look at the standings and how tight they are. To win a cup these days you must have all the right ingredients and a lot of luck to get a win. The dynasty days are over, the cap will make sure of that. Anyways, Saku is a very important ingredient on this team and I like him more then Sundin regardless of point totals and any knowledgeable point you might make.

[Wamsley01]

I like Pizza, You might like Burgers. I like girls, you might like boys. Why would you say "blindly sticking up for him "? Everyones points are valid, not what you deem them to be. Being the very knowledgeable poster that you are.

Whatever your cup of tea is so be it. Neither Saku or Mats have a Stanley cup ring. I prefer the Habs win one soon with him on the team. After all these years it wouldn't be right without him. Plain and simple.

As far as your standards of excellence theory. Come on dude! The Nhl has changed. Hands are tied. Look at the standings and how tight they are. To win a cup these days you must have all the right ingredients and a lot of luck to get a win. The dynasty days are over, the cap will make sure of that. Anyways, Saku is a very important ingredient on this team and I like him more then Sundin regardless of point totals and any knowledgeable point you might make.

I am fine with differing opinions. If you do not want to trade Koivu, that is fine.

But where are the rebuttals to the points that various posters make? His point production, his failure to lead this team anywhere, his annual swoon. I hear no rebuttals. Instead various posters are attacked with things like stupid post,

why are these people here, that is ######ed, what is wrong with you. I listed off a bunch of weak rebuttals that have nothing to do with the points that are being made. (Injuries, Leadership, Management etc)

Who cares if Sundin has not won a Cup. Does that make Dandenault better than Koivu?

Does it put Koivu on the same level as a Pat Lafontaine because he did not win?

Maybe dynasties are dead, but Toronto made the second round of the playoffs 6 years in a row, THE LEAFS! How many series have the Devils and Wings played in the last 10 years?

Excuse, after excuse. He is a good player, not a great one. End of Story. If you disagree, fine. But until somebody gives me a legitimate thought provoking argument to prove all the valid points otherwise. I will continue to like Burgers and Boys.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Wamsley01

[smon]

Your best player has to be your best player. If your best player is gonna slump every season for 1/4 of the season, you're not going to be a successful team. This team has had a long trend of going long stretches of bad play. Is it Koivu's fault he is the best player on the team? No. But when your best player is a guy who is gonna slump like this, it is not a good thing. Koivu is a complementary player, he is not a guy we should have been building around the last however many years. I like him and would like to see him stay, but the fact that he is our best player is a problem.

Yeah, I'd definitely agree with that.

It's not that I don't realize that Koivu is not a great player. He's good one, yes. Mats Sundin, no he's not. It's that I realize that the Canadiens probably aren't going to be better off for making a move like that. The value the team places on him might not be what other teams place on him.

Say what you want about Koivu and the lack of playoffs, and what not. But the Leafs in comparison spent a lot of money to attract plenty of veteran players over the years, and the Canadiens just haven't done that.

It's frustrating that the Canadiens are mediocre and have been for so many seasons. It's even more painful when it seems that the higher-ups are content to leave it that way as long as they are making money (great, another parallel with the Leafs). But all we can hope for as fans is that the younger players like Higgins and Komisarek improve and the team gets better. I've given up on hoping for Gainey to make a big move, because it isn't going to happen. There hasn't been one noteworthy trade in the league since the offseason, anyway.

I just don't see the point of debating whether Koivu should be traded - he's got a no-trade clause, and he's hardly the cause of the team's pathetic play.

That, and I'm sick and tired of hearing about Patrick Marleau repeatedly. He signed a huge contract with the Sharks and I doubt they're going to move him, anyway.

For what it's worth, ESPN's columnist was musing that the Leafs should trade Sundin for him

Edited December 7, 2007 by smon

[Trizzak]

NTC

[Wamsley01]

NTC

Who cares if he has a NTC. The whole thread is gathering opinions on wether you would trade him or not.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

I am fine with differing opinions. If you do not want to trade Koivu, that is fine.

But where are the rebuttals to the points that various posters make? His point production, his failure to lead this team anywhere, his annual swoon. I hear no rebuttals. Instead various posters are attacked with things like stupid post,

why are these people here, that is ######ed, what is wrong with you. I listed off a bunch of weak rebuttals that have nothing to do with the points that are being made. (Injuries, Leadership, Management etc)

Who cares if Sundin has not won a Cup. Does that make Dandenault better than Koivu?

Does it put Koivu on the same level as a Pat Lafontaine because he did not win?

Maybe dynasties are dead, but Toronto made the second round of the playoffs 6 years in a row, THE LEAFS! How many series have the Devils and Wings played in the last 10 years?

Excuse, after excuse. He is a good player, not a great one. End of Story. If you disagree, fine. But until somebody gives me a legitimate thought provoking argument to prove all the valid points otherwise. I will continue to like Burgers and Boys.

Simonus needs you in "Keep the Faith" thread. He's looking for someone more knowledgeable than him.

I don't agree with you but I hear you. Keep in mind that the age difference of posters is great. Some fans react on loyalty and heart and some on pure facts and numbers. And sometimes it's just much more fun to watch someone get all hot under the collar by just answering a post with "######"

We have all seen glimpses of Saks when he gets hot. He scared the shit out of Carolina in that 1st round until he got injured. The last few years when we did make the play-offs we were beat by the team that ended up winning it all. When we came back from Boston Saks led us. He's played 43 play-off games and has 36 points....+11. One of those years he spent the season doing radiation and didn't miss a beat when he came back. Maybe the numbers aren't high enough for you but I can't help wondering how far we could go with a little support for this guy. HE HAS NEVER.............NEVER HAD IT.

So just before anyone considers trading him I would like to see some help brought in to compliment him. That would be a better, productive direction, if we want a Stanley Cup.

I'd rather have Marleau and Koivu.......we could become contenders that way. Just Marleau? forget about it and watch San Jose go and get the cup. Well maybe not because of the big CHOKER THORTON is there.

[Trizzak]

Who cares if he has a NTC. The whole thread is gathering opinions on wether you would trade him or not.

The point is moot, though. You can't.

[CBHabs_fan]

I am fine with differing opinions. If you do not want to trade Koivu, that is fine.

But where are the rebuttals to the points that various posters make? His point production, his failure to lead this team anywhere, his annual swoon. I hear no rebuttals. Instead various posters are attacked with things like stupid post,

why are these people here, that is ######ed, what is wrong with you. I listed off a bunch of weak rebuttals that have nothing to do with the points that are being made. (Injuries, Leadership, Management etc)

Who cares if Sundin has not won a Cup. Does that make Dandenault better than Koivu?

Does it put Koivu on the same level as a Pat Lafontaine because he did not win?

Maybe dynasties are dead, but Toronto made the second round of the playoffs 6 years in a row, THE LEAFS! How many series have the Devils and Wings played in the last 10 years?

Excuse, after excuse. He is a good player, not a great one. End of Story. If you disagree, fine. But until somebody gives me a legitimate thought provoking argument to prove all the valid points otherwise. I will continue to like Burgers and Boys.

Well, there is no winning with you. So this will be my last post on this.

You ask for rebuttals. There are none. He is what he is:

I am not saying he is a great player, but very good.

You say he has never led the habs anywhere, so be it. He is not dead yet. Then you go on to praise Mats for leading the Leafs to............THE SECOND ROUND. Woohoo. Party Time. For a guy that says how much he wants a cup, your standards seem pretty low for a leader when you refer to Mats. Besides, I have yet to hear anyone say that Saku is actually better than Mats, just not out of his league as you suggest. No doubt Mats is great and probably better than Saku, but that is, as you have pointed out about other peoples arguments.....beside the point.

The point is that most people love him. He is inspirational. He loves Montreal and Montreal loves him. If and when we win a cup and I see Pleks raise it above his head, I would not be moved. I think we all want to see Saku do that. We will not get enough to offset his loss through trading. So instead I think we need to find a #1 centre and let Saku move to #2 or 3.

I'm not sure who you refer to when you talk about "defending Saku blindly". Maybe it is other posters, maybe it is me. Though I would take offense to that, because I have only defended him against outrageous shit like "he sucks", "cant pass" etc. I am knowledgeable, and I'm not naive enough to think he is a superstar, or wil lead this team on his own, to the promiseland. (Though he could have been an eye injury away from doing some damage not long ago).

In summary , continue to tell us how Saku is average, is getting older, has not won a cup, and is not a cornerstone on which to build a cup contender. You are not making any new or insightful points. We all know this. Some of us just cant stand to hear him constantly trashed for being what he is or, worse, being lowered beyond this in some people's opinion.

Edited December 7, 2007 by CBHabs_fan

[Fanpuck33]

The point is moot, though. You can't.

No trade clauses can be waived...

[Wamsley01]

Well, there is no winning with you. So this will be my last post on this.

You ask for rebuttals. There are none. He is what he is:

I am not saying he is a great player, but very good.

You say he has never led the habs anywhere, so be it. He is not dead yet. Then you go on to praise Mats for leading the Leafs to............THE SECOND ROUND. Woohoo. Party Time. For a guy that says how much he wants a cup, your standards seem pretty low for a leader when you refer to Mats. Besides, I have yet to hear anyone say that Saku is actually better than Mats, just not out of his league as you suggest. No doubt Mats is great and probably better than Saku, but that is, as you have pointed out about other peoples arguments.....beside the point.

The point is that most people love him. He is inspirational. He loves Montreal and Montreal loves him. If and when we win a cup and I see Pleks raise it above his head, I would not be moved. I think we all want to see Saku do that. We will not get enough to offset his loss through trading. So instead I think we need to find a #1 centre and let Saku move to #2 or 3.

I'm not sure who you refer to when you talk about "defending Saku blindly". Maybe it is other posters, maybe it is me. Though I would take offense to that, because I have only defended him against outrageous shit like "he sucks", "cant pass" etc. I am knowledgeable, and I'm not naive enough to think he is a superstar, or wil lead this team on his own, to the promiseland. (Though he could have been an eye injury away from doing some damage not long ago).

In summary , continue to tell us how Saku is average, is getting older, has not won a cup, and is not a cornerstone on which to build a cup contender. You are not making any new or insightful points. We all know this. Some of us just cant stand to hear him constantly trashed for being what he is or, worse, being lowered beyond this in some people's opinion.

First off, the post is aimed at all those who disrespect people on the board not for what they say, but because their opinion differs on Koivu. If you feel you fit into the category, then take offense. I don't care. I am giving my opinion. Some of you will like it, some of you will not.

1. I never mentioned Mats being a better leader. I said he is a better player who has accomplished more. If leadership was compared it was in contrast to Koivu's accomplishments. That being said Sundin has been to the Conference Finals twice. If you think Saku is in the same league be my guest. But I know of no Leaf fan who is afraid of Koivu on the ice in the last minute. And people on this board have said he is better.

2. I could give a shit who raises the cup above their head, as long as they are wearing a CH. If I can cheer for Doug Gilmour, I can cheer for anyone. I think I would get over it not being Koivu.

3. I never claimed to make insightful points on Koivu. He is getting older, his best years are past, he has won nothing and is not a cornerstone to build on. But I am tired of hearing Brisebois turns the puck over to much, I am tired of hearing how Huet can't finish a season, I am tired of hearing that Ryder is one dimensional, I am tired of hearing that Kovalev dogs it alot, I am tired of hearing that Higgins is good but not that good, I am tired of hearing that if they rush Price that he will turn into Fleury, I am tired of hearing that the Habs are inconsistent, I am tired of hearing people complain how they blow leads, I am tired of hearing that we should bring up Kostitsyn/Lapierre/O'Byrne.

Shall I go on?

These are the type of things you here when your team is/and has been average for 10 years. So if you don't want to hear people whine, then a messageboard is probably not the best place to hang when the team is losing. It is what it is.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Wamsley01

[CBHabs_fan]

Well, I guess I would exclude myself then since I havent been disrespectful to anyone. I too will continue to give an opinion, even if it is to defend Koivu against nonsense posts...and I would agree with you on the attitude that I dont give a shit if that bothers anyone (including you).

Just have to point out one more thing. The last sentence of your quote here kinda sounds like you're describing yourself when you look at the paragraph you typed in the very same post. I guess we all get tired of hearing people whine sometimes eh?

I am tired of hearing Brisebois turns the puck over to much, I am tired of hearing how Huet can't finish a season, I am tired of hearing that Ryder is one dimensional, I am tired of hearing that Kovalev dogs it alot, I am tired of hearing that Higgins is good but not that good, I am tired of hearing that if they rush Price that he will turn into Fleury, I am tired of hearing that the Habs are inconsistent, I am tired of hearing people complain how they blow leads, I am tired of hearing that we should bring up Kostitsyn/Lapierre/O'Byrne.

So if you don't want to hear people whine, then a messageboard is probably not the best place to hang when the team is losing. It is what it is.

[Wamsley01]

Well, I guess I would exclude myself then since I havent been disrespectful to anyone. I too will continue to give an opinion, even if it is to defend Koivu against nonsense posts...and I would agree with you on the attitude that I dont give a shit if that bothers anyone (including you).

Just have to point out one more thing. The last sentence of your quote here kinda sounds like you're describing yourself when you look at the paragraph you typed in the very same post. I guess we all get tired of hearing people whine sometimes eh?

We all whine on this board. All of us.

I really don't mind the whining though. Especially for me living in Toronto, I have nobody but my dad to whine to.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Wamsley01

[CBHabs_fan]

We all whine on this board. All of us.

I really don't mind the whining though. Especially for me living in Toronto, I have nobody but my dad to whine to.

You mean the Leaf Nation doesnt empathize and agree with all of our all of our gripes? lol

I am surrounded by Leaf fans/media/propaganda here. I cant even imagine the crap you must have to gag on.

Speaking of Leaf nation, I probably wont be on for a while, as I'll be heading to Montreal tomorrow and catching Habs/Leafs next saturday night. Should be a great game, and I'm really hoping for a good night.

[ShortHanded]

We have all seen glimpses of Saks when he gets hot. He scared the shit out of Carolina in that 1st round until he got injured. The last few years when we did make the play-offs we were beat by the team that ended up winning it all. When we came back from Boston Saks led us. He's played 43 play-off games and has 36 points....+11. One of those years he spent the season doing radiation and didn't miss a beat when he came back. Maybe the numbers aren't high enough for you but I can't help wondering how far we could go with a little support for this guy. HE HAS NEVER.............NEVER HAD IT.

So just before anyone considers trading him I would like to see some help brought in to compliment him. That would be a better, productive direction, if we want a Stanley Cup.

I'd rather have Marleau and Koivu.......we could become contenders that way. Just Marleau? forget about it and watch San Jose go and get the cup. Well maybe not because of the big CHOKER THORTON is there.

very well said Saks-ave. This is basically how I feel too.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I hope no one's gotten the wrong idea; I love Koivu. But based on what I know about Marleau, I would probably trade him for Marleau, for the reasons I've elaborated upon. Nonetheless, I'd rather have Marleau and Koivu as well. For God's sake, who wouldn't? (But I think San Jose would be more likely to do marleau-Koivu than Marleau for, say, Ryder and whoever).

[Habsy]

The point is moot, though. You can't.

A NTC in no way means a player can't be traded. He just has to agree to it. If Saku is offered a chance to play for a winner, why wouldn't he? What's troubling for me though, is, Pierre McGuire. He was asked on Montreal radio what he thought the team could potentially get for Koivu. He said a high draft choice, that's it. NO THANK YOU!!. We don't need a another defensive-defenceman from the U.S. college system. If that's the case, let'em finish his career here.

[sbhatt]

I'd take a first-rounder for him at this point, if I had another deal in place to land a new first-line centre...this team is sucking pond water.

[MAK]

being there tonight, I founf that Koivu look totally uninterrested. he looked like a guy thats only waiting to be trade. dumb penalty, showed little effort, looked frustrated..

[SAKS-AVENUE]

I say stick to the plan. Move a few people...Ryder? Huet? when there seems to be a helping return. Later in the year. Keep pushing hard to win.

The standings are tight. ALL TEAMS ARE EVEN.............ALL. No-one wants to trade anybody. We are just focusing on the HABS too much in a league where they can't be expected to win as much as we want them to.

Carolina couldn't buy a win a few weeks ago. Toronto had a great week soon to be followed by bad. Ottawa looked like washington a week ago.

We just need to focus on getting better and put a few wins togther and stay in the race. Each week we could find ourselves in first, second or 12th.

IT'S TIGHT. We're young! and improving. There is no greener grass with Marleau, Ovechkin, or Crosby, or Vinny..............

Gainey and Carbo will get the boys going

[Habsfan84]

I can never see the Habs trading away ther captain but i think that he should be. He doesnt play good very much it seems to me at least.

[KoZed]

As much as I've been a critic of Koivu lately, I think there is a HUGE step between pointing out his struggles and shipping him out of town.

I've seen this happen with other Habs before: they hit a rough patch, people think they're finished and they manage to revive their career elsewhere: Chelios, Carbo, Roy... Just look at Kovy and how he bounced back this season.

So I'd say no, it's not time to trade Koivu. Even if age might have caught up with him and he's perhaps in the declining side of his career, he still has good hockey in him and can still be useful to the team as a 2nd C.

[Punkned]

The real question is: does Saku want to stay in Montreal or, as he said at the end of the last season, would he prefer to play for a winning team?

[Fanpuck33]

I can never see the Habs trading away ther captain

That's pretty funny. Our four capatains prior to Koivu:

Vincent Damphousse: Traded to SJ

Pierre Turgeon: Traded to STL

Mike Keane: Traded to COL

Kirk Muller: Traded to NYI