Disgusted with game tonight and 75% of habs this season.

[PMAC]

Piss piss, moan moan. Where are the Habs fans? :hlogo:

As usual, I'm more disgusted with the so called 'fans' waaay more than the team. Makes me envious of Leafs fans.

Yep, makes me wonder why i bother to read this board, but every once in a while there is a serious analysis or titbit of news that lures me back.

[hab29RETIRED]

Hey 29, you are right, The Habs should win every year. They should still have the rights to every PQ player coming into the league, and if they don't want them on the big team they should create a PQ league and stick them there so no other team gets them. That is the brutal truth behind every single cup banner but 2. The NHL brought an end to this with expansion and since then we have had to draft like everyone else and nobody can expect a winning team every year with that sort of sytem. There will be ups and downs. Explain to me how this lineup is worse in anyway shape or form than what we had when Bob took over. Sorry to pull seniority , but since your 35 yrs means so much to you as a fan I happen to have 41 years as a fan in my mid forties.

KNow what that means? Nothing! It is moot.

So now please tell us all, who do you want as coach and gm of this team? Who do you think a different GM could have brought in when it is very obvious that most UFAs hate the PQ taxes? You are spouting alot of hatred and are not offering any sort of solution. Gainey built the cup winning team in Dallas, that is more than most GMs have ever accomplished. Man he sucks.

Just don't be on here praising these same people when and if they turn it around.

How much would you have paid Komo, Kovy and CaptSmurf to stay? Oh and we should have kept Lang too, right? Do you really think that mid season we would not have had to sign them for as an estimate, Saku 4mil, Kovy 6.5mil, Komo 6mil, Lang 2.5mil. There goes a wasted 19mil over 5years. Nice move! Kovalenko will never play outside of russia so he was no loss. Higgins will be a career 4th liner, and McDonaugh is 4-5 years away from anyone knowing if he develops or not. We got Gomez for a song and a long shot, BECAUSE his contract is too high.

Sorry to go off on you, but I believe you are just wrong, as are all the other love the team when they are up hate them when they are down fans. How many points did you expect the team to have mid season this year? I think most people that know hockey beyond their jerseys expected this to be at best a team battling for the last playoff spot. I hope for more as I always do, but in honesty if we make the playoffs this year we are doing great. No change of GM is going to bring the class of talent here you are looking for at the price you would want to pay. The taxes are just too high. Get used to it.

Why don't you at least get some facts straight if you are going to make an arguement. Which Kovalenko are you referring to??? the one that they picked up in the Roy trade??? And who in their right mind would have signed any of the players for the numbers you listed. Actually, Gainey just might have, becuase he has ALWAYS overpaid for his signings - in Montreal and Dallas. He got away with it in Dallas, because there was no cap.

Yep Gainey one a cup in Dallas. He also made a bunch of stupid signings there as well, the only saving grace for him was that he was able to dump mistakes like Audette of on the habs.

Yep the habs won all those cups in the 70's because lafleur, SHutt, robinson, gainey, Risebrough, Tremblay, Langway, Englom were not drafted, developed or traded for. In the 80's the habs that went to the finals were not home grown draft picks like Naslund, CHelios, Kurvers, Ludwig, Roy, Richer, Lemieux. The GM also didn't make smart pickups like BObby Smith, Damphouse that were integral to the cup runs, they were given to the habs, because, well its the habs god given right to win. The habs only may have won one cup each in the 80's and early 90's, but they had two powerful dynasties to contend with. However, they still were competitive and the players competed and played like there was some pride in wearing the CH. The scary thought is what if the habs had made Bowman the GM....

The previous summer, I complained about Striet, and kept hearing, IN BOB WE TRUST. The summer before, i said why the hell don't they trade Souray, and it ws IN BOB WE TRUST. Well guess what, how much longer are you going to keep blindly trusting bob????

As far as how many points I expected, I posted back in July that I hated the direction that Gainey was headed and was told how much better the team would be, the great system Martin would instill, how much of an upgrade Gomez is over Koivu.

Sorry, Gomez, may have more talent then Koivu, but given the amount of heart Koivu played with, how hard he drove to the net - to the net not around the net like Gomez does, Gomez isn't fit to carry Koivu's jock strap.

What was and has been identified as the weak point for the habs for the past 15 years????????? Size up front - particulary down the middle. So what does Gainey do, why add Laraque for 1.5M in a cap era two years ago, which again, I had posted at the time was a DUMB move and waste of cap space, and guess what, people like you said, no, Laraque would bring toughness to the time, players would feel bigger having him in the lineup. That worked out well.

This past summer, Gainey again had talked about getting a big centre. So he goes and gets Gomez, the only big thing about him is the mammoth contract that he took of Sathers hands. Sather is probably still laughing - even though Higgins isn't producing right now. To top that off the guys he signed a few days later will ensure that most of our top line money will be invested in the smurf line.

The habs have been marketing their past to and milking it for all its worth, even to the extent of having their players look like prison inmates in the uggliest jerseys known to man. If they spent half the amount of time actually trying to put a decent team together, DEVELOPING their talent, rather then drafting and watch it develop somewhere else, maybe we would have a competitive team.

Detroit hasn't been affected by the cap. To me their only mistake that is effecting them is their GM has been able to develop players out of no where that he doesn't think an elite goaltender is necessary. All teams have dips, but well run organizations do not squeak in or miss the playoffs every year except for one fluke star aligned season like thehabs have for the past 15 years.

On the other hand, teams like TOronto and the NYI, who constantly trade away their draft picks are the ones that the habs seem to be emulating. I can see why the habs management would want to emulate the leafs - bcoz they make money, lose, lose or lose. As a habs fan, I really don't care about how much money the habs are making. I expect management to put together a team that plays hard, competes hard and gives a hope for success. I'm not a leafs or cubs fans that love cheering on losers.

We blow up the team during the summer. What were the issues with the team last year. A lousy defence, undisicplined team, small forwards who played around the perimeter, players who had some sizzle but lacked finish, a lack of identity and a coach who wasn't getting his message accross. two young floundering goalies, without anyone to guide them. Well we got a new coach, we got rid of the problem players and rebuilt the team. We are almost a qaurter of the way throught the season. We had a ticking time bomb that Gainey picked up to give habs fans all over the world ulcers in Brisbeois and he actually outdid himself by finding a worse d-men then Brisebois!!!!! Can you honestly tell me that this team isn't a mirror of last year. However, thanks to Gainey - the core of the team is now locked in for the next 5 years. WE WILL BE PAYING GOMEZ TO SCORE 50-65 POINTS FOR $7.35M A YEAR FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS.

From all accounts players in FLorida hated Martin,, he did a great job of missing the playoffs there, in Ottawa, he could never win in the playoffs. BUt, oh yeah, he speaks french, sounds like the perfect choice for the habs.

Edited November 9, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[KoZed]

Piss piss, moan moan. Where are the Habs fans? :hlogo:

As usual, I'm more disgusted with the so called 'fans' waaay more than the team. Makes me envious of Leafs fans.

Knock yourself out: http://www.tmlforum.com/

[hab29RETIRED]

There's the problem. It's that sense of entitlement that makes you think we should be a cup contender every year. Well the cold, hard truth is that's we aren't entitled to shit. Just because we've had success in the past, it doesn't mean we ought to be better than the 29 other teams in the league. In the cap era, it's a leveled playing field all around and there are no more dynasties. The state of which teams in the NHL are competitive is in a constant flux. The Avalanche started out this decade as a strong team, but then, as time goes by, key players get old, free agents leave, and then since your past success has limited you to late draft picks, you will probably spend the next couple years in the gutter until you can accumulate enough strong picks to build around. That's exactly what happened to the Blackhawks, the Pens and the Caps. It's what's happening to the Lighning and Canes now. Detroit is next on the list.

We have not been bad enough to consistently be in the gutter for any extended period of time, thus we haven't picked high very often. Then people complain that we aren't as competitive as the Pens or the Caps? Well newsflash, we don't have any Crosbys or Ovechkins and personally, I don't wanna spend the next couple years in the basement in order to get them. I wanna see the Habs succeed in the big picture, but first and foremost I wanna see them win games. If that means not bombing at the expense of possible franchise players in the future, than so be it. I would rather be sitting on the playoff bubble then be where the Canes are dreaming about Hall or whoever. Gainey has done a damn good job with the assets under his control and if we can crack the top 8 (which we can), then that's all I can ask for because once the playoffs starts, it's a reset for everyone.

Its not like I'm expecting the habs to win the cup every year. At least I want them to compete and play like they have a chance to get to the dance, rather then just kicking and clawing their way into the playoffs every year.

What about the wings and devils. Those teams have had their blips, but they have had stong front offices and have done a good job drafting despite picking after the habs. Oh and why are the devils consistently competitive. Lou made some bad signings, but corrected his mistakes almost as fast as he made them. Oh, who do the devils model their organization after... the 70's canadiens.

organizations like the penguins, caps, lightening would not be model of success. Losing for a decade (and brinking on bankruptcy in the process) to win for 5 year is not the business model id want to adopt.

[ForumGhost]

Knock yourself out: http://www.tmlforum.com/

Well I guess it's pick your poison. I'm a Habs fans so I watch Habs game, but when it comes to hockey discussion, both fanbases are equally as whinny, emotional and overly critical. I bet if I found like a Blue or Stars fan I could have a great hockey discussion because it won't degenerate into the pure ridiculousness I see nightly on this message board.

I mean, look at the title to this thread and then consider we are three points behind the division leader. Like, what else do I really have to say? It speaks for itself.

Edited November 10, 2009 by ForumGhost

[johnnyhasbeen]

29, You have your points and they are for the most part valid. My main point is that who ever we have in charge has the same issue. Players hate the taxes in PQ! Players love to play in Detroit,. It is a great hockey town with the American tax system, on the boarder. It is not a fair market the Montreal is playing in when a player loses so much more of his take home to play there. If Scotty Bowman was running this team now he couldn't ice the team of the 70's or his Detroit Dynasty. It can't be done. We have to settle for the guys who are willing to take the cut or over pay a bit to get players to play for us. It is that simple. If a player takes home 1mil less after taxes, that is a big pay cut. And yes that should have been Valentenko who will stay in Russia. Mind farts happen regularly after 40..

You are not the only one on here who believes BG should be crucified, I for one don't believe that. Should we now promote Sergie so and match the 2mil the KHL is going to give him to hang onto a 4th liner, or is that another Bob blunder?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Gainey's fundamental failure has been the inability of the organization to develop any elite players. This has nothing to do with our draft position; there are plenty of good teams (e.g., Jersey, Detroit, Anaheim, Vancouver, Philadelphia) who have done a substantially better job of developing top-6 forwards and top-4 defencemen over the same span of time. This is why he HAD to go out and overspend on the UFA market - we had nobody from within who could to step up and replace the declining Koivu and Kovalev. That is the primordial weakness that has undermined the Gainey era. All the other "issues" are sideshows to that much more profound problem.

I found it very revealing to learn that Bob had apparently intended to fire the Hamilton coaching staff at the end of the 2007 season, but refrained because the Bulldogs won the championship. This suggests to me that Bob realized that something was rotten in the state of Habs' development well before the rest of us did. Unfortunately, we are now paying the price for this (understandable) restraint on his part.

Based on that, I think that Gainey is trying to hit the "restart" button, but discreetly. He now HAS an excellent developmental coach in Hamilton and a proven coach at the NHL level. There's the suspicion that his UFA signings were really an attempt to paper over the fundamental weakness until the *next* crop of young players (Subban, etc.) can make the jump. He's got a core that, with luck and good health, probably can be competitive enough to stave off his firing and tide the team over until that point. (Or such was the thinking). In other words, I suspect that Gainey is quietly trying to embark on another 5-year plan, with proper developmental structures in place this time, and hope that nobody notices.

Edited November 10, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Fanpuck33]

There's the problem. It's that sense of entitlement that makes you think we should be a cup contender every year. Well the cold, hard truth is that's we aren't entitled to shit. Just because we've had success in the past, it doesn't mean we ought to be better than the 29 other teams in the league. In the cap era, it's a leveled playing field all around and there are no more dynasties.

Montreal has had one legitimately good season in the last 15 years. They haven't made it past the second playoff round in fifteen years. That is unacceptable for a team with the kind of history and tradition. Of course there are going to be down years, but they've all been down years except for once in 15 years. It is not too much to ask that the Habs be a true contender more often than once every fifteen years. Fans should not be content with that kind of success rate. There are some franchises that can be content with squeaking into the playoffs now and then, but Montreal is not one of them. The day that the expectations for the Habs are the same as the expectations for expansion teams in non-hockey cities is the day Habs fans may as well give up hope. The salary cap is not the end of the dyansty. New Jersey and Detroit are consistently 100 point teams, and San Jose is looking to join the ranks. That is what Montreal should be striving to be. That was the goal of Bob's five year plan, to build a team that would be able to contend consistently. We all thought it was coming to fruition two years ago. Instead, just a year later, Bob completely blew up the team. Clearly, fans aren't the only ones who think two years ago was a fluke, or Bob would have kept the team together. Instead, he admitted to the world that his first 5 years with the same was a failure.

[Habsfan]

I truly understand your frustration hab29RETIRED. I am also somewhat fed up of this mediocrity, but before the season started, I said that I wouldn't be surprised to see the Habs with an 8-10-2 record...and they seem to be headed for that. Given that Markov isn'T around, i'd say that it's kinda expected. If the Habs can learn to gel a little better in the next 20 games, and stay at or slightly above the .500 mark until Markov returns, I'd say that our chances of making the playoffs will be good.

The biggest problem right now seems to be the lack of production from anyone except the 1st line(and Plex). We all expected to get better production out of AK46, Latendresse, Lapierre and Pacioretty...unfortunately, all 4 of them are struggling. Also, we need our goalies to be spectacular every night. It's unfair to ask that of our goalies, but that's the situation we are in.

Another ######ing habs PK coming up!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I truly understand your frustration hab29RETIRED. I am also somewhat fed up of this mediocrity, but before the season started, I said that I wouldn't be surprised to see the Habs with an 8-10-2 record...and they seem to be headed for that. Given that Markov isn'T around, i'd say that it's kinda expected. If the Habs can learn to gel a little better in the next 20 games, and stay at or slightly above the .500 mark until Markov returns, I'd say that our chances of making the playoffs will be good.

The biggest problem right now seems to be the lack of production from anyone except the 1st line(and Plex). We all expected to get better production out of AK46, Latendresse, Lapierre and Pacioretty...unfortunately, all 4 of them are struggling. Also, we need our goalies to be spectacular every night. It's unfair to ask that of our goalies, but that's the situation we are in.

Good analysis Habsfan. I agree. We need the G to play better and most of all ONE of the goddamned young players to ACTUALLY MAKE AN IMPACT. The latter point is the one that really drives me batty. It's the failure of the Gainey regime in a nutshell.

Working from my latest theory that Bob is actually working on a second five-year plan and using this group as a cover for that, I'm currently wrestling with whether I have the stamina for another five years of mediocrity. Not sure what the answer is. We really need this group to have a strong second half, or it's gonna be very painful to be a Habs fan for quite a while to come.

[Sir_Boagalott]

They should still have the rights to every PQ player coming into the league, and if they don't want them on the big team they should create a PQ league and stick them there so no other team gets them. That is the brutal truth behind every single cup banner but 2. t.

I was going to say the same thing.

I definitely vote yes to bringing that rule back.

Think of all the Cups the Habs would have won had they had 1st dibs on Brodeur, Mario, Vinny, Aucion, Tangs, Briere, Giguere, etc

The rescinding of that rule robbed of us all of many Cups.

[KoZed]

I was going to say the same thing.

I definitely vote yes to bringing that rule back.

Think of all the Cups the Habs would have won had they had 1st dibs on Brodeur, Mario, Vinny, Aucion, Tangs, Briere, Giguere, etc

The rescinding of that rule robbed of us all of many Cups.

LOL

Hey, they didnt even Lafleur with that rule. Imagine. We'd have got Lafleur with our "normal" pick and Marcel Dionne with the QC pick.

What's funny is that all the names that come to mind, the Habs could have drafted them if they wanted: Bossy, Denis Savard, Luc Robitaille, Brodeur, Brière, Gagné, Vermette, Lombardi, Pominville, etc. Habs passed on all of them, so the QC rule is irrelevant there. 

[Habsfan]

Working from my latest theory that Bob is actually working on a second five-year plan and using this group as a cover for that

...but with what money?? Bob spent it all last summer. The Habs are up against the Cap, and the cap is gonna come down next season. How can he rebuild when 90% of the money is already spent for next year??

[Habsy]

Nodody, anywhere, has confirmed the cap's going down.

[saskhab]

The Canadian dollar is higher now than for last season, which has offset the slight drop in attendacne league wide. The cap is probably going to be about the same as the past 2 years have been.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

I don't have a problem with Martin's system and is it wise to lay the blame at his door? After all, a system is only as efficient as the players choose to utilize it.

I like how the players generally collapse and/or cover the slot. The board work is troubling but not always. Has Spacek played well? Is Bergeron causing some viewers like me to fear in trepidation when he has the puck? There are some concerns individually that is crushing any hopes of the D being "greater than the sum of its parts". So, I don't have too much of an issue with the defence overall. I would like to see see some changes on who we dress though.

My big problem with Martin and the players is on offence. They lack puck possession smarts right now. It's offence that is troubling. We lost by a goal last night. Against TB we scored a whopping one goal. Where's the goals? Settle it down and hold the puck! Sometimes they should relax a bit and hold the puck - especially on the powerplay. Most of the time fans get upset with too much possession and yell, "shoot". In this case it appears to be the exact opposite issue. Sure there are times when they should look for quick movement and one-timers - but not 24/7. And yes, sometimes there is defensive pressure and it has to be moved - in these cases maintaining possession is too risky. Instead I find far too often they are going gangbusters on adrenaline and looking for speedy one timers. The puck is precious and should be treated like gold. We are so intent on flying into the attack zone that cohesiveness is lost on us. During the times when we can easily maintain possession (no defensive pressure) I still find we are treating it like a hot potato.

SETTLE IT DOWN WHEN THE GAME CONDITIONS MERIT IT HABS!

Edited November 11, 2009 by Athlétique.Canadien

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

...but with what money?? Bob spent it all last summer. The Habs are up against the Cap, and the cap is gonna come down next season. How can he rebuild when 90% of the money is already spent for next year??

Well, a 5-year-plan basically means bringing along young players. E.g., in 5 years Subban will be a Montreal Canadien (and he'd better be a top-4 defenceman by that point; my hope is that he comes in as Hamrlik's replacement and really starts coming into his own by 2014). Avtsin may be a factor. Leblanc will be emerging. Price, Pacioretty and D'Agostini will be hitting their prime. Latendresse will have definitively have answered the question of whether he has any hope of being a top-6 forward. Maxwell may be a second-line C. And new players will have been added into the mix. The point is that most of these players will be CHEAP, because young.

The cap isn't an issue if you're rebuilding with youth. The current core is, according to this theory, basically there to keep the team competitive while Gainey quietly tries to acquire kids and bring them along. In 5 years, Gomez and Gionta will be disposable, because they'll be on the downside and replaceable by (cheaper) talent developed from within. This is what *should* have happened with the late unlamented core, but of course didn't.

Our cap problems will centre around veterans and young veterans who emerge too soon *within* that five-year window. Plekanec and Price, for instance. But I'm not sure we need to slit our wrists over that just yet. Lots of teams just manage tight cap room. Let's see what Gainey does rather than just assume we'll lose everybody.

As for the general theory of a "rebuild in disguise," I have no evidence for this hypothesis except the revelation by Pierre Boivin that Gainey intended to fire the Hamilton coaching staff as early as 2007, and the length of the contracts of the current core. As I said before, that Bob wanted to fire Lever et al. back then suggests strongly to me that Gainey recognized quite early on that something had gone wrong with player development. When he blew up the team this summer, it was a definitive admission that the rebuild had failed. But realistically he could not ask the fans to wait another five years, so he's tried to buy time with the current group. Hence the 4-5 year contracts he doled out. You can read those contract terms as a tacit prediction of how long it will take Gainey to replace those guys with young players developed from within.

I may be giving Bob too much credit for deviousness here. But my little theory does offer SOME hope that he hasn't just lost the plot, as Wamsley accuses him of doing. As I say, if Bob starts dealing away more young players/picks for veterans, then we'll know definitively that he *has* lost the plot.

[Habsfan]

Our cap problems will centre around veterans and young veterans who emerge too soon *within* that five-year window. Plekanec and Price, for instance.

THIS is what really worried me. There's a very good chance that we might lose these two guys by that time...especially Price!! We gave up on a guy like Kopitar to get Price, and if we lose him for nothing (or a bag of pucks) that would be the straw that broke the camels back for me! I would demand Bob's firing on the spot!

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

THIS is what really worried me. There's a very good chance that we might lose these two guys by that time...especially Price!! We gave up on a guy like Kopitar to get Price, and if we lose him for nothing (or a bag of pucks) that would be the straw that broke the camels back for me! I would demand Bob's firing on the spot!

I agree, but it hasn't happened yet. And Price has hardly made a compelling case for a salary increase. It may be possible to "manage" the cap situation and re-sign these guys. We have enough to fret over right now, let's not panic about hypotheticals.

[rafikz]

Chpachek is not in shape

I'm shure he eatch a lot of chipchs

[saskhab]

I wouldn't worry too much about the cap. Plekanec, if he's part of the long term plan, will be signed for the money he's making now plus a little extra that will come off Mara's salary. Price will be signed for about what he's making now, while Halak will get a raise (and possibly be traded). Carle would replace Mara on the blueline for next year for less than half the cost.

It is troubling to look at our player development in the past four years (the Lever years, and 3 out of the 4 of them were the Carbo years in the NHL). In 2005, Plekanec, Higgins and Komisarek became NHLers. Obviously something has happened with Higgins (probably mainly due to his injury problems), but those are 3 players that could legitimately be looked as top six forwards/top 4 D. Since then, it's been dry, with only 2 goalies to emerge in significant roles and then Andrei Kostitsyn, who has had major issues and hasn't developed into the first line guy we projected him as. With Latendresse, Sergei Kostitsyn, and Ryan O'Byrne having significant ups and downs... we've been set back big time.

[lazy26]

Chpachek is not in shape

I'm shure he eatch a lot of chipchs

[rafikz]

Jacques Martin had those lines today in practice:

Makes more sense

Cam - Gomez - Gionta

Pyatt - Pleks - AK46

White - Lapierre - Latendresse

Unchanged: Pacio - Metro - Moen

[saskhab]

Last chance for AK46 to show he can play with Plex. That combo hasn't worked in ages.

Thank God Lapierre is off of Plex's wing, though.

[KoZed]

Jacques Martin had those lines today in practice:

Makes more sense

Cam - Gomez - Gionta

Pyatt - Pleks - AK46

White - Lapierre - Latendresse

Unchanged: Pacio - Metro - Moen

I'm guessing you meant Latendresse - Lapierre - White, or has Martin switched both to their off-side?

Anyways. Pyatt on the 2nd line. Not even Stewart and Chipchura got that chance. I hope they get the message.