Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Flyers interested in Gill. Picks please, nothing in their prospect pool entices me (nothing they'd deal anyway). I'll take LA's second rounder though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Picks please, nothing in their prospect pool entices me (nothing they'd deal anyway). I'll take LA's second rounder though. I wonder if we offered up Gill/Weber/Moen if we could get JVR - he is injured and is a concussion risk. Not likely, but would be worth an ask - hell Schenn to me isn't worth JVR and that was rumoured before JVR got hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafrous10 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Flyers interested in Gill. Better hurry up and do it because his value is going to drop if he keeps playing like tonight I wonder if we offered up Gill/Weber/Moen if we could get JVR - he is injured and is a concussion risk. Not likely, but would be worth an ask - hell Schenn to me isn't worth JVR and that was rumoured before JVR got hurt. Holmgrem isn't stupid. 2 UFA's and a smurfy dman. No contenders would even have room for all 3 of them at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Better hurry up and do it because his value is going to drop if he keeps playing like tonight ANyone trading for Gill knows his deficiencies and is picking him up strictly for the playoff drive. Hall Gill's value is only going to increase at the deadline - particularly if some of the other potential DMan like Suter and that guy in Dallas are taken off the market like Gleason was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I wonder if we offered up Gill/Weber/Moen if we could get JVR - he is injured and is a concussion risk. Not likely, but would be worth an ask - hell Schenn to me isn't worth JVR and that was rumoured before JVR got hurt. I have to agree do not think they would be interested in that. Have to think the Hawks would be more interested in that package or the Sharks. ANyone trading for Gill knows his deficiencies and is picking him up strictly for the playoff drive. Hall Gill's value is only going to increase at the deadline - particularly if some of the other potential DMan like Suter and that guy in Dallas are taken off the market like Gleason was. That is why I will stick to my belief that the habs will get a low end 1st rounder for him.(ie from a team that believes they will go deep) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafrous10 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ANyone trading for Gill knows his deficiencies and is picking him up strictly for the playoff drive. Hall Gill's value is only going to increase at the deadline - particularly if some of the other potential DMan like Suter and that guy in Dallas are taken off the market like Gleason was. ANyone trading for Gill knows his deficiencies and is picking him up strictly for the playoff drive. Hall Gill's value is only going to increase at the deadline - particularly if some of the other potential DMan like Suter and that guy in Dallas are taken off the market like Gleason was. You're right,Gleason signing was huge to up Gills value Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 That is why I will stick to my belief that the habs will get a low end 1st rounder for him.(ie from a team that believes they will go deep) Yep - but for that to happen, PG needs to stop operating like the CIA and be a bit more like Burke and create an auction situation. I think that if you pit Vancouver against the hawks and Sharks or the Flyers against the Rangers (boston of course is off limits), you can drive up the value for a guys like Gill and Moen. My gut tells me that PG stick to making a trade to a Western team two weeks before the deadline though and then GM's will be saying "damn, I though the habs were going to try and make the playoffs and weren't going to trade Gill or Moen - wish I knew he was available this early". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I wonder if we offered up Gill/Weber/Moen if we could get JVR - he is injured and is a concussion risk. Not likely, but would be worth an ask - hell Schenn to me isn't worth JVR and that was rumoured before JVR got hurt. Zero chance, unless Holmgren is fired and Milbury hired in Philly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yep - but for that to happen, PG needs to stop operating like the CIA and be a bit more like Burke and create an auction situation. I think that if you pit Vancouver against the hawks and Sharks or the Flyers against the Rangers (boston of course is off limits), you can drive up the value for a guys like Gill and Moen. My gut tells me that PG stick to making a trade to a Western team two weeks before the deadline though and then GM's will be saying "damn, I though the habs were going to try and make the playoffs and weren't going to trade Gill or Moen - wish I knew he was available this early". No kidding. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yep - but for that to happen, PG needs to stop operating like the CIA and be a bit more like Burke and create an auction situation. I think that if you pit Vancouver against the hawks and Sharks or the Flyers against the Rangers (boston of course is off limits), you can drive up the value for a guys like Gill and Moen. My gut tells me that PG stick to making a trade to a Western team two weeks before the deadline though and then GM's will be saying "damn, I though the habs were going to try and make the playoffs and weren't going to trade Gill or Moen - wish I knew he was available this early". If a GM says that and didnt call PG, that GM is a moron. Also, I'm not sure auctions via media drive trade value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 If a GM says that and didnt call PG, that GM is a moron. Also, I'm not sure auctions via media drive trade value. Who is the bigger moron though - the guy doing the selling who didn't exaust all potential avenues for his asset or the guy doing the buying??? Its incumbant on PG to pick up the phone and call every GM to see what he can get, rather then call a select few, or avoid dealing in conference. It also doesn't hurt to let it be known to Chicago that Vancouver or SJ are trying to get Moen. You don't have to do an auction through the nedia, like the narcissist Burke does, but as a Gm you need to drive the value up for your player, its not up to the other GM's to do that for you. When gainey made the idiotic Gomez trade, Sather said he asked for McDonugh, never expecting to actually to be able to get him. But the main thing was he ASKED and hence got a guy he wasn't expecting to be able to get!!!!!! BTW, the Gomez trade was as bad as any deal that blithering idiot Milbury made - and I said that at the time of the trade without the benefit of hindight and was blasted on this site at the time with people comparing McDonough to Joseph Bulaj or however we gave up for Kovolev. Hell I would have thought a deal straigh up of Higgins for Gomez would have been lousy, without the Rangers giving more to get rid of a salary, they were desperate to get rid of of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I'm with Habs29 on this. The Halak-Eller deal was a good one, but the process behind it - apparently targeting one team and making the deal happen, rather than 'exhausting all potential avenues' as Habs29 puts it - still smells slightly fishy. Personally, I find the Cammalleri deal hurts more, because he was our biggest chip, and although the trade may yet prove to have been canny, that lingering sense that we could have gotten more really irks me. For all that he lacks any coherent vision, I trust Gauthier to make reasonable deals. I don't trust him to make the best deal. And given the parlous state of our franchise, we absolutely need to get every last bit of value from whatever assets we've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I'm with Habs29 on this. The Halak-Eller deal was a good one, but the process behind it - apparently targeting one team and making the deal happen, rather than 'exhausting all potential avenues' as Habs29 puts it - still smells slightly fishy. Personally, I find the Cammalleri deal hurts more, because he was our biggest chip, and although the trade may yet prove to have been canny, that lingering sense that we could have gotten more really irks me. For all that he lacks any coherent vision, I trust Gauthier to make reasonable deals. I don't trust him to make the best deal. And given the parlous state of our franchise, we absolutely need to get every last bit of value from whatever assets we've got. Even if Cammy sucks for the rest of his career and Bourque puts up 25 goals a year for the next 4 or 5 years he has left on his contract, the deal sucks. You don't trade a guy with Cammy's skill/peformance history the day after a blow-up when his price is rock bottom. You would think the organization that traded Roy would have learned to be smarter. When the Roy trade was made and all i heard was that he was traded, i was thinking, hmm, I love Roy, but why the hell would the Avs trade Sakic, Forsburg or Kamensky??? It was inconcievable to me that we would have got less. Hell before the Nords moved to Colorado, it was reported that the Nords were willing to trade Owen Nolen and Fiset for Roy, but Savard balked becuae he wanted Thibault included in that deal. Hell, we would have been better off if Savard had made that deal then the brainless piss ass deal that Reggie Houle made!!! Anyway, getting back to the present. Cammy is the one guy we had that I think packaged with a Weber or Gill could have brought us the elite YOUNG centre at the deadline. You make a move like that at the deadline or close to it, not in early to mid January, when the player is at his lowest point of value. I even brought up last year, moving Cammy to Pittsburgh to play with Crosby, back when Crosby was running away with the scoring title, but everybody hated the thought of that because of his playoff performance. Who knows, if we had tried to make a move like that when Stall/Malkin were not healthy and Crosby playing like Gretzky before his injury, this could have been a very different year. But we have a GM who makes, safe, quiet, surprise moves and apprears to surprise many of his peers who are caught off gaurd that they a player was available. That was the issue I had with the Halak trade as well. Yes the goalie market was soft. but Halak just came off a final 4 appearance, when his value was at the hightest point. The day the deal was made, I posted here that it didn't matter if Eller scored 40 goals the next year, the way the deal went down, made it a lousy deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blonde Demon Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What team would be giving up an "elite" player for a 7m/year, small/soft, winger that can't stay healthy that has character issues? Face it, Cammy's writing was on the wall..He wanted out and the sooner the better..IMO, Gauthier's hands were tied and he got the best deal available..He wanted to get bigger and grittier up front all the while not losing Cammy' production..You don't get it.."Elite" players aren't traded anymore..They are drafted and locked up long term... We got more than market value for Cammy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Philly managed to move a couple of elite players. The leafs picked up phaneuf. The pens-stars made a move, the Avs-blues made a pretty big deal last year as well. I really think a team like the caps or the sharks who have not gotten it done in the playoffs would have been great targets for a Cammy trade, but then with caps it would have meant trading him within the conference. With the caps, we could have taken a bad contract like Schultz, and they have that russian prospect who was on the WJ's along with colarado's first rounder. What team would be giving up an "elite" player for a 7m/year, small/soft, winger that can't stay healthy that has character issues? Face it, Cammy's writing was on the wall..He wanted out and the sooner the better..IMO, Gauthier's hands were tied and he got the best deal available..He wanted to get bigger and grittier up front all the while not losing Cammy' production..You don't get it.."Elite" players aren't traded anymore..They are drafted and locked up long term... We got more than market value for Cammy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I'm with Habs29 on this. The Halak-Eller deal was a good one, but the process behind it - apparently targeting one team and making the deal happen, rather than 'exhausting all potential avenues' as Habs29 puts it - still smells slightly fishy. Personally, I find the Cammalleri deal hurts more, because he was our biggest chip, and although the trade may yet prove to have been canny, that lingering sense that we could have gotten more really irks me. For all that he lacks any coherent vision, I trust Gauthier to make reasonable deals. I don't trust him to make the best deal. And given the parlous state of our franchise, we absolutely need to get every last bit of value from whatever assets we've got. Something I found on HF today.Bob McKenzie's twitter on the day of the Halak trade TSNBobMcKenzieSources say PHI, TB and SJ were others pitching hard on Halak, What's clear now is that, in spite of playoffs, Price was and is MTL's guy. andKevin Paul Dupont's article on the dealThe Atlanta Thrashers talked to the Montreal Canadiens about acquiring Jaroslav Halak before he was moved to the St. Louis Blues. I know the Canadiens wanted prospect Patrice Cormier as part of the deal. Several teams have called about Cormier. Take the Thrashers' interest in Halak as a subtle indication that the Thrashers aren't close to re-signing Pavel Kubina. Can we stop the myth that Halak was never shopped, now?Its a myth created by Pierre McGuire who hates Gauthier, the man who fired McGuire in Ottawa and who wanted the Montreal job desperately after Gainey, and is bitter he never was even considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Who is the bigger moron though - the guy doing the selling who didn't exaust all potential avenues for his asset or the guy doing the buying??? Its incumbant on PG to pick up the phone and call every GM to see what he can get, rather then call a select few, or avoid dealing in conference. It also doesn't hurt to let it be known to Chicago that Vancouver or SJ are trying to get Moen. You don't have to do an auction through the nedia, like the narcissist Burke does, but as a Gm you need to drive the value up for your player, its not up to the other GM's to do that for you.l Now that we've destroyed McGuire's myth on the Halak deal. What makes you think this isnt whats happened in our other trades. Ie we have one GM who says he wasnt told Cammy was available, but thats it, one GM. Seems to me that its pretty likely he was one of the 7 NTC GMs. When gainey made the idiotic Gomez trade, Sather said he asked for McDonugh, never expecting to actually to be able to get him. But the main thing was he ASKED and hence got a guy he wasn't expecting to be able to get!!!!!!BTW, the Gomez trade was as bad as any deal that blithering idiot Milbury made - and I said that at the time of the trade without the benefit of hindight and was blasted on this site at the time with people comparing McDonough to Joseph Bulaj or however we gave up for Kovolev. Hell I would have thought a deal straigh up of Higgins for Gomez would have been lousy, without the Rangers giving more to get rid of a salary, they were desperate to get rid of of. Jason Spezza, Zdeno Chara, and Bill Muckalt for Alexei Yashin easily tops the Gomez deal. Not even close. Add to that the fact Mad Mike has about 4 other trades that on their own rival Gomez and I dont know why youd compare the two GMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Something I found on HF today.Bob McKenzie's twitter on the day of the Halak tradeandKevin Paul Dupont's article on the dealCan we stop the myth that Halak was never shopped, now?Its a myth created by Pierre McGuire who hates Gauthier, the man who fired McGuire in Ottawa and who wanted the Montreal job desperately after Gainey, and is bitter he never was even considered. Question is, did PG take the STL offer because it was the best deal, or he didn't want to trade Halak within the conference??? this was also reported at the time. I rarely listen to McGuire - mainly because i can't stand the guy, but there were a LOt of other reporting that the deal was quietly done and Halak wasn't shopped widely. Now that we've destroyed McGuire's myth on the Halak deal. What makes you think this isnt whats happened in our other trades. Ie we have one GM who says he wasnt told Cammy was available, but thats it, one GM. Seems to me that its pretty likely he was one of the 7 NTC GMs. Jason Spezza, Zdeno Chara, and Bill Muckalt for Alexei Yashin easily tops the Gomez deal. Not even close. Add to that the fact Mad Mike has about 4 other trades that on their own rival Gomez and I dont know why youd compare the two GMs. Your judging McDonough in his 2nd year, whereas Chara, Spezza and the rest are judged 10 years later. How do you know, McDonough won't be in the running for the Norris in anothe 5 years??? I also think you have to consider the cap implications of the Gomez trade. This was a guy that the Rangers desperately WANTED to move. We should have been dictating terms and getting more, not throwing our top prospect the rangers way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Question is, did PG take the STL offer because it was the best deal, or he didn't want to trade Halak within the conference??? this was also reported at the time. I rarely listen to McGuire - mainly because i can't stand the guy, but there were a LOt of other reporting that the deal was quietly done and Halak wasn't shopped widely. If it was anybody else I'd get into a he said vs he said with the media types. But its BOB F'ING MCKENZIE.... when it comes to insiders, he is the one hockey guy who is absolutely above reproach from where I stand. Bob's word as an insider is as good as gold to me. Your judging McDonough in his 2nd year, whereas Chara, Spezza and the rest are judged 10 years later. How do you know, McDonough won't be in the running for the Norris in anothe 5 years??? Even if McD is a multi time Norris winner, and captains a Stanley Cup Champion (all of which is a longshot); Jason Spezza was a 100 pt centre... I'm pretty sure that Chris Higgins won't do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 If it was anybody else I'd get into a he said vs he said with the media types. But its BOB F'ING MCKENZIE.... when it comes to insiders, he is the one hockey guy who is absolutely above reproach from where I stand. Bob's word as an insider is as good as gold to me. Even if McD is a multi time Norris winner, and captains a Stanley Cup Champion (all of which is a longshot); Jason Spezza was a 100 pt centre... I'm pretty sure that Chris Higgins won't do that. I'm not saying philly didn't call PG, i'm just saying, how do we know there offer wasn't better or accepted, simply becuase PG didn't want to trade him to a conference rival. There was a lot of talk at the time of the deal that PG didn't want to deal Halak to a team he faces on a regular basis. Fair point about Spezza and Chara both being stars, while Higgins is a journeyman, makes that particular Milbury deal worse (he is after all the WORST GM EVER!!!!). But I would still say that even if it was a straight up trade of Higgins for Gomez, Gainey SHOULD have gotten a throw in from Sather, for taking the damn contract off Sather hands. Everyone knew the rangers wanted to go after gaborik, but needed to move salary. Other deals made that teams are moving salary, GMs were able to get a good player for the willingness to take a bad contract and other then Redden, Gomez's salary was by far the worst in the NHL. At the time, i said, i don't know why you would even go after a guy like gomez, unless he was making $4M/yr and to give assets like your best dman prospect is just stupid. I also think Gainey dodged a bullet not trading the reported Subban/Price/ Pleks or Higgins for Vinny. THere were many variatons of that deal that were being reported and this was the worst one. The others were Pleks/Higgins and either Price or Subban. If any of those deals went down we would be even more screwed then we are, becuase while Vinny is clearly better the Gomez, he is signed for 10 friggin years at a $7M hit, which the actual salary really didn't come down until year 8 and we would have given up our two best current players for him. I also doubt Vinny would have done well in Montreal, since he clearly didn't want anything to do with playing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 We don't know what Philly offered, and how it compared to Eller and Shultz; but I do know that Philly re-signed Leighton and gave him pretty decent money before Halak was traded (1.55 million per year). They also had Boucher still under contract. They also traded for the rights to, and tried to sign Nabokov but refused to meet his asking price, and when he wouldn't sign, they went out and signed Bobrovsky. Everything they did that summer was focussed on finding a goalie, but doing so on the cheap... they weren't willing to make the major changes that only came this summer when they went after Bryzgalov. Until this year the Flyers operated with a philosophy of goaltending on the cheap, and I don't believe they were offering as much as St. Louis did. We also see in the Atlanta deal that Cormier was the prospect on the table and I'm pretty happy today we choose Eller over Cormier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafrous10 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 We don't know what Philly offered, and how it compared to Eller and Shultz; but I do know that Philly re-signed Leighton and gave him pretty decent money before Halak was traded (1.55 million per year). They also had Boucher still under contract. They also traded for the rights to, and tried to sign Nabokov but refused to meet his asking price, and when he wouldn't sign, they went out and signed Bobrovsky. Everything they did that summer was focussed on finding a goalie, but doing so on the cheap... they weren't willing to make the major changes that only came this summer when they went after Bryzgalov. Until this year the Flyers operated with a philosophy of goaltending on the cheap, and I don't believe they were offering as much as St. Louis did. We also see in the Atlanta deal that Cormier was the prospect on the table and I'm pretty happy today we choose Eller over Cormier. You HAVE to be related to Gauthier. All you do is defend the guy despite the evidence before your very eyes. And Eller and Schultz for Halak ? A minor league goon and a potential,hopeful 3rd liner. I would have shopped for picks. Eller will just turn out to be another overrated Hab prospect.Look what Wash. got for Varlamov. And Gauthier DID NOT shop Halak to the full extent,just like he didn't with Camm. I never here about other GMs getting complained about for not shopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Pretty basic economics at work when Halak was traded. There wasn't much of a market for goalies. Even less had Gauthier waited until July 1st when a bunch of cheap older guys would have been available (the market for goalies is still flooded, see Vokoun this year). Yes Halak is young and all that, but he had never played more than 40-something (I think it was, no time for research) games in a season. I specifically remember the market for goalies being garbage, which was compounded by Philly playing Chicago and both teams having patchwork goaltending. Teams were not prepared to bust the bank on an undersized, untested goalie following a good playoff run. Gauthier felt he HAD to deal with the Halak/Price situation (plus Halak needed an extension). So a deal HAD to be made. He took the best one. Varlamov was traded a full year later, in the next off-season. That, by definition, means the marketplace for goalies was different. Add to that that Washington didn't HAVE to trade Varlamov, but Colorado felt they HAD to make a move to shore up a goalie, you can explain the braindead trade to get Varlamov. Bottom line: if there are no teams willing to pay to acquire an asset, that asset isn't worth much in a trade, regardless of what the fans say. Considering PG felt he HAD to make a move, then Halak had almost no perceived value on the team. If he's worth a 1st and 3rd pick in a trade, then that's what he was worth to PG. So he took the deal. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 You HAVE to be related to Gauthier. All you do is defend the guy despite the evidence before your very eyes. And Eller and Schultz for Halak ? A minor league goon and a potential,hopeful 3rd liner. I would have shopped for picks. Eller will just turn out to be another overrated Hab prospect.Look what Wash. got for Varlamov. And Gauthier DID NOT shop Halak to the full extent,just like he didn't with Camm. I never here about other GMs getting complained about for not shopping. And Gauthier HAD to have run over your cat. You want to define him solely by his failures (and nitpick his successes). Very few here are defining him by his successes (and whitewashing his failures). MOST are defining him by his entire body of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I poked into this thread because I thought I'd see rumors. Instead I see post after post of what should be in the "Fire PG" thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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