Meller93 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 The main reason the team is going to be improved is because we expect Carey Price to play more than 12 games. ... I don't know if Bergevin deserves too much credit for that. Radulov Shaw added to the RW depth will certainly help. Muller was also a great hire. In isolation I think those moves will all contribute. I truly think MB hasn't done a bad job outside the Subban trade, and it's making people (somewhat justifiably) paint him as an overall bad GM. I actually think Weber could fit the team better than Subban; perhaps we are better right now just because of some team/player dynamic, not the quality of the player individually (I will maintain that I think Subban is the better player). So I think we still should have got more back in the trade as some have posted earlier today. Obtaining a prospect with a bright future or some quality picks would have made the trade much more palatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 The main reason the team is going to be improved is because we expect Carey Price to play more than 12 games. ... I don't know if Bergevin deserves too much credit for that. Weber, Shaw, Muller, Radulov are all good additions arnt they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Weber is not a good addition at all. Had he been free, or acquired for a reasonable return, why then I'd be delighted (except for the contract). Since he cost us a franchise player while being markedly inferior to said player, he's a terrible "add." (Not an add at all, in fact; just a subtraction). Shaw is a good addition, Radulov probably a good band-aid, and Muller is a great move. MB is like a doctor who gives you great day-to-day care and then botches your one major surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Weber just doesn't fit the mold I thought this team was trying to build around. Are we not suppose to be a speedy, quick transition team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Weber just doesn't fit the mold I thought this team was trying to build around. Are we not suppose to be a speedy, quick transition team? Not anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Weber is not a good addition at all. Had he been free, or acquired for a reasonable return, why then I'd be delighted (except for the contract). Since he cost us a franchise player while being markedly inferior to said player, he's a terrible "add." (Not an add at all, in fact; just a subtraction). Shaw is a good addition, Radulov probably a good band-aid, and Muller is a great move. MB is like a doctor who gives you great day-to-day care and then botches your one major surgery. Weber for free? My god the under rating of Weber is criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I bet if one were to comb these forums over the last three years, they would see hundreds of posts lamenting the lack of goal scoring 5 on 5 and on the power play. As much as I hate this trade, I suppose I can find something positive. Weber is a better goal score than Subban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I bet if one were to comb these forums over the last three years, they would see hundreds of posts lamenting the lack of goal scoring 5 on 5 and on the power play. As much as I hate this trade, I suppose I can find something positive. Weber is a better goal score than Subban. Yes, that is one positive, as is Weber's intimidating presence around the crease. Of course, Subban is significantly better than Weber in pretty much every other aspect of the game, not to mention younger, which is why the trade remains stupid. Weber for free? My god the under rating of Weber is criminal. You seem to have missed the "or a reasonable return" part of that sentence. But I guess those wishing to defend The Trade need to create the most cartoonish, absurd version of the argument against it, since it's so massively hard to defend in rational terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Your out to lunch bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Weber just doesn't fit the mold I thought this team was trying to build around. Are we not suppose to be a speedy, quick transition team? Have you watched Le Genius coach? He is the antithesis of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Your out to lunch bud There's a thing called unrestricted free Agency in which players are acquired with no assets going the other way. I think his point is that is we signed Weber as a UFA he would be extremely happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I get that Meller thanks. I don't think we could of fit both Webers and Subbans contracts under our cap. The out to lunch comment was more in response to his over the top belittle meant of Weber as inferior and a terrible "add". I honestly appreciate CC posts but I think he is being fairly narrow minded when it come to "The Trade" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Definitely agree that Weber is an addition to the team. Needless to say. A positive one at that. Subban was the subtraction. Needless to say. Somehow many agree that the team is better (regardless of the Price effect) and yet somehow it's only the bandaid that will be the difference apparently. Personally, I do wish we had signed Radulov for a couple of years though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Indeed I think it's safe to say he will probably resign with us and I think we will have the money for him after a couple contracts come off next year. After all he chose Montreal even though other teams offered him more money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Weber, Shaw, Muller, Radulov are all good additions arnt they? 1) I said the "MAIN" reason... not the only reason. 2) Weber is not a good addition, when it took a superior player to acquire him. Its a down grade. If we acquired Weber without giving up subban, great. He's a good player .... Its not an addition, its actually a subtraction to get him. MB is like a doctor who gives you great day-to-day care and then botches your one major surgery. Perfect analogy. Weber for free? My god the under rating of Weber is criminal. Wow, the point went way over your head.... I bet if one were to comb these forums over the last three years, they would see hundreds of posts lamenting the lack of goal scoring 5 on 5 and on the power play. As much as I hate this trade, I suppose I can find something positive. Weber is a better goal score than Subban. Does it matter who scores the goal, as long as the puck goes in the net. SUbban actually generates more offence, even on the powerplay, when we start counting assists. its close but its subban. 5 on 5, its not near as close. Subban generates more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I get that Meller thanks. I don't think we could of fit both Webers and Subbans contracts under our cap. The out to lunch comment was more in response to his over the top belittle meant of Weber as inferior and a terrible "add". I honestly appreciate CC posts but I think he is being fairly narrow minded when it come to "The Trade" I think you are completely missing the point. CC is not saying that Weber is a bad player. He merely is saying that Weber is not as good a player as subban today, and when you factor in age, the downgrade is even more significant. The whole idea that someone who is not as good as subban means that person is terrible, is something that people defending the trade have come up with and I'm not sure why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott462 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I got the point.. There are people that do not agree that Weber is inferior. You state it like its absolute fact that Subban is better than him when in reality it's not so black and white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Two things... when you actually argue against the possibility of getting WEber for free and how that underates him, yes you are missing the point. Neither CC nor anyone else was suggesting that was his actual worth Secondly, As someone who has both watched a fair number of Nashville games (the eye test) and has looked at the stats, I do think he's inferior. The Stats clearly show it. But sure we can argue the eyetest and never agree. I think that by the time november comes and people see that Weber has lost a step, and is not the guy he was 4 or 5 years ago, it will become obvious who the better defenceman is currently. Again that doesnt make Weber a terrible player. It just makes him inferior to Subban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 2) Weber is not a good addition, when it took a superior player to acquire him. Its a down grade. Yes sure, if see as glass being 1/2 empty that would makes perfect sense and no offense, it is just your opinion. I will stick with 1/2 full and is swap of 2 top NHL d-men, with many in favour of both actually being better (and we know Hockey Canada's choice over past few years). Oh and Messier also feels that way also, with the 2016 Mark Messier award...which is a big intangible you don't want to give any credence to it seems? Maybe because it isn't a fancy stat that can be calculated by the nerds (no disrespect to them at all) of the world, that you wont even mention it in any post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meller93 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Yes sure, if see as glass being 1/2 empty that would makes perfect sense and no offense, it is just your opinion. I will stick with 1/2 full and is swap of 2 top NHL d-men, with many in favour of both actually being better (and we know Hockey Canada's choice over past few years). Oh and Messier also feels that way also, with the 2016 Mark Messier award...which is a big intangible you don't want to give any credence to it seems? Maybe because it isn't a fancy stat that can be calculated by the nerds (no disrespect to them at all) of the world, that you wont even mention it in any post. Just curious, who picks the mark messier award? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Just curious, who picks the mark messier award? Apparently messier does. He was the greatest leader in hockey. Leadership is so important that the greatest leader in hockey, took the highest paid team in hockey, and proceeded to miss the playoffs four straight years at the end of his career. But leadership is this big intangible.... so much more important than actually being a better hockey player. Yes sure, if see as glass being 1/2 empty that would makes perfect sense and no offense, it is just your opinion. I will stick with 1/2 full and is swap of 2 top NHL d-men, with many in favour of both actually being better (and we know Hockey Canada's choice over past few years). Oh and Messier also feels that way also, with the 2016 Mark Messier award...which is a big intangible you don't want to give any credence to it seems? Maybe because it isn't a fancy stat that can be calculated by the nerds (no disrespect to them at all) of the world, that you wont even mention it in any post. I give credence to intangibles. They are great. They are not more important than tangibles though and the Tangibles are that subban is better. The intangible is the cherry on top of the sundae.... it doesn't replace the ice cream, the glass that holds it, the hot sauce, the sprinkles, etc... Or in simpler terms.... Winning the Norris vs Winning the Messier award. An award for tangible play on the ice vs an award for intangibles. I'm sure the Senators will soon be trading non-Messier winner Karlsson for the intangibles of Messier winner Shane Doan. Also the Kings find their winner, Dustin Brown, to be far more important than Drew Doughty. His leadership and intangibles were so great in the former Messier winner, that they stripped him of the Captains C. As for Team Canada, sure... lets use them. I bet you think Draper was better than Crosby in 2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Apparently messier does. He was the greatest leader in hockey. Leadership is so important that the greatest leader in hockey, took the highest paid team in hockey, and proceeded to miss the playoffs four straight years at the end of his career. But leadership is this big intangible.... so much more important than actually being a better hockey player. As for Team Canada, sure... lets use them. I bet you think Draper was better than Crosby in 2006. Couldn't say as don't remember Draper in 2006 (didn't really follow NHL back then) or who else was on whatever team you are referring to, but that was Crosby's rookie season wasn't it? Don't many rookies get the shaft, simply because they are rookies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Lindros was picked for the 1991 Canada cup before he was even a rookie. Guess who was one of many more deserving players left off? Steve yzerman. Guess which other super stars were picked - Russ courtnall, Shane Corson, dirk graham. Sean friggin Burke was picked over Patrick Roy. The 2006 couldn't score and instead of adding Crosby, they went with scrubs. Unlike lindros, who hadn't even played in the NHL, Crosby was on a 100 point pace. The 2002 team included a washed out lindros over much better players. The 1998 team also had a bunch of scrubs. Patrick was passed over until 1998 repeatedly in favour of Fuhr, Ranford and Joseph, as well as less established backups. The coaching staff and management team tend to favor their on players (sather, Clark, Hitchcock, etc). The lone exception is yzerman and othe dumb from our dumb and dumber pair. Couldn't say as don't remember Draper in 2006 (didn't really follow NHL back then) or who else was on whatever team you are referring to, but that was Crosby's rookie season wasn't it? Don't many rookies get the shaft, simply because they are rookies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Rob Zamuner is better than Ron Francis (who was still near the top of NHL scoring leaders at the time and would play 6 more years in the NHL so he wasn't washed up). At least if you ask team canada brass. Talk to the voters for the Hockey Hall of Fame, and they might have a different definition of who the best player was. If you look in the Subban thread i list at least a dozen other examples. Being picked by team canada is not confirmation that one player is or isnt better than another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Does it matter who scores the goal, as long as the puck goes in the net. SUbban actually generates more offence, even on the powerplay, when we start counting assists. its close but its subban. 5 on 5, its not near as close. Subban generates more. On a team that doesn't have enough people that put the puck in the net, I value doing so pretty high. I value playmaking ability. I believe in posession stats. I do think that scoring goals is more important than touching the puck before someone scores though. It's not always a picture perfect play followed by a saucer pass to an open man. Assists are quite often just touching the puck before someone else before a guy scored. Obviously Subban has a ton beautiful plays and sets up some great goals but weber has a unique skill. Everybody knows he's gonna one time it. And they still can't stop him. having weber on the off hand high and chucky on the off hand low should make for some exciting goals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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