[Game Thread] Canadiens vs Lightning - 7/11/2009

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Obviously, there will be no final agreement on this. I don't think Price has been horrible and there's no question that on a team that plays hermetic D he'd seem just fine. To me, this puts him about on the level of a Chris Osgood. Except that if Chris Osgood were our goalie there wouldn't be an army of defenders attacking you for pointing out the obvious: he hasn't been good enough.

Let's just start with this phenomenon of one bad goal per game. Well, duh - that's the difference between winning and losing, especially when the bad goal is let in at a soul-crushing time, like when the team is surging toward a comeback. Sure, I'd like the Habs to have enough offence that it's NOT the difference. But it is. And - here's the kicker - most teams have goalies who don't let in a bad goal every game. Certainly this is true of the winning teams (Detroit excepted). I dunno, this just seems obvious to me.

Now, is Price "to blame" for our mediocre team results so far? This is asking whether he's the team's only weakness. Obviously he's not. We also have a shaky defence and a dearth of secondary scoring. But Price has been part of the problem. How anyone can be blind to this is beyond me.

[bar]

I'm not saying Price has been perfect, he hasn't he's been ok. When defense screw up and put a goalie in a no-save opportunity the stat shows up on the goalies save % and GAA. I'm trying to say that stats aren't the be all end all. There can be just good goals, the other team can just play well. There needs to be more TEAM accountability, instead of crushing an already crushed goalie tandem, who avg 23 years of age by the way, in the hardest goalie market IN THE WORLD.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm not saying Price has been perfect, he hasn't he's been ok. When defense screw up and put a goalie in a no-save opportunity the stat shows up on the goalies save % and GAA. I'm trying to say that stats aren't the be all end all. There can be just good goals, the other team can just play well. There needs to be more TEAM accountability, instead of crushing an already crushed goalie tandem, who avg 23 years of age by the way, in the hardest goalie market IN THE WORLD.

Well, as I say, the goaltending is part of the problem, not the whole problem. I don't consider myself part of the crew that's anointed Price the whipping-boy, but I also refuse to jump on this bandwagon of Price mollycoddlers. He's not been good enough for this team; and he's been worse than most #1 goalies in the NHL. Point finale.

I'd note that my original post on this ALSO made a point of corruscating all the young players who could reasonably be asked to take advantage of the opportunity on this club to play in the top six. This is a glaring failure and even more frustrating than Price's mediocrity in my books (partly because it is a microcosm of the abysmal Gainey track record in developing young players).

And then there's the D...but at least they have the partial excuse of injury.

[KEEP26]

it dont matter if we got the best goalie in the nhl on our team when in 2 games you only score 2 goals..its hard to win these games..hockey is a team sport and to win you need a good team..not just a great goalie..you could be the best goalie in the world and if the team in front of you sucks..your going to loss

[jackp]

it dont matter if we got the best goalie in the nhl on our team when in 2 games you only score 2 goals..its hard to win these games..hockey is a team sport and to win you need a good team..not just a great goalie..you could be the best goalie in the world and if the team in front of you sucks..your going to loss

We didn't suck last night. We got stoned by a hot goalie who has already stoned 2 other teams in his last 2 games apparently...

[redondo]

We didn't suck last night. We got stoned by a hot goalie who has already stoned 2 other teams in his last 2 games apparently...

True, I also thought we played good for stretches. But those eventually have to start going in, the same way that on the other end some of those bailout saves have to be made - we're not good enough to give ANYTHING away at this point in time. Not scoring on 5 on 5 all night is unacceptable, I honestly don't understand what Sergei Kostitsyn is still doing in Hamilton when we need secondary scoring. Or someone. Plus I suspect that having Plex play out the contract season with no NHL-caliber wingers is NOT the way to get him to re-sign either.

[Habsy]

Agreed. This is simply common sense. It flabbergasts me that some people simply can't see this.

(I guess the use of the word "flabbergasts" dates me, doesn't it? :-) )

I suggest you don't use the term common sense. The team scored ONE goal against Tampa, and ONE goal against Boston. I don't see anybody on this board suggesting Carey Price is getting an invitation to Team Canada, nor is he going to be anywhere near a Vezina trophy this season. Now tell us all again how you were in the Forum during the 70's, and spend the afternoon researching stats on goaltending, so you can regurgitate them for us later, stats we all know anyway.

[JoeLassister]

This game was a replay of the one against Atlanta: we allow the first goal, then a 2nd, we score to get back into it and Price allows an iffy 3rd goal that saps the team's morale and breaks our momentum. The difference this game was that our offense couldnt keep coming back from behind.

You can bitch and whine about the D-men to try to absolve Price from the blame. It's true a good defense makes a goalie look good, but so is the inverse. Theodore won a Vezina and Hart and brought us in the playoffs on his back playing behind Brisebois, Rivet, Dykhuis, Quintal, Souray and such. Not exactly a bunch of Rod Langways there.

Fact is, Price has a knack for allowing the back-breaking goal when he should be buckling down. There's the difference right there. You can't always have to score 4, 5, 6 goals every night to win. Martin's defensive system becomes nil if Price can't make the saves.

I guess everyone can see that how he wants because, personaly, I'd say " We score to get back into it and a dman makes a crappy pinch move and the Bolts develop a 2 on 1 that will lead to the goal..."

[Habsy]

Kozed, I'll go ahead and use your term. You're bitching and whining about a bad goal. And we're all going around in circles. Let's consider coach Martin, he woke up this morning, is goaltending his biggest cause for concern?? I have my doubts.

[BCHabnut]

Kozed, I'll go ahead and use your term. You're bitching and whining about a bad goal. And we're all going around in circles. Let's consider coach Martin, he woke up this morning, is goaltending his biggest cause for concern?? I have my doubts.

Ahh,

there is a good way of looking at it. I can almost guarentee that Halak will get the next start if he is healthy, so goaltending is a concern, we all know it is, but is it his biggest concern? I highly doubt it. Figuring out a way for the oompa loompas to get past a collapsing D, getting a true second line scoring line, and our pathetic D are probably more important at this time. That is why I question why every game thread with a loss has 2 pages about goaltenders. At this point, there is no sence pointing at one player.

WE DON'T HAVE GOOD ENOUGH GOALIES TO STEAL EVERY GAME! Deal with it. It's really agravating to come on here and see one guy singled out all of the time, when the team plays like a mountain of moose shit!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Ahh,

there is a good way of looking at it. I can almost guarentee that Halak will get the next start if he is healthy, so goaltending is a concern, we all know it is, but is it his biggest concern? I highly doubt it. Figuring out a way for the oompa loompas to get past a collapsing D, getting a true second line scoring line, and our pathetic D are probably more important at this time. That is why I question why every game thread with a loss has 2 pages about goaltenders. At this point, there is no sence pointing at one player.

WE DON'T HAVE GOOD ENOUGH GOALIES TO STEAL EVERY GAME! Deal with it. It's really agravating to come on here and see one guy singled out all of the time, when the team plays like a mountain of moose shit!

Fair enough. Frankly, just about the only "NAME" players I'm happy with are Pleks and Cammy. Gomez and Gionta have had their moments, but their production has simply been too low. (I think Gomez can do more; Gionta is probably at maximum). Hamrlik has done well but seems to be flagging under the pressure. Somebody, somehow, on this team has simply got to raise their game. It could be Price; Halak; Gomez; Kostitysn; Pacioretty; Latendresse; Spacek - I don't care who it is, but we either need one individual to start making an impact more often and on a regular basis, or we need a series of small improvements from a bunch of players (which I frankly find less likely than the other scenario).

And fer chrissakes call up Sergei Kostitsyn. The statement`s been made, and we no longer have the luxury of depriving ourselves of his speed and skill.

[ehjay]

Fair enough. Frankly, just about the only "NAME" players I'm happy with are Pleks and Cammy. Gomez and Gionta have had their moments, but their production has simply been too low. (I think Gomez can do more; Gionta is probably at maximum). Hamrlik has done well but seems to be flagging under the pressure. Somebody, somehow, on this team has simply got to raise their game. It could be Price; Halak; Gomez; Kostitysn; Pacioretty; Latendresse; Spacek - I don't care who it is, but we either need one individual to start making an impact more often and on a regular basis, or we need a series of small improvements from a bunch of players (which I frankly find less likely than the other scenario).

And fer chrissakes call up Sergei Kostitsyn. The statement`s been made, and we no longer have the luxury of depriving ourselves of his speed and skill.

I will start with to you Chicoutimi Cucumber and BCHabnut.

good points from the two of youz, very fun to read

yet I feel most fans just want this team to go now,

I think most of us have put skates on and if not played some ball hockey, and

we all here at HW truly know what GO! is about.

In other words: I really don't care if it is SK74 up, or AK46 who starts to remember that he isn't who ever he thinks he is on the ice, OR ...

Come on GUYS (on the ice)! GO THE F%$# ALREADY!!!!!

I think the term they used on the ice last year was: are you alive?

Can we now change it to: GO TIME (RAH! RAH!! RAH!!!) ?

and if we do... PLEASE some one tell them (on the ice) remove the: ?, at the end of the chant

GO! :hlogo: GO!

[Chips]

....

......

WE DON'T HAVE GOOD ENOUGH GOALIES TO STEAL EVERY GAME! Deal with it. It's really agravating to come on here and see one guy singled out all of the time, when the team plays like a mountain of moose shit!

" moose shit! " love it!

cow dung and moose shit all over the place... we need to play as a team and with cohesion. lets see how the lads respond in our next venture.

GO HABS GO!

[KoZed]

I have the solution: Eric Neilsen!

[Sir_Boagalott]

Ughhh my heeeaaad.

The puck was already behind Price. How on EARTH is he supposed to there is a puck sitting on the goal line behind him?! I know everyone likes to get all hot and bothered when they think about Roy, but not even he has eyes in the back of his head. Even if he did, his helmet would be covering them.

Ugg, my head hurts.

umm, ya, when you see the puck get shot past you, and its not in the net and its no longer in front of you, where do you think the puck might possibly be?

C'mon, its not rocket science.

Now that you've seen the clip I posted which clearly shows that it was indeed Price who scored the Malone goal you still feel the need to blame anybody other than the one who scored the goal. Priceless.

[ForumGhost]

Wow. Price was on the ice from the full slide, Malone is standing 3 feet away, shoots once, it get's blocked, shoots twice, a perfect laser, nails the bottom side of the cross bar. Where the f&@# do you think it's going to end up one way or another?! It might have well just gone in! It's not like it was sitting on the red line for any extended period of time. It was on the ice for a millisecond before Price knocked it in. And please, I beg you, explain how Price could have not only known where it was (goalies don't have goal lights in their helmets, btw), but not knocked it in anyways because obviously he was going to have to get up and regain his positioning sooner or later! Go ahead, I dare you.

If you let a sniper like Malone stand 3 feet in front of the net long enough to get 2 quality shots, than it's not the goalie's fault. I honestly feel embarrassed just having to explain this to you as though it isn't common sense.

Edited November 9, 2009 by ForumGhost

[Chris]

Yea, i figured if 1 of the 4 habs standign around watching Malone would have jsut hit him, then maybe something else happens.

I'm still not sure the PK system, it appears to be stand around and let the other team do what they want until they score.

The habs need to start drawing some penalties, they get like 1-2 a game, it's because they NEVER GO TO THE NET. What is the obsession with getting speed into the zone, doing a fly by behind the net followed by a turnover, you don't score like that.

I guess there is always next game.

[bar]

Hmm I'm liking the PK this year more than last year, they seem to be challenging the other teams D at the point causing some turn overs, it's risky that you gotta have confidence in your remaining two players to cover their area.

[jackp]

I suggest you don't use the term common sense. The team scored ONE goal against Tampa, and ONE goal against Boston. I don't see anybody on this board suggesting Carey Price is getting an invitation to Team Canada, nor is he going to be anywhere near a Vezina trophy this season. Now tell us all again how you were in the Forum during the 70's, and spend the afternoon researching stats on goaltending, so you can regurgitate them for us later, stats we all know anyway.

Okay, instead of "common sense," how about "pure logic?"

And please accept my sincere sympathy for the Alzheimers you seem to be suffering from with your need for me to "regurgitate" facts which have already been presented. (Didn't take all afternoon, BTW - took 5 minutes - there's a remarkable Internet device called "google." You should try it sometime.)

As for the "stats we all know" part... you know them, but choose to ignore them. I guess *facts* make people living in fantasyland uncomfortable.

(Of course, now I'll be criticized for getting personal by some, conveniently ignoring the content of the message from Habsy which prompted this reply.)

[bar]

Stats can be a weapon in the hands of those that choose to use them. You can skew stats anyway you want, you have to look behind the stats not merely beat people over the head with them.

Edited November 9, 2009 by bar

[jackp]

Stats can be a weapon in the hands of those that choose to use them. You can skew stats anyway you want, you have to look behind the stats not merely beat people over the head with them.

While this is certainly true in many cases, let me ask you a simple question: How many times have you seen a goalie's save percentage and GAA be bad, and you could say, "No, this goalie's really quite good, and the stat's misleading?"

Rarely, right? It's like a pitcher's ERA and opposition batting average. These particular numbers don't lie.

Look I've praised Price in the past. (Read my posts about him after the Boston game, for example.) But something's happened to him. I don't know what. He's not the same guy who won the Jr. Team Canada shootout and the Calder Cup. There have been many different theories. Cherry says it was the All-Star game.

I have my own theory. After the Boston series 2 years ago, the reporters kept comparing him to Patrick Roy and his rookie year. Price kept saying, "I'm not Patrick Roy," with a really uncomfortable look on his face. I think those reporters put unbearable pressure on him. It did not surprise me when he stunk in the following Philly series - the enormity of what was going on was brought home to him in the worst way possible. There's too much pressure for him to succeed here. Sadly, I think he may achieve the stardom some are predicting if he gets away from the pressure cooker that is Montreal.

[Sir_Boagalott]

Wow. Price was on the ice from the full slide, Malone is standing 3 feet away, shoots once, it get's blocked, shoots twice, a perfect laser, nails the bottom side of the cross bar. Where the f&@# do you think it's going to end up one way or another?! It might have well just gone in! It's not like it was sitting on the red line for any extended period of time. It was on the ice for a millisecond before Price knocked it in.

If you let a sniper like Malone stand 3 feet in front of the net long enough to get 2 quality shots, than it's not the goalie's fault. I honestly feel embarrassed just having to explain this to you as though it isn't common sense.

Your insane. You insist Price does nothing wrong ever so your excuses for Price scoring the goal drasically change with every new reply from you.

Now you claiming Malone will be in contention for the Rocket trophy, nothing Price could do. Malone hit the crossbar square, thats why it fell forwad. If it hit like you said it would have deflected into the net. 2 quality shots from Richard winning Malone eh? Why did Malones 1st shot hit Gorges thigh? and the 2nd hits the crossbar dead on? Great shots?

Price was all over making the 1st 2 saves, BS, Gorges did, and the cross bar did. The only time Price makes contact with the puck is when he kicks it into his own net.

I beg you, explain how Price could have not only known where it was (goalies don't have goal lights in their helmets, btw), but not knocked it in anyways because obviously he was going to have to get up and regain his positioning sooner or later! Go ahead, I dare you.

I already explained that if the puck is shot past you and its no longer in front of you and its not in the net then its most likely behind you. Its not rocket science. Hasek was the King of flopping around but he didnt make backwards flopping motions because he knew it would knock any loose pucks that were behind him into the net. Its pretty simple. Price would have regained his positioning like any other goalie does when the whistle is blown after a save is made. All Price had to do is what any NHL caliber goalie would have done: simply reach behind him over the goal line and pull their arm forward to their side so the puck is covered and a stop is made.

If a inanimate carbide rod had have been in the net on the Malone goal it wouldnt have been a goal. Its scary is because its actually true.

I bet according to you was Kevin Bacon wasnt in Footloose

Edited November 10, 2009 by Sir_Boagalott

[Colin]

...

Of all the goals on which to make a stand, you're choosing the one which was essentially a goalmouth scramble? Did he put it in on his own? Sure. But every goalie in the league allows stupid ones like that. If you're going to take a stand, do it on the third goal where a better save wouldn't have let the puck come close to the goal line. I'm not taking sides in the "Price is good, NO he's useless" argument, I just think choosing this as your stand is a little risque.

[Sir_Boagalott]

Of all the goals on which to make a stand, you're choosing the one which was essentially a goalmouth scramble? Did he put it in on his own? Sure. But every goalie in the league allows stupid ones like that. If you're going to take a stand, do it on the third goal where a better save wouldn't have let the puck come close to the goal line. I'm not taking sides in the "Price is good, NO he's useless" argument, I just think choosing this as your stand is a little risque.

Very true.

I'm primarily pointing out the 1st goal because before I posted the replay of it most people here were claiming that Malone "roofed" it and nothing Price could do which was complete bunk. Price totally scored that goal. Just though people should know what really happened.

I dont think Price is useless, but he has to many mental lapses for my liking.

[Trizzak]

Watch: http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip232769#clip232769 at 20 seconds when it shows the overhead angle.

Nothing Price could do? How aboot not kicking the puck into the net, I'm pretty sure that would have worked.

This analysis is so ridiculous I can only hope you're joking. Not even those on the Price bashing crusade are backing you on this.

His right leg is moving backwards slightly because of the momentum of his save attempt. If this is bad goaltending form in your opinion, then Price will never meet your standards. No goalie will ever meet your standards - not even the almighty Hasek.

This is nitpicking to the Nth degree. No hockey player could withstand this level of scrutiny.