JCPetit Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 The best goalies avg above 2.00 GAA, if the team cannot give their goalies over 2.00 GAA, then they will not win, offense is the problem, not goaltending. Blaming goaltending is just smoke and mirrors hiding the real problem. I agree with that. From time to time, you goalie will look a little off. Even the best ones have so, so games. The problem with the Habs is that our young goalies are not allowed to be human. If we had a regular offense, with an effective power play, Price would have felt more confident and would have looked better. Our goalies are not the problem. We need offense, and better play in our defensive zone. That's fixable and I am confident that the coaches will find the cure. Let's be patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 This game was a replay of the one against Atlanta: we allow the first goal, then a 2nd, we score to get back into it and Price allows an iffy 3rd goal that saps the team's morale and breaks our momentum. The difference this game was that our offense couldnt keep coming back from behind. You can bitch and whine about the D-men to try to absolve Price from the blame. It's true a good defense makes a goalie look good, but so is the inverse. Theodore won a Vezina and Hart and brought us in the playoffs on his back playing behind Brisebois, Rivet, Dykhuis, Quintal, Souray and such. Not exactly a bunch of Rod Langways there. Fact is, Price has a knack for allowing the back-breaking goal when he should be buckling down. There's the difference right there. You can't always have to score 4, 5, 6 goals every night to win. Martin's defensive system becomes nil if Price can't make the saves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Martin's defensive system becomes nil if Price can't make the saves. Sorry, but you can't expect your goaltender to continuously make highlight reel saves. It's unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Fact is, Price has a knack for allowing the back-breaking goal when he should be buckling down. There's the difference right there. You can't always have to score 4, 5, 6 goals every night to win. Martin's defensive system becomes nil if Price can't make the saves. Exactly, thats what I was referring to weeks ago when I said whenever a habs makes a mistake its basically a goal every time. Its rare for Price to make a crucial save when one of his teammates makes a glaring error - this is even true when the error happens in the other teams zone ffs. i.e. think of the breakaway the one guy had when 1 of the Habs at the other teams blue lost the puck, buddy could have easily slid a beach ball through Prices 5 hole. :puke: In Prices defense last game for the 1st time going back to last years reg season that Price made a crucial save when a teammate made a mistake. Price needs to make these kinds of saves routinely. Its not that Price lets in to many bad goals, its that he lets in to many bad goals at the worst possible times. The majority of the easy goals Price lets in are completely demoralizing to the team. Think of Roy, sure he let in his fair share of bad goals, but they werent game killing bad goals. When Roys teammates made big mistakes, he made huge saves over 90% of the time. Over 90% of the time Price allows goals on his teammates mistakes. Think of this: WHen Roy would allow a bad goal his team would score several times in a 5-10 min period to have his back and make up for Roys mistake, as a thank you to him for bailing them out when they make mistakes. Price and the Habs have no relationship like that at all and they certainly need it. Price either needs to start making big saves at crucial times especially when his teammates make mistakes, or the entire team has to play absolutely flawlessly for the Habs to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Think of this: WHen Roy would allow a bad goal his team would score several times in a 5-10 min period to have his back and make up for Roys mistake, as a thank you to him for bailing them out when they make mistakes. Consider this: if there were no goalie at the other end, the Habs would probably still get outscored..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Exactly, thats what I was referring to weeks ago when I said whenever a habs makes a mistake its basically a goal every time. Its rare for Price to make a crucial save when one of his teammates makes a glaring error - this is even true when the error happens in the other teams zone ffs. i.e. think of the breakaway the one guy had when 1 of the Habs at the other teams blue lost the puck, buddy could have easily slid a beach ball through Prices 5 hole. :puke: In Prices defense last game for the 1st time going back to last years reg season that Price made a crucial save when a teammate made a mistake. Price needs to make these kinds of saves routinely. Its not that Price lets in to many bad goals, its that he lets in to many bad goals at the worst possible times. The majority of the easy goals Price lets in are completely demoralizing to the team. Think of Roy, sure he let in his fair share of bad goals, but they werent game killing bad goals. When Roys teammates made big mistakes, he made huge saves over 90% of the time. Over 90% of the time Price allows goals on his teammates mistakes. Think of this: WHen Roy would allow a bad goal his team would score several times in a 5-10 min period to have his back and make up for Roys mistake, as a thank you to him for bailing them out when they make mistakes. Price and the Habs have no relationship like that at all and they certainly need it. Price either needs to start making big saves at crucial times especially when his teammates make mistakes, or the entire team has to play absolutely flawlessly for the Habs to win. Thats what worries me about Price more then Halak. Price has let in bad goals at the worst time. Although it doesn't help when the damn offence can't score more then 1 goal a game outside of the shootout. But with all of the talk all summer from all of the Martin supporters that Price would be insulated by a much better system and a tighter defence, where the hell is the tighter defence and what exactly is Martin's system???? I haven't seen a hell of a lot of progression if he does have a system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Price's bad goaltending is caused by a bad team in front of him, goaltending and the other five skaters are part of the same equation. If, Hamrlik defends against Tanguays stick, there is no second goal, if Gorges doesn't go crashing into the net there is no third goal (potentially). You cannot just look at highlights and stats to get a true picture. Even if Price played amazing, the fact remains we cannot score goals. We pay the top 3 a LOT of cap space to score and they really aren't producing lately. Ummm, sorry, but there's no way Hamrlik expects a rebound like that on a harmless shot. Even the Price supporters will admit that was a lame goal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) I'm getting a major headache just reading all these posts blaming Price. Seriously, how the hell can you fault Price for ANY of those goals. Well, you can't. Let me take you by the hand an walk you through each goal. Goal 1: Ryan Malone is left alone in the low slot. Price has got to slide over to even have a chance to stop it. The first stop is miraculously made by Price or his defender, it's not clear from the nhl.com replay but in any case the puck goes right back onto Malone's stick who roofs it. Goal 2: Tanguay walks right in past the defender at full speed and gets a lucky bounce. Goal 3: Price has got to cover a 2-1. Naturally, he has to cover boss possibilities of a shot or a pass, so when the pass comes it's IMPOSSIBLE to be in perfect position. But nonetheless he makes the slide over, somehow get's a piece of it, it bounces off the post, gets tangled up in in the collision in front of the net and squirts out in behind. Like HOW can you say this goal is Price's fault?! It makes no sense. You can't fault him on it. You just can't. Period. So basically what you are asking Price to do is be perfect in all circumstances. Very reasonable indeed. Sure, I'm sure each of those goals could have been stopped, but it would have taken miracle saves, which you can't rely on your goaltender to make. If your goaltender is in a situation where he has to make one, it means your team has given the other a good chance. Who's fault is that? Is it Price's fault that Ryan Malone was left to stand alone in the low slot? Is it Price's fault that Tanguay got in behind the D? Was it Price's fault he had to face a 2 on 1 on the 3rd goal? Not that I'm saying I expect the defense to be immaculate but that's just the nature of the game. Players will make mistakes, and other players will capitalize on them. The problem is that all of you, most of whom have probably never strapped on a skate much less put on a pair of goalie pads, have to find a reason for EVERY mistake. Everything has to be analyzed and analyzed again. It sure is easy when you have a bird's eye view of the ice and are in the no pressure situation of sitting in an armchair but I can tell you things are different on the ice. If you think that luck isn't part of the game, well then you just don't know hockey. Edited November 8, 2009 by ForumGhost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 But with all of the talk all summer from all of the Martin supporters that Price would be insulated by a much better system and a tighter defence, where the hell is the tighter defence and what exactly is Martin's system???? I haven't seen a hell of a lot of progression if he does have a system. I have noticed a system. We tend to keep more possession of the puck than last year, and we're much more organized coming out of our zone. I originally didn't like the signing of Martin, but he has impressed me this year. We need to get decent goaltending. We need to get our injured players back. These 2 factors are not Martin's fault... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Ummm, sorry, but there's no way Hamrlik expects a rebound like that on a harmless shot. Even the Price supporters will admit that was a lame goal... Hamrlik let Tanguay in behind him though. He wasn't covering his man. But like I said, I can't expect Hamrlik to be perfect. It was a lucky goal. But, if you HAVE to assign blame somewhere, which you obviously do, it will be going to Hamrlik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Goal 1: Ryan Malone is left alone in the low slot. Price has got to slide over to even have a chance to stop it. The first stop is miraculously made by Price or his defender, it's not clear from the nhl.com replay but in any case the puck goes right back onto Malone's stick who roofs it. No clue what your talking aboot. Malone shoots, its blocked by Gorges, and Malone gets the puck back, shoots again and hits the crossbar, the puck drops and Price kicks it in with his leg. Thats right, Price scored that goal, he was the last person to touch it. The puck wasnt going in before Price kicked it into the net, the puck didnt have the momentum to hit Prices leg and go back towards the goal line if Price hadnt made a backwards kicking motion. Watch: http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip232769#clip232769 at 20 seconds when it shows the overhead angle. Nothing Price could do? How aboot not kicking the puck into the net, I'm pretty sure that would have worked. Sure its an "unfortunate" goal, but most of Prices goals are "unfortunate", thats the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Here's a thought to consider: Sometimes the opposition just scores a great goal and there is no blame to be assigned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Thats what worries me about Price more then Halak. Price has let in bad goals at the worst time. Although it doesn't help when the damn offence can't score more then 1 goal a game outside of the shootout. We scored 4 last Tuesday and still lost. Tonight, Antero made the big saves, Carey didnt. Yes, it comes down to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han_dyl Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Here's a thought to consider: Sometimes the opposition just scores a great goal and there is no blame to be assigned. What is this witchcraft you speak of?!?!?! I thought every goal against, loss, penalty, and offside call was supposed to be Prices fault. But seriously this team has a lot more problems besides goaltending to deal with. How about the 2 goals in the last 6 periods? Why is it this team seems to make every goaltender they face seem like the second coming of Jaques Plante? Every other team seems to have figured out Pavelec in Atlanta. Why did he stone us twice? Why can't the forwards force the opposition to take a penalty when we have a little sustained pressure in their zone? There was the game against Calgary where we didn't have a powerplay at all, and besides tonight there have been a few other times this year where we have only had one or two. And why is it our defense can't complete a pass, get a shot through from the point, or tie up a forward in front of the net? I mean other teams have no problem doing it. Can our D really be that much worse than the average team in the league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Boagalott Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Here's a thought to consider: Sometimes the opposition just scores a great goal and there is no blame to be assigned. Thats absolutely true. The nets fairly big compared to how much of it the goalie takes up. There are perfect shots that will handcuff the goalies and theres nothing a goalie can do. 1 goal tonight might be considered a perfect shot. The Price lovers are on crack if they think the Price nay sayers expect a 0.00 GAA. Kozed is absolutely right, Nittymaki stole this game for them. The Habs forwards totally out played and out chanced TB, the difference was the goaltending. Ironically, have the Habs actually won a game this year when they have out shot the opposition by a large margin? I dont think they have. Most games the Habs goalie gets shelled they win, but when they shell the other goalie they seem to loose. Its perplexing only being able to win when grossly out shot. Edited November 8, 2009 by Sir_Boagalott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han_dyl Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 We scored 4 last Tuesday and still lost. Tonight, Antero made the big saves, Carey didnt. Yes, it comes down to that. You could use that logic for almost every game that has ever been played. Obviously the loosing goaltender didn't make the saves he needed to, because he lost! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I wish wamsley would come on here more. I mean Price looked good. Nitty looked great. Price DID get the pad over on the rebound before Malone shelfed it. Plek was standing there looking at him. No urgency at all. The rebound was super juicy on the Tanguay goal. Our other goalie lets out 10 times more rebounds than that. If I was going to say Price let in a soft one, it was due to that rebound. The third goal... He should have got his glove on it. Ya he would have if gorges hadn't knocked his hand away. I am really sick of goalies getting blamed for our defensive ineptitude. I shit my pants every time one of our D has the puck in our zone. Even when we have 4 back and one of their guys is in as a forechecker, because chances are they will giveaway the puck and the other team will have time to set up for a nice scoring chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 1. Price got outgoaltended. We won't win when that happens. What's the point of "defending" someone who is being outplayed by his opposite number far more often than the reverse? If Gomez is being outplayed by *his* matchup and goes -3 on the night, nobody makes excuses for him. Price needs to be as good or better than the goalie at the other end, on a nightly basis. This isn't "blaming" Price, but apologizing for him strikes me as lame. Once you stop evaluating his play according to some abstract standard and instead measure him against the other goalie on the ice, you realize that he hasn't been what he needs to be - except for that great Boston game. Did we get outgoaltended or does our weak offense make opposing goalies look great and our horrible defense make our goalies look bad? Price is in no competition with the goalie at the other end, he's in competition with the opposing skaters. There's even less he can do about the other goalie robbing our 9 third line forwards than he can about Bergeron's latest giveaway. Last night he played well, but the second goal was lame (and he is still oversliiiding). We lost because Tampa Bay outplayed us. Sure, Price COULD have made a couple of game-breaking saves and kept it at 1-1. Just like Gomez COULD have went on a tear and scored a hat trick for the 4-3 win. But we can't expect a single player to be our knight in shining armour every game. If we require amazing goaltending every night, then we are a bad team and aren't going anywhere fast anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I wish wamsley would come on here more. I mean Price looked good. Nitty looked great. Price DID get the pad over on the rebound before Malone shelfed it. Plek was standing there looking at him. No urgency at all. The rebound was super juicy on the Tanguay goal. Our other goalie lets out 10 times more rebounds than that. If I was going to say Price let in a soft one, it was due to that rebound. The third goal... He should have got his glove on it. Ya he would have if gorges hadn't knocked his hand away. I am really sick of goalies getting blamed for our defensive ineptitude. I shit my pants every time one of our D has the puck in our zone. Even when we have 4 back and one of their guys is in as a forechecker, because chances are they will giveaway the puck and the other team will have time to set up for a nice scoring chance. People do over rotate on the goalies, but they have been pretty average. Unfortunately, teams don't go very far in this league without a goalie at the top of the league. Pitts with all their firepower were dragging along until Fleury got his act together. Then they became a top team. Osgood is killing Detroit, but if he was on our team it would be the team's fault I suppose. Price is now 10-32 in his last 42 starts. Halak has been above .500. Now this is not meant to be a Price vs Halak thing, since I think Halak is also nothing special right now. The point is that if if is just the team, the two goalies would not be so dramatically different. For what ever reason, this team struggles to win with Price in net. I am sure some of that is a bad team and maybe a lack of confidence in Price, but some of it is PRICE! Our D did not let out an inordinate bunch of chances last night. I don't think our defense is as brutal as people make out. People seem to ignore all the defensive breakdowns the other team makes, yet their goalie seems to bail them out more then our goalie bails them out. Look at Toronto. Their defense was looking brutal. Now that they are getting goaltending, suddenly their defense looks better and the forwards are taking more offensive risks. I completely agree that we have two problems right now. A huge lack of offense and mediocre goaltending. It is not one or the other, it is both, which is why it is going to be a damn long season. Sure we only got one goal, which is not enough to win, but last night we would have needed 4 goals to win. Not easy with one line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 No clue what your talking aboot. Malone shoots, its blocked by Gorges, and Malone gets the puck back, shoots again and hits the crossbar, the puck drops and Price kicks it in with his leg. Thats right, Price scored that goal, he was the last person to touch it. The puck wasnt going in before Price kicked it into the net, the puck didnt have the momentum to hit Prices leg and go back towards the goal line if Price hadnt made a backwards kicking motion. Watch: http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip232769#clip232769 at 20 seconds when it shows the overhead angle. Nothing Price could do? How aboot not kicking the puck into the net, I'm pretty sure that would have worked. Sure its an "unfortunate" goal, but most of Prices goals are "unfortunate", thats the problem. Ughhh my heeeaaad. The puck was already behind Price. How on EARTH is he supposed to there is a puck sitting on the goal line behind him?! I know everyone likes to get all hot and bothered when they think about Roy, but not even he has eyes in the back of his head. Even if he did, his helmet would be covering them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Ughhh my heeeaaad. The puck was already behind Price. How on EARTH is he supposed to there is a puck sitting on the goal line behind him?! I know everyone likes to get all hot and bothered when they think about Roy, but not even he has eyes in the back of his head. Even if he did, his helmet would be covering them. Roy threw a puck into his own net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haboholic Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I never post here... i just read them. But man, ive never seen people with such short term memory (this obviously doesnt apply to everyone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Did we get outgoaltended or does our weak offense make opposing goalies look great and our horrible defense make our goalies look bad? Price is in no competition with the goalie at the other end, he's in competition with the opposing skaters. There's even less he can do about the other goalie robbing our 9 third line forwards than he can about Bergeron's latest giveaway. Last night he played well, but the second goal was lame (and he is still oversliiiding). We lost because Tampa Bay outplayed us. Sure, Price COULD have made a couple of game-breaking saves and kept it at 1-1. Just like Gomez COULD have went on a tear and scored a hat trick for the 4-3 win. But we can't expect a single player to be our knight in shining armour every game. If we require amazing goaltending every night, then we are a bad team and aren't going anywhere fast anyway. You're absolutely right. The team scored one goal. I guess to make people happy on this board, Carey has to throw a shutout every game. Let's just say one of last nights goals was weak. Then he allowed 2 acceptable goals?? Allowing 2 goals per game puts you into the Hall of Fame. Ya, I'm spinning here, but I'm trying to make a point. It's way to easy to blame goaltending. And to repeat what Han Dyl stated earlier, we made another goalie look like Jacques Plante. When you score one goal, on home ice, on saturday night, no goalie can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 We scored 4 last Tuesday and still lost. Tonight, Antero made the big saves, Carey didnt. Yes, it comes down to that. Agreed. This is simply common sense. It flabbergasts me that some people simply can't see this. (I guess the use of the word "flabbergasts" dates me, doesn't it? :-) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Price's saves don't show up, there's no 'big save' stat. Go back and watch the game, there was big saves by Price to limit the goals against, that is common sense, I can't believe the Price haters are this blind, you think with Jaro 'I give up tons of rebounds' Halak, the game would have been any different? I like Halak, but his rebound control is shit. The goaltenders cannot score goals for this team, but you know lets blame the goalies, thats easy. Instead of looking at the real reasons, we can huff out chests and make ourselves feel better, cause the problem is JUST the goaltending. Price will leave town, much like Roy, come back to haunt us, and we can bitch and complain how we never have franchise players. Can you imagine the pressure knowing as a goalie, that with this anemic offense, that if he lets in one or two goals the team is going to lose? Can you imagine the stress that would cause even the most hardened vet. To know the fans as just waiting for one slip up so they can roast you, and say they were right to doubt you all along. I am sometimes embarrassed to call myself a habs fan, knowing what we do to players. Edited November 8, 2009 by bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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