johnnyhasbeen Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Koivu, 29pnts vs Gomez 34pnts Kovalev 35 pnts vs Cammalleri 42pnts Higgins 13pnts vs Gionta 24 pnts Komiserik 9pnts -9 vs Bergeron 26pnts -10 No improvements? Keep up the terrible job Mr Gainey!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Koivu, 29pnts vs Gomez 34pnts Kovalev 35 pnts vs Cammalleri 42pnts Higgins 13pnts vs Gionta 24 pnts Komiserik 9pnts -9 vs Bergeron 26pnts -10 No improvements? Keep up the terrible job Mr Gainey!!! You forgot to factor in Lang and Tanguay vs Moen and Pacioretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 (edited) Hoo boy, here we go. It's clear that the players Gainey brought in are as a whole, exactly what he said they were - better, with mostly stronger character, and track records of winning, and lots younger to boot. There is no question in my mind that Gainey has assembled a team with a quality core. That's not the issue. The issues with Gainey as I see it are these: 1. Contract management. If you sign UFAs you are almost by definition overpaying. Most of Bob's signings were costly. This leaves us, oh, about $4-5 million short in total, money which could be used to bring in additional help or re-sign Pleks. Considering that depth has been our biggest problem this season, this is a haunting point. 2. Poor master strategy. A minority of Habs fans think that Bob should have re-signed the old core to short-term deals, endured what no doubt would have been a painful 2009-10, and then stepped forward to pluck the low-hanging fruit from teams like Atlanta that, in a tight cap environment, are no longer able to retain the Kovlachuks of the world. Instead he's committed to this nucleus for the next 4-5 years. Another version of this 'poor master strategy' argument says that Gainey should have dealt away all those players from the core at last year's deadline instead of letting them walk. 3. Poor drafting/development. Why did Bob find himself in the position of having to recreate the team's core via free agency? Because as of 2009 the vaunted 'rebuild' had failed to yield any clear-cut top-6 forwards (Pleks did step up this season, finally) and only one top-4 defenceman (Mark Streit, who was lost to free agency). Considering that his whole raison d'etre as GM was to rebuild from within, this is a shocking failure. 4. Specific errors. Here's what most fans focus on, e.g., not trading Souray at the deadline, the contract to Laraque, the Ribeiro trade, trading Latendresse, firing Julien, trading Huet and gambling that Price was ready, yada yada yada yada. I won't extend this post by analyzing each point, except to say that for my money, #3 is the really compelling criticism. #4 is the least compelling, because GMs make innumerable decisions for a complex array of reasons, and you could attack ANY GM by focusing only on errors. But I'm sure your post will result in a massive venting of frustration at Bob, so there'll be lots of time to elaborate... Edited January 23, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Koivu, 29pnts vs Gomez 34pnts Kovalev 35 pnts vs Cammalleri 42pnts Higgins 13pnts vs Gionta 24 pnts Komiserik 9pnts -9 vs Bergeron 26pnts -10 Sourey 13pnts -14 vs Hamrlik 19pnts -3 Ribeiro 33 pnts vs Plekanec 49pnts Huet .904 Price .913 No improvements? Keep up the terrible job Mr Gainey!!! 29,557,000 Habs cap hit 31,025,000 ex habs cap hit And stop spending so much Bob! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 It's way too early to call the Lats/Pouliot deal an error based on such a small sample size from both players. Pouliot's production in Montreal hasn't been that much less than Latendresse's production in Minnesota. The error with Lats was screwing up his development and sticking him in roles which weren't right for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 trading Latendresse Zoiks, all the others are debatable, but this one? If nothing else, it's a lateral shift, but a mistake? He took an asset that was underperforming, wasn't being used, and was having trouble finding his game and traded him for an asset having the same issues on another team, yet who virtually everyone in the hockey world thought had a significantly higher upside. Look, I have always liked Lats and was disappointed with how things turned out, but to call that trade a mistake is extremely harsh. Pouliot was smothered under Lemaire; look at Gaborik the minute he steps out from under Jacques iron fist. Personally, I think this trade will be a steal when we look back in ten years. Not that Lats won't be good, but that Pouliot will be significantly better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 trading Latendresse Sarcasm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 Sarcasm? You're right. The esteemed Cucumber was trading in sarcasm and I failed to catch on because I've only been scanning threads lately. My bad. You rock Cucumber. I particularly like your English version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share Posted January 24, 2010 Didn't Gainey already solve the development process by hiring Boucher in Hamilton? People keep bringing up how poorly we have developed our players and point to that as being the GMs fault. I say he saw that aswell and took care of the problem. I am sure the Gainey bashers will never agree though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Didn't Gainey already solve the development process by hiring Boucher in Hamilton? People keep bringing up how poorly we have developed our players and point to that as being the GMs fault. I say he saw that aswell and took care of the problem. I am sure the Gainey bashers will never agree though. I have only a one specific concerns with regards to player development...and they are very much the GM's fault: The Habs continue to call up players too early on one hand. Just a few examples: Latendresse was brought in too early. Price was called in too early. AKost was probably brought in too early. O'Byrne was brought in too early. etc Detroit is successful at player development because they let their prospects succeed in the minors before calling them up. When it comes to prospects the Habs cave to media pressure...they have for years now. On the other side of the coin they draft "projects" out of the NCAA...by project I mean guys that will take longer to get to the NHL because NCAA players often need more AHL "seasoning". Some of them do not get enough seasoning because of the above...some of them are still "coming" to the NHL. Fischer and McDonaugh (yeah, I know he's gone) are examples of that. I have no problem with the Habs drafts...they are typically thought of as quite strong at the draft table. They've had some tough luck with bringing guys over from Russia (or keeping them here) but that is not indicative of drafting a poor talent. Valentenko, Emelin, Perezhogin all are capable of being NHL regulars today. I am personally fine with Gainey as GM. I do have issues with his talent management (per above) and I still hate the Gomez deal. I have no issues with the Ribeiro or Latendresse trades...though I think if Lats spent his time in the minors properly it wouldn't have been necessary. Regardless Pouliot is a better overall "talent"...we'll see which one pans out better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Actually, what I hate most are blind supporters of Gainey...the guy has NOT been perfect as a GM and some fans need to learn some critical thinking. Let's all try to be a little more objective... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Actually, what I hate most are blind supporters of Gainey...the guy has NOT been perfect as a GM and some fans need to learn some critical thinking. Let's all try to be a little more objective... What I hate most is the ridiculous notion of blind supporters. You take away from your opinion, when you say that. If someone doesn't agree with you, and might like a move the GM makes, they become a blind supporter. It's a two way street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share Posted January 24, 2010 I fully agree that player development coming into this season was poor, however, this falls on the coaching staff of the AHL team. It is also in part their job to say when a player is ready to make the move. We did rush the players mentioned above, and that wasn't the best choice, however I don't lay the entire blame on the GM. The fact that he cleaned house in the coaching department shows that he also saw this problem and has tried to resolve it. Player development is not the GM's job, however he is the one who has to answer for failures in that department. I think he answered loud and clear and do not believe that the new 'Dogs coaching staff will have the same results. Please, let's not talk about the past. Currently, this season, who do you feel is being mishandled? WHo is being rushed? Then why hasn't PK been called up? I am not a blind fan, I just don't judge the results of one coaching staff as being the best a GM can be. that would be blind of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) I fully agree that player development coming into this season was poor, however, this falls on the coaching staff of the AHL team. It is also in part their job to say when a player is ready to make the move. We did rush the players mentioned above, and that wasn't the best choice, however I don't lay the entire blame on the GM. The fact that he cleaned house in the coaching department shows that he also saw this problem and has tried to resolve it. Player development is not the GM's job, however he is the one who has to answer for failures in that department. I think he answered loud and clear and do not believe that the new 'Dogs coaching staff will have the same results. Please, let's not talk about the past. Currently, this season, who do you feel is being mishandled? WHo is being rushed? Then why hasn't PK been called up? I am not a blind fan, I just don't judge the results of one coaching staff as being the best a GM can be. that would be blind of me. When Markov went down he got us Bergeron instead of calling up Subban to early so maybe he has learned. Edited January 25, 2010 by Dalhabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Actually, what I hate most are blind supporters of Gainey...the guy has NOT been perfect as a GM and some fans need to learn some critical thinking. Let's all try to be a little more objective... No manager makes all the right moves. Bob is no different. I too have been disappointed with some of his moves and applaud some. That's the nature of arm chair quarterbacks. Their are fans that have rose plated glasses as well as fans that have tunnel vision. We got them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Koivu, 29pnts vs Gomez 34pnts Kovalev 35 pnts vs Cammalleri 42pnts Higgins 13pnts vs Gionta 24 pnts Komiserik 9pnts -9 vs Bergeron 26pnts -10 Sourey 13pnts -14 vs Hamrlik 19pnts -3 Ribeiro 33 pnts vs Plekanec 49pnts Huet .904 Price .913 No improvements? Keep up the terrible job Mr Gainey!!! 29,557,000 Habs cap hit 31,025,000 ex habs cap hit And stop spending so much Bob! You STILL left out Lang and Tanguay, two of our best players from last year. This argument has no value if you're going to pick which players you're going to compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 You STILL left out Lang and Tanguay, two of our best players from last year. This argument has no value if you're going to pick which players you're going to compare. And no Spacek on that list whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 A) clearly lats need to keep pace with pouliot & not the other way around.... lats= 13G 6A 19PTS +5 in 27 games ( 6 G in his first 15) pouliot= 10 G in 15 games (he still has 12 games to pad his point totals) as to comparibles gomez> then koivu no doubt camm> 100 times better then kovy (sorry alexei grouppies) gionta> tanguay gio= 13G 12A 25pts in 32 games +5 tang= 8 G 19A 27 pts in 50 games +2 metro= lang clearly a sideways move as goals/ points very similar but metro has a better plus minus metro 10g 11a 21pts +1 lang 8g 17a 25 pts -8 there is just to many factors to compare this team to last years... the biggest though i feel is the direct trade off of kovy for cammelleri. as much as all the "gainey haters" emphasize his bad moves... they fail to talk about the "coup" of the year.. cammalerri has been nothing short of spectacular this season. his attitude toward winning is unquestionable. and his ability to UP plex's game to another level was just sweet gravy to his upcoming 30th goal.... and were still in january. plex's has always been a plugger with great ethic... couppled with camm & bang... it's just what AK needed after his initial pouting in the first 20 games post SK's demotion. take away kovy's 2 multiple point games were he got like 10 pts & u get the same bull from him. im not questioning his talent (kovy heart on guys)i just think cammelleri is a major reason we have turned a corner. not to mention he will be younger then kovy is now when his contract runs out! contract's aside.... (gainey has to overpay slightly to compensate for quebec tax) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 i would just like to see how we play down the stretch with gionta- gomez- pouliottt AK -plex- cammellerri SK- lapierre - d'ago moen- metro- white markov -gorges spacek- hammer gill- obyrne darche, MARA, MAB i think pax might be done for the year in MON for cap reason's & darche has palyed well in ONLY 2 games so i will wait to anoint the AHL vet. clearly MAB has no part to play on this team... with all the PP goals he's brought i am a firm believer that you could put me on that point with markov & i will succeed ( ala souray, striet, and now MAB) we paid for spacek & his left handed shot let's use him there on the PP & put MAB in the press were he belongs. he makes brisbois look like an allstarr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) clearly MAB has no part to play on this team... with all the PP goals he's brought i am a firm believer that you could put me on that point with markov & i will succeed ( ala souray, striet, and now MAB) we paid for spacek & his left handed shot let's use him there on the PP & put MAB in the press were he belongs. he makes brisbois look like an allstarr. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYmudWEUSo Edited January 25, 2010 by Trizzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 That's funny, I'd have to agree on being wrong about MAB, but hey, that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Two wins and two great games and there's more bitching than ever on these boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bar Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Success does breed contempt they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 i have clear opinions of my beloved habs... when souray bounced most on this thread thought our PP was screwed. then striet comes along and 1 ups souray... he leaves and were up sh&ts creek right? no, schneider comes in & finally picks up were streit left off. fast forward to today and bergeron who brings absolutly nothing to the team except turnovers bad defence and a booming shot at the point. your telling me he is worthy of a roster spot??? clearly montreals PP system which was #1/2 over the last 3/4 seasons is not because of MAB... anyone of hammer, spacek, camm, SK, can play that right side with a left shot. MAB is not a good player and we are a very vulnerable team with him in our top 6 pairings. i also am not a fan of defensemen playing in forward roles. i'm not complaining.... i never do..... my perspective is let AK come back lets play 20 games with a complete lineup & put MAB in the press box use markov/ spacek on the point for the first unit as originally planned in the start of the season and try hammer/ SK on the 2nd unit.... MAB succkkkkssss a$$! MAB = 10G 18A 28pts -9 99% of his points are on the PP yet he still sports a minus 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYmudWEUSo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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