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Nov. 23, Penguins vs Habs, 7 PM


dlbalr

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Gionta is 34 years old. He has a value cause he is still productive, but he is a little guy taking a lot of punishment, injured last 2 years. Trade him now and try to get as much as you can for him. He isn't going to get any better with time. Or just wait and see, and when he gets hurt next time, he may be finished, and you get nothing. You have to manage your assets.

100%. I have huge respect for Gionta, but he is a perfect example of a guy you move at the deadline to a team with serious Cup aspirations. If he's not moved, I will be POd.

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100%. I have huge respect for Gionta, but he is a perfect example of a guy you move at the deadline to a team with serious Cup aspirations. If he's not moved, I will be POd.

Gionta has a full NTC as per the salary cap thread (you might want to give it a look before advocating we trade Briere and such).

I agree with the principle, but there is the fact that he's our captain. I think that means something to Therrien and Bergevin, especially with no obvious replacement.

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Gionta has a full NTC as per the salary cap thread (you might want to give it a look before advocating we trade Briere and such).

I agree with the principle, but there is the fact that he's our captain. I think that means something to Therrien and Bergevin, especially with no obvious replacement.

You've got me on the NTC. Although I think those can be a bit of a red herring; it seems that many players accept being traded despite NTCs.

As for his being captain, meh. Asset management.

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As for his being captain, meh. Asset management.

I think the Bergevin regime has been successful in creating a good attitude in the room. For all our making fun of his 'character' press conferences, that is an important part of a winning hockey team. The story of Chara not trusting Ottawa management when they traded Hossa right after signing him may or may not be true, but you have to think this sort of thing comes into the mind of players. Trading our captain for prospects/picks as we head into the playoffs? It could damage that good attitude in the room.

I think the point is moot anyhow, as Gionta has a young family and would probably not want a change of scenery if we're in contention at that point.

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Maybe it depends on what the return could be, of course; and (importantly) on your level of confidence in what we have in the system. Like I keep saying, I'm not entirely sure that we do have the elements in the system to contend within the next 2-3 years. If we don't, then we have to be absolutely ruthless about managing assets. Gio is a UFA next summer anyway, so in terms of "losing his leadership," it's really a question of losing it a few weeks earlier than would otherwise be the case. I don't think anyone is going to want to leave the organization, or refuse to sign with it, because we traded away a declining veteran with an expiring contract rather than lose him for nothing.

Now as to whether Gio would go, that's another question. Maybe not.

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I think all of this talk of who is the better 6th defenseman is refreshing, but I actually think the real problem is our 4th and 5th defensemen. To me having Gorges, Diaz, Markov, Subban all playing a puck first game is redundant. They are not very physical, and as a group are small. Obviously Markov and Subban bring so much to the team that we can remove them from the discussion, but Diaz and Gorges are the two that I would be talking about replacing. Or even one of them. I like them both individually, but when you include Boullion, that is way too many small defense on a team. Big forechecking teams make us look so bad in our own zone, because we have too many of the same player.

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100%. I have huge respect for Gionta, but he is a perfect example of a guy you move at the deadline to a team with serious Cup aspirations. If he's not moved, I will be POd.

If we are in a playoff position, we can't trade our captain. I wish we moved him last summer, but you can't move your captain, if you are in playoff contention.

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Guest Stogey24

If we are in a playoff position, we can't trade our captain. I wish we moved him last summer, but you can't move your captain, if you are in playoff contention.

Who wants him...
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Who wants him...

Edmonton and Florida are two teams that would have benefited from having a Gionta going into this season. Don't know if Gionta would have been willing to move his no-trade clause. I could also see yhr NJD a team that would probably be happy to take him back.

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If we are in a playoff position, we can't trade our captain. I wish we moved him last summer, but you can't move your captain, if you are in playoff contention.

I guess I'm naive about such things. I see us as about 2/3 of the way through a rebuilding process - the idea that we are contenders this season is pure comedy IMHO - so all this "we're in a playoff race and can't move our captain" stuff doesn't make too much sense to me. But look, if moving Gio amounts to firebombing the room and destroying all faith in the organization, then obviously we should just let him walk. Regardless, you bag $5 mil in cap savings, which isn't exactly chump change. It'll just be a shame not to add, say, a 2nd-rounder to our asset list all because of a "C" on the sweater.

As for "who wants him," oh please. :rolleyes: Plenty of teams would be interested in adding a veteran multi-Cup winner and NHL captain who plays hard every shift and has a history of producing in the clutch. Never underestimate the desperation of contending teams at the deadline.

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I guess I'm naive about such things. I see us as about 2/3 of the way through a rebuilding process - the idea that we are contenders this season is pure comedy IMHO - so all this "we're in a playoff race and can't move our captain" stuff doesn't make too much sense to me. But look, if moving Gio amounts to firebombing the room and destroying all faith in the organization, then obviously we should just let him walk. Regardless, you bag $5 mil in cap savings, which isn't exactly chump change. It'll just be a shame not to add, say, a 2nd-rounder to our asset list all because of a "C" on the sweater.

As for "who wants him," oh please. :rolleyes: Plenty of teams would be interested in adding a veteran multi-Cup winner and NHL captain who plays hard every shift and has a history of producing in the clutch. Never underestimate the desperation of contending teams at the deadline.

Florida, we would take him in a heartbeat, and he would slot into the Captain's role immediately. I think we could get Kulikov and a 2nd for Gionta and Diaz if they were willing to sign deals. Kulikok has size, speed, would be great on the second pp pairing and would be dynamite with Emelin. That kid is going to be the next Seidenberg coming out of FLA. Someone is going to get a steal.

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Gionta has a full NTC as per the salary cap thread (you might want to give it a look before advocating we trade Briere and such).

I agree with the principle, but there is the fact that he's our captain. I think that means something to Therrien and Bergevin, especially with no obvious replacement.

as to his being the captain, there is a long list of captains who have been traded, I remember during the houle dark days that no one wanted to be captain cause it meant you were going to get traded.

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I guess I'm naive about such things. I see us as about 2/3 of the way through a rebuilding process - the idea that we are contenders this season is pure comedy IMHO - so all this "we're in a playoff race and can't move our captain" stuff doesn't make too much sense to me. But look, if moving Gio amounts to firebombing the room and destroying all faith in the organization, then obviously we should just let him walk. Regardless, you bag $5 mil in cap savings, which isn't exactly chump change. It'll just be a shame not to add, say, a 2nd-rounder to our asset list all because of a "C" on the sweater.

As for "who wants him," oh please. :rolleyes: Plenty of teams would be interested in adding a veteran multi-Cup winner and NHL captain who plays hard every shift and has a history of producing in the clutch. Never underestimate the desperation of contending teams at the deadline.

Last time that a team that was not a contender won the Cup is as far as 2012...

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Three goals per 60 minutes of ES? Hardly damning statistics. If he plays 12 minutes, that's a goal every game and a half. That's not bad for a number 6/7 defensemen.

I'd like to see statistical genius Andrew Berkshire make business decisions based on statistics. I made that observation on his site and was promptly blocked. No one in the hockey community knows their asshole from their elbow about statistics; there's a good argument out there that hockey is a team game, and all this nonsense is moot. That opinion is shared by 30 GMs in the national hockey league. Seriously, we're one advanced state away from Behindthenet yelling that statistics in hockey are "a series of tubes." If you're from the US, you Understand that reference if not:

Put Subban with Murray, and Gill with Frankie Boo, and we'll see those "stats" even out.

Your argument that no one in the NHL is using advanced stats is just silly.

90% of the teams in the league are using advanced stats today.

Are advanced stats the be all and end all? No, and I've never said that they are. However they are a tool that should be used in addition to, and as a compliment to traditional scouting. They don't replace it. But they are absolutely something that can help.

This idea that they are useless is just as misguided as the idea of saying that they are all you need to look at.

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100%. I have huge respect for Gionta, but he is a perfect example of a guy you move at the deadline to a team with serious Cup aspirations. If he's not moved, I will be POd.

How many playoff teams (Even those with UFA captains) trade said captain at the trade deadline?

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as to his being the captain, there is a long list of captains who have been traded, I remember during the houle dark days that no one wanted to be captain cause it meant you were going to get traded.

And do we want the current regime to revisit that mindset? Bergevin places a large premium on character - maybe too much - and this makes me think he'll probably stick with the team leaders heading into the playoffs. Especially if the return is something like a second round pick - is that really worth messing with the room?

Last time that a team that was not a contender won the Cup is as far as 2012...

The Kings were a pre-season favourite that struggled during the year - the struggles were the surprise as opposed to the playoff success.

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Look, like I say above, if it is some kind of credibility-shattering, organization-destroying move to trade your soon-to-be UFA captain, then obviously we shouldn't do it.

If the issue is rather that it is wrong to remove your captain when you're clinging to the last playoff spot, then I'm less impressed. What are we saying, the team will fall apart without Brian Gionta? Then that's pretty grim news, because he'll probably be gone come July anyway.

I get the idea that "once you're in the playoffs, anything can happen." Sure. I also get the idea that this team has very little chance of making a deep run unless Price plays absolutely out of his mind AND the other teams' goalies reliably stink out the joint. I just do not believe that a team with Briere, DD, Gio, and Gally in the top 9 is going to succeed against the clutching-and-grabbing, thuggish behemoths of the league come playoff time. Nor do we have the star talent to compensate for this weakness. We're simply not constructed to seriously contend this season (and I'll bet Bergevin, in an honest moment, would say the same thing). In that situation, it's poor asset management not to try to ship out impending UFAs whom you have no interest in re-signing, for valuable assets.

Now, maybe the return will be too modest to outweigh the benefits of keeping Gio around. That's fair. But I think a 2nd-round pick is easily within the realm of possibility...and again, this assumes Gio is willing to go.

I saw this team cling to Souray when he could have yielded a tremendous deadline return, in a year when we has zero chance of winning; then ship out Huet despite Price being completely raw, in a year when we actually did have a chance. Come on. Let's have some serious asset management for a change.

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And do we want the current regime to revisit that mindset? Bergevin places a large premium on character - maybe too much - and this makes me think he'll probably stick with the team leaders heading into the playoffs. Especially if the return is something like a second round pick - is that really worth messing with the room?

The Kings were a pre-season favourite that struggled during the year - the struggles were the surprise as opposed to the playoff success.

I don't remember this. At all. I believe Canucks were the offseason favourite. And Boston in the East.

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I don't remember this. At all. I believe Canucks were the offseason favourite. And Boston in the East.

The Kings had just acquired Richards - a 'win now' move. A quick google shows them near the top of the Western Conference in any prediction you'll find.

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Even if you don't win the cup. Does Gio help you win an additional round? Does Gio help get you a little farther?

Is the second round pick worth it? Or would you rather give playoff experience to guys like Pacioretty (not even a full series of experience yet), Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Bournival, Price, Eller, Emelin, Diaz, and the rest of our squad who have limited playoff success so far in their careers? That may not have a tangible value, but is the intangible value better than a 2nd round pick?

I think it is important to get this playoff experience.

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Look, like I say above, if it is some kind of credibility-shattering, organization-destroying move to trade your soon-to-be UFA captain, then obviously we shouldn't do it.

If the issue is rather that it is wrong to remove your captain when you're clinging to the last playoff spot, then I'm less impressed. What are we saying, the team will fall apart without Brian Gionta? Then that's pretty grim news, because he'll probably be gone come July anyway.

I get the idea that "once you're in the playoffs, anything can happen." Sure. I also get the idea that this team has very little chance of making a deep run unless Price plays absolutely out of his mind AND the other teams' goalies reliably stink out the joint. I just do not believe that a team with Briere, DD, Gio, and Gally in the top 9 is going to succeed against the clutching-and-grabbing, thuggish behemoths of the league come playoff time. Nor do we have the star talent to compensate for this weakness. We're simply not constructed to seriously contend this season (and I'll bet Bergevin, in an honest moment, would say the same thing). In that situation, it's poor asset management not to try to ship out impending UFAs whom you have no interest in re-signing, for valuable assets.

Now, maybe the return will be too modest to outweigh the benefits of keeping Gio around. That's fair. But I think a 2nd-round pick is easily within the realm of possibility...and again, this assumes Gio is willing to go.

I saw this team cling to Souray when he could have yielded a tremendous deadline return, in a year when we has zero chance of winning; then ship out Huet despite Price being completely raw, in a year when we actually did have a chance. Come on. Let's have some serious asset management for a change.

You're sort of contructing strawmen here, Cucumber. No one thinks the team will collapse without Gio or any apocalyptic scenario will ensue, but you are sending a message to the players that 'this isn't the year'. Regardless of whether upper management believes that in their more lucid moments, the players in the room feel strongly about it. That kind of move worked alright for San Jose last year, but they already had a veteran core in place and plenty of experience. Like Commandant says, our young players don't have this experience yet. Isn't that worth something in itself? I see Gionta as being one of the few older players who is also a true leader - perhaps the only one. He certainly has something to impart to our younger guys in the playoffs, even if he does end up leaving afterwards.

It's important not to look at it as 'just a few weeks' - it's the most important few weeks of the year, that the team has been working towards for a long season. The captain is a vital part of that.

The Souray example seems like a reasonable parallel (the Huet one not so much). It's worth noting that we tried to keep him during the summer. I don't think Gionta would net as large a return, anyways.

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Hmmm. The experience argument is a good one. The others - "don't send a bad message, etc." - I find less persuasive; players aren't babies, and for God's sake we're trying to build a champion here. But if Gio fetches only a modest return in lieu of helping us give young players valuable experience, then that would certainly validate keeping him.

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Hmmm. The experience argument is a good one. The others - "don't send a bad message, etc." - I find less persuasive; players aren't babies, and for God's sake we're trying to build a champion here. But if Gio fetches only a modest return in lieu of helping us give young players valuable experience, then that would certainly validate keeping him.

I must disagree. Management signaling is vital in any business, let alone a competitive sport such as Hockey. These NHL players are competitive by nature, 99% of them were able to rise above because of their mentality. There are a lot of people out there that could have the same set of skills of the average NHL player, what separates them is the winning mentality, the competitive mindset.

By trading the captain at the deadline for a 2nd round, you are saying to these guys "listen, you guys aren't just capable this year". That could mean turmoil in the lock room. This is suicide, specially if you team is playoff bound. But the outcome won't be revealed up until the next seasons, because if the players believe the manager has no confidence on them, no matter what he says, there will always be doubts. YOu see, in my view, there is a compound negative effect on the team. In Hockey, run an extra mile out of motivation could be a difference between a Stanley Cup and a second place. For this reason, I believe incredibly wrong to trade the captain in a playoff bound team.

Another thing, in a team like ours, we are definitely "trending up" in the short run. I mean, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, MaxPac, Subban, Price and Bournival still have place to grow, do not forget that. So, yeah, in April we will be definitely better than we are now.

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