Preseason GDT: Bruins/Habs

[Wamsley01]

I'm not surprised so to speak, I think most of us saw it coming. Still doesn't make it right though, that's the part that upsets everyone. There's rooting for your team to win and rooting for a player to fail - things like this suggest there's a lot more people in the latter category than there really should be. It's one thing to be frustrated as there was no public bidding war (there were multiple offers considered before the deal was done though) but the Habs are our team - shouldn't you root for them no matter what, regardless if it's Halak, Price, Auld, or Jimmy the Plumber on a tryout in goal? That's what irks me and a lot of fans scanning the reaction on some of the other boards. (Not directing this at you, just a general statement.)

Heck, if this was their way of vocalizing their boos now before the season starts, never to be seen again, then hopefully some good will come from it.

+1

[huzer]

Kind of reminds me of this thread.

Guess I'll have to mute home games this year.

[nikohab]

No goaltender can withstand this pressure. NONE!

One goaltender since the 50s retired a Montreal Canadien. All the others finished their career someplace else.

Plante, Worsley, Vachon, Roy, Thibault, Theodore etc etc etc all gone before their careers were complete.

Replaced before their time.

The only guy who survived had a .750 career winning percentage and 5-6 Vezinas and quit at the age of 31.

Halak was perfect for montreal because he can play with all the pressure and still come through victorious and a champion. Some players fold under pressure but Halak, well you know what I mean......

[Wamsley01]

Halak was perfect for montreal because he can play with all the pressure and still come through victorious and a champion. Some players fold under pressure but Halak, well you know what I mean......

Couldn't we have said the same thing about Jose Theodore in 2002?

World Junior Championship, QMJHL Playoff MVP, NHL MVP, Vezina trophy and a career playoff

SV% of .922.

More accomplished than Halak at 25. Perfect for Montreal and the pressures, right?

[Habsy]

Halak was perfect for montreal because he can play with all the pressure and still come through victorious and a champion. Some players fold under pressure but Halak, well you know what I mean......

What???????? A champion, I hope that was a tongue in cheek type of comment. Oh, and one other thing, our so called fans suck. The one's who boo anyway.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Halak was perfect for montreal because he can play with all the pressure and still come through victorious and a champion. Some players fold under pressure but Halak, well you know what I mean......

Halak had (or has) a lot going for him, but there is no comparison between making a push as a backup and wildly surpassing the low expectations set for you, and having to meet the burden of ridiculous expectations which you are then publicly flogged for not meeting. Halak was never in a pressure situation outside the games themselves. Price, conversely, was expected to be Patrick Roy from Day One and was condemned as a bust after he failed to meet that standard at an age when Roy himself generally didn't meet it. He has been publicly humiliated and scapegoated for going through normal growth pains. Halak NEVER had to face that kind of pressure, of knowing that one weak goal and he will be Public Enemy #1.

Come to think of it, Halak has never even been a #1 in five years of pro hockey. He has never had to bear the responsibility of being The Man on an ongoing basis in any city, let alone in Montreal. Instead he's been the underestimated underdog. We will never know how Halak would have fared as #1 in Montreal. One thing I do know - one slump and HE would have become the scapegoat.

Edited September 24, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[johnnyhasbeen]

Yes, it is alot of pressure for a young goalie to have to deal with, but it will be there for whoever straps on the pads for the tri-colour.

Make or break. he has to deal with it now or he wont make it here. Harsh simple truth. Tough gig, is he up for it?

That is the good of the trade, it throws more pressure on him and he has be able to handle tons of pressure, so get use to it.

I hope he is the one to rise above the pack, as others have done in the past, and handle the toughest gig in the NHL.

[Wamsley01]

Yes, it is alot of pressure for a young goalie to have to deal with, but it will be there for whoever straps on the pads for the tri-colour.

Make or break. he has to deal with it now or he wont make it here. Harsh simple truth. Tough gig, is he up for it?

That is the good of the trade, it throws more pressure on him and he has be able to handle tons of pressure, so get use to it.

I hope he is the one to rise above the pack, as others have done in the past, and handle the toughest gig in the NHL.

The only problem is that Plante, Worsley, Dryden and Roy had Stanley Cup contenders in front of them for their whole careers. Price does not, so expecting him to duplicate their glory is unrealistic.

The Canadiens have won 2 Stanley Cups in the last 30 years, which means it is about time the entire fanbase gets a reality check about what a goaltender is supposed to provide, not what they think Roy, Plante and Dryden DID provide.

[brobin]

By the way, since when is booing a player not rooting for your team? People boo players and teams in every city in this league when the performance isn't good enough. you guys act like it is a Habs thing only. Even the suits in Toronto have booed struggling players.

This booing goes hand in hand with the passion that makes overnight heroes. Anyone will tell you that when things are good in Montreal, its magical. the downside is that they will boo you just as fast. Top players work through the boos and turn them into adulation. The only one who can do that is Price. I don't think this is even approaching the treatment that Breezy got. He was booed constantly for almost nothing. I truly believe that the majority of fans are desperate for Price to give them something to cheer about, as evidenced by the warm reception he got at the game. Good goals or bad, 4 goals on 8 shots would have had boo birds out for Halak.

[dlbalr]

By the way, since when is booing a player not rooting for your team? People boo players and teams in every city in this league when the performance isn't good enough. you guys act like it is a Habs thing only. Even the suits in Toronto have booed struggling players.

This booing goes hand in hand with the passion that makes overnight heroes. Anyone will tell you that when things are good in Montreal, its magical. the downside is that they will boo you just as fast. Top players work through the boos and turn them into adulation. The only one who can do that is Price. I don't think this is even approaching the treatment that Breezy got. He was booed constantly for almost nothing. I truly believe that the majority of fans are desperate for Price to give them something to cheer about, as evidenced by the warm reception he got at the game. Good goals or bad, 4 goals on 8 shots would have had boo birds out for Halak.

There's a time and a place to rightfully boo a player - the first game of the preseason isn't it, regardless of how bad the performance may have been. Couple that with the fact he was booed in the last game he played in Montreal (in the playoffs), booed as a star in a 1-goal loss against Carolina - it's not performance based, it's personal, at least for the majority of the boo-birds. That's what makes it rooting against your team - if you boo a player at all times, you're rooting for him to fail, which is detrimental to the team's success. Brisebois' treatment was the same thing - rooting for failure, booing for the sake of booing - that doesn't help the team at all. If one calls him or herself a fan, then you shouldn't do things that hurt the team, especially when it isn't justified (like in a preseason game!)

At any rate, this debate is sure to continue for most of the season - I'd like to set up the next GDT so we can move on, but the Habs haven't even confirmed their roster let alone the lines. If anyone sees the actual Habs lineup and wants to do tonight's GDT, feel free.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

There's a time and a place to rightfully boo a player - the first game of the preseason isn't it, regardless of how bad the performance may have been. Couple that with the fact he was booed in the last game he played in Montreal (in the playoffs), booed as a star in a 1-goal loss against Carolina - it's not performance based, it's personal, at least for the majority of the boo-birds. That's what makes it rooting against your team - if you boo a player at all times, you're rooting for him to fail, which is detrimental to the team's success. Brisebois' treatment was the same thing - rooting for failure, booing for the sake of booing - that doesn't help the team at all. If one calls him or herself a fan, then you shouldn't do things that hurt the team, especially when it isn't justified (like in a preseason game!)

Well said.

J.T. captures a distinctive angle on the whole decision to keep Price here:

http://habsloyalist.blogspot.com/2010/09/consequences.html

Like I said, the Habs HAVE to start factoring in the pathological fan base when making decisions.

[Wamsley01]

By the way, since when is booing a player not rooting for your team? People boo players and teams in every city in this league when the performance isn't good enough. you guys act like it is a Habs thing only. Even the suits in Toronto have booed struggling players.

This booing goes hand in hand with the passion that makes overnight heroes. Anyone will tell you that when things are good in Montreal, its magical. the downside is that they will boo you just as fast. Top players work through the boos and turn them into adulation. The only one who can do that is Price. I don't think this is even approaching the treatment that Breezy got. He was booed constantly for almost nothing. I truly believe that the majority of fans are desperate for Price to give them something to cheer about, as evidenced by the warm reception he got at the game. Good goals or bad, 4 goals on 8 shots would have had boo birds out for Halak.

Toronto rarely boos individual players. The two worst cases I have seen were Murphy and McCabe, yet neither of those reached the heights of this nonsense.

You don't test the mettle of a fan when things are good, it is tested when things are going bad.

This is not about Carey Price to me, it is about non-sensical self serving egotistical nonsense. If you want this team to truly be successful, you have to realize that Price is an important factor. The selfish desire to punish him for a decision you may not like is childish.

You don't build somebody's esteem by degrading them. You don't accomplish anything positive by embarrassing people.

Ultimately it is your right as a fan to express yourself if you paid for the product, but booing and then purchasing another pair of tickets accomplishes nothing. It is misplaced anger and hatred that accomplishes little. If you are upset with Gauthier, Gainey, Molson or the crest, then stop watching the product and paying for tickets and merchandise.

Instead this is idiots who will boo a player because they are angry at management, destroy his confidence, scream "I told you so", then complain about the lack of return for the traded player whose confidence has been destroyed and maintain their anger with management.

[Wamsley01]

Well said.

J.T. captures a distinctive angle on the whole decision to keep Price here:

http://habsloyalist.blogspot.com/2010/09/consequences.html

Like I said, the Habs HAVE to start factoring in the pathological fan base when making decisions.

The other side of this coin is what happens if Halak fails and Price becomes an All-Star with another organization? Then what do the fans do? How do you anticipate and prepare for that?

The fans would boo Halak and rail against the organization for making the wrong decision. They wouldn't look back and look at the perspective of why the deal was made. They don't care, they are looking for instant gratification. People don't care about the history of the situation, they want something to complain about now.

You make the best decision for your hockey team and move forward. You can't take the fans ridiculous mindset into account.

You call Houle out for destroying the franchise, yet he reacted to the fans all the time. What if Savard had traded Roy because the fans voted for Racicot in 1993?

Win games and the fans will shut up. End of story.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Wamsley01

[nikohab]

Toronto rarely boos individual players. The two worst cases I have seen were Murphy and McCabe, yet neither of those reached the heights of this nonsense.

You don't test the mettle of a fan when things are good, it is tested when things are going bad.

This is not about Carey Price to me, it is about non-sensical self serving egotistical nonsense. If you want this team to truly be successful, you have to realize that Price is an important factor. The selfish desire to punish him for a decision you may not like is childish.

You don't build somebody's esteem by degrading them. You don't accomplish anything positive by embarrassing people.

Ultimately it is your right as a fan to express yourself if you paid for the product, but booing and then purchasing another pair of tickets accomplishes nothing. It is misplaced anger and hatred that accomplishes little. If you are upset with Gauthier, Gainey, Molson or the crest, then stop watching the product and paying for tickets and merchandise.

Instead this is idiots who will boo a player because they are angry at management, destroy his confidence, scream "I told you so", then complain about the lack of return for the traded player whose confidence has been destroyed and maintain their anger with management.

All fans who dedicate their time,passion and money to support their team are entitled to opinions as well communicating their likes or dislikes about the product on the ice just as long as they communicate it repectfully. Wether they are positive or negative we all have anticipations regarding players or management decisions and it's never personal. Mr. Carey Price which I respect greatly knows all too well of the pressure of playing in montreal and decided to stay and prove everyone wrong as Hal Gill stated to the media. I admire his courage and I hope to see it happen.

[JoeLassister]

All fans who dedicate their time,passion and money to support their team are entitled to opinions as well communicating their likes or dislikes about the product on the ice just as long as they communicate it repectfully. Wether they are positive or negative we all have anticipations regarding players or management decisions and it's never personal. Mr. Carey Price which I respect greatly knows all too well of the pressure of playing in montreal and decided to stay and prove everyone wrong as Hal Gill stated to the media. I admire his courage and I hope to see it happen.

Exact. We just saw a total lack of respect by the fans on last game.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The other side of this coin is what happens if Halak fails and Price becomes an All-Star with another organization? Then what do the fans do? How do you anticipate and prepare for that?

The fans would boo Halak and rail against the organization for making the wrong decision. They wouldn't look back and look at the perspective of why the deal was made. They don't care, they are looking for instant gratification. People don't care about the history of the situation, they want something to complain about now.

You make the best decision for your hockey team and move forward. You can't take the fans ridiculous mindset into account.

You call Houle out for destroying the franchise, yet he reacted to the fans all the time. What if Savard had traded Roy because the fans voted for Racicot in 1993?

Win games and the fans will shut up. End of story.

Well, yeah. I wasn't precisely endorsing the idea that they should have traded Price because of fan backlash. It's more the whole pattern of the Gainey era, including Price, whereby young players seem to have been basically left to the tender mercies of the most ridiculous fanbase in North America. You DO have to think about whether you're putting Player X in an almost untenable situation, and I'm not convinced the Habs take that seriously. I don't think this is quite the same thing as 'listening to the fans' - it's more that you might have no choice but to do so in extreme cases. Anyway, I'm still mulling this idea over. Your basic case is certainly strong.

[Wamsley01]

Well, yeah. I wasn't precisely endorsing the idea that they should have traded Price because of fan backlash. It's more the whole pattern of the Gainey era, including Price, whereby young players seem to have been basically left to the tender mercies of the most ridiculous fanbase in North America. You DO have to think about whether you're putting Player X in an almost untenable situation, and I'm not convinced the Habs take that seriously. I don't think this is quite the same thing as 'listening to the fans' - it's more that you might have no choice but to do so in extreme cases. Anyway, I'm still mulling this idea over. Your basic case is certainly strong.

I can't imagine that they didn't understand that Price would be under extreme pressure.

The downside to this fanbase is that they will bury you, but like any fanbase they will turn on a dime if Price

is able to have a big year.

At the end of the day this comes down to how mentally tough Price is. If he isn't tough, then he is toast.

[hab29RETIRED]

Toronto rarely boos individual players. The two worst cases I have seen were Murphy and McCabe, yet neither of those reached the heights of this nonsense.

Toronto fans have been BLINDLY CHEERING what at times has been an AHL quality team for the better part of 30 years. They are at times the polar opposite of habs fans seeing every offensive prospect as as the next Sittler or Gilmour. The only saving grace for the franchise was an incredibly stupid trade by Calgary when Risbrough sent his former boss Gilmour for Garry Leeman (who went throught EXACTLY the same or IMO WORSE treatment in Calgary then Thibault did in Montreal), and then a dumb trade by Page where a beat-up and limping Clark was picked up by handing Sundin on a silver platter to Toronto.

If you look at the Toronto fanbase that actually goes to the games, they are the corporate type who are at the game more as it being the place to be, rather then the game itself. The only time the fans are really into the games is during habs games or when the make beliefs actually are in the playoffs.

Toronto media on the other hand are as bad as the montreal media. The only difference is you don't have the political language grenade to deal with.

The situation with Price is the worst I can recall - but a lot of it has to do with Price being made the lightning rod for poor decisions by mgmt. Brisebois was a similar case, but even watching on TV, if i was 15 years older at the time, I probably would have been a heart attack risk having to watch Brisebois in his own end - very much like MAB last year.

Edited September 25, 2010 by hab29RETIRED

[Wamsley01]

Toronto fans have been BLINDLY CHEERING what at times has been an AHL quality team for the better part of 30 years. They are at times the polar opposite of habs fans seeing every offensive prospect as as the next Sittler or Gilmour. The only saving grace for the franchise was an incredibly stupid trade by Calgary when Risbrough sent his former boss Gilmour for Garry Leeman (who went throught EXACTLY the same or IMO WORSE treatment in Calgary then Thibault did in Montreal), and then a dumb trade by Page where a beat-up and limping Clark was picked up by handing Sundin on a silver platter to Toronto.

If you look at the Toronto fanbase that actually goes to the games, they are the corporate type who are at the game more as it being the place to be, rather then the game itself. The only time the fans are really into the games is during habs games or when the make beliefs actually are in the playoffs.

Toronto media on the other hand are as bad as the montreal media. The only difference is you don't have the political language grenade to deal with.

The situation with Price is the worst I can recall - but a lot of it has to do with Price being made the lightning rod for poor decisions by mgmt. Brisebois was a similar case, but even watching on TV, if i was 15 years older at the time, I probably would have been a heart attack risk having to watch Brisebois in his own end - very much like MAB last year.

Living in Toronto for close to 40 years, I disagree with almost all of this.

You are minimizing two great trades they made. It would be like saying Montreal lucked into Guy Lafleur because the Golden Seals are idiots.

habs fans blindly cheered a dreadful team for the better part of 6 seasons between 1999-2004. Guess who lead the league in attendance in 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2003?

The lower bowl is guilty of being corporate, but the upper bowl is as passionate as any Canadiens fan I know and they rarely boo. Price has been booed more than Toskala who was atrocious last season. They don't try to force an association with a past that is no longer relevant, they have accepted that they are a mediocre franchise, something the Canadiens fanbase has not done yet.

The Toronto media is nowhere near as toxic as Montreal. They rarely criticize the Leafs harshly and those who do like Damien Cox are turned into public enemy number 1.

You are also claiming that Price is the lightning rod for "poor decisions", but we don't know that they are poor decisions yet. What we know is that they are "unpopular ones", but so was letting half the team walk and signing a bunch of midgets. Guess who was right on that call, not us.

[hab29RETIRED]

Living in Toronto for close to 40 years, I disagree with almost all of this.

You are minimizing two great trades they made. It would be like saying Montreal lucked into Guy Lafleur because the Golden Seals are idiots.

Not minimizing those deals at all. I think those two deals were responsible for the leafs getting back to respectability in the 90's - along with Dryden coming in and getting Joseph signed. I also think the leafs stole Phaneuf trade last year after screwing up big time with the Kessel trade. I would compare the Kessel deal as stupid as the Seals dealing their first pick, but back then Sam Pollack was so far ahead of his contemporaries in understanding the importance of the draft, that the Seals (or the Kings for that matter) were not alone in not realizing the importance of the draft, like Pollack did.

Both the Gilmour and Sundin trades, along with the Phaneuf deal last year were so clearly one sided that hearing about them, they had the jaw-dropping effect, where the immidiate effect was saying WTF???? I had the same reaction when I heard about the Gilmour and Sundin (along with the Phaneuf deal last year), as I had when I heard about the Roy trade 15 years ago.

For me that has been what has been lacking from the habs front office. With the exception of the Damphouse for Corson trade, its been a long time Habs mgmt has made a deal where you could say it was a clear win and there was no question that we were a better team for it and that we clearly won the trade.

[bar]

Kovy trade.

Gorges trade.

I would say so far the Gomez trade as well.

[hab29RETIRED]

Kovy trade.

Gorges trade.

I would say so far the Gomez trade as well.

The Kovy trade at the time was seen as only a rental pickup and wasn't thought to be one that was going to help the team long-term. Given the team we had at the time, Kovy wasn't going to get us a cup and he was just a rental, that could help us in the playoffs. It turned out to be a great trade, because we were able to get Kovy signed. BUt at the time, did anyone really think we had a shot of signing Kovy long-term???

While the Gorges trade was great in that we picked up a first rounder for Rivet. at the time, it looked like Gorges was just another under-sized dman, who may be a #6 dman and while I was over-joyed we got a first round pick (wish we also moved Souray), there were still some people think it was good to give up a heart and soul leader like Rivet.

I still hate the GOmez trade - I like Gomez the player and Pyatt has been a pleasant surprise, but, I absolutely hate the Gomez cap hit. There is no general consensus at the time, or even today that it was a great trade, given the fact that we took on the worst contract in Hockey. Most people thought that Sather would have had to throw in a lot and get no return, just to dump Gomez's cap hit and it was general knowledge that they were desperate to dump his salary - just like they just wanted to dump Redden. In Redden's case, since there was no one dumb enough to take his salary, they ended up waiving him.

The difference between the examples you've cited and the three leaf trades cited above is that there was no question of how one sided they were at time they were made. In the case of the Gilmour and Phaneuf deals everyone in Calgary wanted their GM fired for making the deal, while everyone in Toronto was overjoyed at stealing an impact player for garbage. Similarly in the case of the Sundin deal, the general consensus was that while the Nords picked up a character guy, they gave up a lot for a guy that was pretty much done.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The Kovy trade at the time was seen as only a rental pickup and wasn't thought to be one that was going to help the team long-term. Given the team we had at the time, Kovy wasn't going to get us a cup and he was just a rental, that could help us in the playoffs. It turned out to be a great trade, because we were able to get Kovy signed. BUt at the time, did anyone really think we had a shot of signing Kovy long-term???

While the Gorges trade was great in that we picked up a first rounder for Rivet. at the time, it looked like Gorges was just another under-sized dman, who may be a #6 dman and while I was over-joyed we got a first round pick (wish we also moved Souray), there were still some people think it was good to give up a heart and soul leader like Rivet.

I still hate the GOmez trade - I like Gomez the player and Pyatt has been a pleasant surprise, but, I absolutely hate the Gomez cap hit. There is no general consensus at the time, or even today that it was a great trade, given the fact that we took on the worst contract in Hockey. Most people thought that Sather would have had to throw in a lot and get no return, just to dump Gomez's cap hit and it was general knowledge that they were desperate to dump his salary - just like they just wanted to dump Redden. In Redden's case, since there was no one dumb enough to take his salary, they ended up waiving him.

The difference between the examples you've cited and the three leaf trades cited above is that there was no question of how one sided they were at time they were made. In the case of the Gilmour and Phaneuf deals everyone in Calgary wanted their GM fired for making the deal, while everyone in Toronto was overjoyed at stealing an impact player for garbage. Similarly in the case of the Sundin deal, the general consensus was that while the Nords picked up a character guy, they gave up a lot for a guy that was pretty much done.

It's true that the Habs have not scored a trade comparable to the Sundin or Gilmour deals in a long time. The last one might have been the Turgeon/Malakhov for Muller/Schneider trade, and even that one saw us give up a top-2 defenceman in return. I'd rate the Muller-for-Richer deal as comparable in impact to the Gilmour trade - Muller was a key cog in the 1993 Cup run. But really, the last case of us completely fleecing someone was probably the Kordic-for-Courtnall trade.

However, the post above does sound suspiciously like special pleading to support your argument. Obviously, Gainey thought he could re-sign Kovalev. And he was right. So that trade was excellent, full stop. Gorges 'looked bad at the time,' maybe, but clearly Gainey and co. saw potential in Gorges and they were proven right. So that trade was excellent, full stop.

We should also include Garon for Huet/Bonk on the ledger of good trades in the Gainey era.

Now as for Gomez, it's true he has an awful contract, but right now it looks like we won that trade in pure hockey terms, especially when you factor in Pyatt. And there is no way the Rangers would have sent Gomez to the minors. Unlike Redden, he is simply to good a hockey player to make that defensible. And Gomez is NOT the worst contract in hockey; that dubious honour would go to Redden or possibly Huet. The Gomez contract is more like Brian Campbell's contract - a bloated salary paid out someone who is nonetheless quite a good player.

Note that I'm not trying to say Gainey was some mastermind at the trade table. The Ribeiro trade is an absolute howler that had ramifications for the franchise for years. (For instance, if we keep Ribs, we maybe don't need to trade for Gomez; etc.). But he also made good trades and there's no need to deny that or rationalize arguments whereby they reframed as somehow 'not really' good trades.

Edited September 26, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[hab29RETIRED]

But he also made good trades and there's no need to deny that or rationalize arguments whereby they reframed as somehow 'not really' good trades.

I'm not saying the habs have not made good trades - what I'm saying is that we haven't made the type of trades where there is universal agreement that we have totally ripped someone off. To me the only clear that could be declared as clear wins WHEN THEY WERE MADE, were the Muller-Richer, Courtnall-Kordic, and Damphouse-Corson deals.

On the other hand, we had a lot more one-sided crappy deals like the Savard-Chelios, Ninemma-Ribeiro, Thibault-Roy. For a team that has only had 1 top 5 pick since Svoboda, you really need to hit a home run every now and then to get that impact player or really do a great job of drafting with mid-picks. i think we may have found one in Subban, but other then that, we've done a great job of drafting bottom six type of players, but really crappy job of drafting top 3 or even top 6 forwards or top two d-men. If you aren't getting them at the draft table or though trades, you are stuck in mediocrity.

What we have lacked since the post-Roy era is that one trade that transforms the franchise. To me Kovy is a tier two impact player, not someone capable of turning the franchise around. Our best pickup has been Cammy (much better player then Kovy in terms of consistency/work ethic/attitude) and while I was shocked when we actually were able to get him, but I don't think he is that Hart candidate type player that we have lacked for a long time (again, I'm not counting a guy like theodore who had two good years), who not only is capable of being the heart and soul of the team (like Koivu was), but also can be considered as one of the top 5 or even top 10 players in the game.

Edited September 26, 2010 by hab29RETIRED

[BTH]

I'm not saying the habs have not made good trades - what I'm saying is that we haven't made the type of trades where there is universal agreement that we have totally ripped someone off. To me the only clear that could be declared as clear wins WHEN THEY WERE MADE, were the Muller-Richer, Courtnall-Kordic, and Damphouse-Corson deals.

On the other hand, we had a lot more one-sided crappy deals like the Savard-Chelios, Ninemma-Ribeiro, Thibault-Roy. For a team that has only had 1 top 5 pick since Svoboda, you really need to hit a home run every now and then to get that impact player or really do a great job of drafting with mid-picks. i think we may have found one in Subban, but other then that, we've done a great job of drafting bottom six type of players, but really crappy job of drafting top six forwards or top two d-men. If you aren't getting them at the draft table or though trades, you are stuck in mediocrity.

But it's very rare that a trade looks like a total fleecing the moment it's made. If it's such an obviously horrible move, why would a professional GM make it?

We made plenty of medium-sized moves that turned out well for us (Kovalev, Garon, Theodore, Rivet, Mike Johnson) and probably also worked out well for the other teams. @your last sentence: we got a bunch of ours through UFA (Cammalleri, Gionta, Hamrlik, Spacek) drafted a few (Plekanec, Markov, Price, Kostitsyn, Subban) and traded for a couple (Gomez, Eller). It's a better core than most. No trades with Mike Milbury necessary.