Is Pacioretty A Real Leader?

[lazy26]

The Americans scored 2 goals in 2 games.

1 goal was in garbage time, and Toews put it in his own net.

1 goal was scored by a defenceman.

Max was garbage. So were 12 other American Forwards.

This. There was absolutely no cohesion or chemistry with any of the forwards. The team was just built wrong.

[Guest Stogey24]

Well for one, they had that meat stick Tortarella coaching.

Calls out one of the better players on his team in the first exhibition game. Great way to kick things off

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Big Game Max. Got a big game? Who do you call first? Justin Williams? Nope. Big Game Max. He's good to put up 0-0-0 with a -1, but he comes with a cheering section full of apologists. One heck of a Captain, too.

[xXx..CK..xXx]

Well, it's a good thing you have a short memory because Max has scored some big goals for us. I'll remind you when he scores the next one. The first one shouldn't be too hard to find amongst his 35+ goals.

I'll admit that I've never really thought he stands out among other elite players but in my opinion neither did even a player like Kane, or Parise, or JVR or....

[Guest Stogey24]

3 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Big Game Max. Got a big game? Who do you call first? Justin Williams? Nope. Big Game Max. He's good to put up 0-0-0 with a -1, but he comes with a cheering section full of apologists. One heck of a Captain, too.

That profile pic is hilarious 

[Lovett's Magnatones]

1 hour ago, Stogey24 said:

That profile pic is hilarious 

I love the look on his face. It says, "I've already quit on this coach."

[sbhatt]

LOL...I also love the profile pic.  Max was bad, very bad...(he had plenty of company in that department on Team USA).

[KoRP]

Team USA's first mistake was making an idiot of epic proportions head coach. Torts sucks.

 

I like Pacioretty, I think he is a great player, and a great guy, and he was the Habs players choice as Captain, and as far as that goes, he has been the one guy that has consistently scored goals, big goals as well, for the team over the last few seasons.

 

We can't hold the team's failures over his head alone, and it amazes me that there are Hab fans that dislike him... all he has ever done was play great for Canadiens.

At least he never stood in a media event and stated "it's not my job to defend my net" like some other clown...

 

He is a part of a really good leadership core in Mtl., and a guy that's not going to hurt the team by any antics, and he's only young really, I'm glad to have him.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

No one in their right mind would 'dislike' Pacioretty - but it's yet another case of crapping on a player because of artificial expectations being heaped on his head. The exact same thing happens with overpaid players, who become hated not because they're bad players but because they're not playing up to the level of the contract. People that bash Pacioretty do so on the grounds that, first, he is a seemingly-uninspiring person wearing the "C" and second, that he is not a superstar and therefore is a "disappointment" in the role of the team's best FW. I never subscribed to the mentality that Player X is to be attacked because of what he is not, while overlooking what he is. All Pacioretty is is one of the league's very best and most consistent goal scorers. I'm inclined to agree that he's probably not a great captain, but that's a product of the timing of when the C was awarded. If it were handed out today it'd be Weber. If it were handed out 2-3 years from now it'd be Gallagher. And if it were handed out purely on the basis of actual leadership, it'd be Price, with Markov second. Patches was the "least offensive" choice. And as is usually the case, the least offensive choice is generally uninspiring.

 

As for Team USA: they operate just like Team Canada, which is to say they buy into an old-school model that prioritizes coaching supremacy over talent and creativity, but there are two differences. First, our 'old school' coach is not a complete blithering moron like Torts (who should have been out of the league for good years ago, but somehow keeps benefiting from the NHL's incestuous old-boy culture). Rather Babcock is GOOD at imposing a monolithic robotic model on his players; and second, Canada has such a massive surplus of hockey talent that no such robotic thinking will prevent that talent from beating most opponents on most nights. In any case, any team that leaves Kessel off its roster deserves to lose.

[Commandant]

17 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Well, it's a good thing you have a short memory because Max has scored some big goals for us. I'll remind you when he scores the next one. The first one shouldn't be too hard to find amongst his 35+ goals.

I'll admit that I've never really thought he stands out among other elite players but in my opinion neither did even a player like Kane, or Parise, or JVR or....

 

The entire USA team played like garbage.

 

They scored 4 goals in the tournament.

 

- 2 were in a meaningless game

- 1 was put in Canada's own net by Jonathan Toews, and was scored with 2 minutes left in a game Canada led by 3 goals.  Pure garbage time.

- 1 was scored by Ryan McDonagh.

 

 

So no US forward, not one, scored a meaningful goal in the tournament.  But sure lets pile on Max who was given 4th line minutes

 

[ehjay]

21 hours ago, Commandant said:

 

The entire USA team played like garbage.

 

They scored 4 goals in the tournament.

 

- 2 were in a meaningless game

- 1 was put in Canada's own net by Jonathan Toews, and was scored with 2 minutes left in a game Canada led by 3 goals.  Pure garbage time.

- 1 was scored by Ryan McDonagh.

 

 

So no US forward, not one, scored a meaningful goal in the tournament.  But sure lets pile on Max who was given 4th line minutes

 

I dig your post. still I am kinda out on Max da Captn... New season starting, new peeps in da room and the Mask Team leader is back so in the end he will be Way better this year then last anyway. Conserns gone

[Lovett's Magnatones]

He's garbage. Not worthy of any kind of respect.

[Commandant]

That's a ****ing idiotic statement.

 

Yes a guy who has a career high of 39 goals and multiple 30 goals seasons (and also is in the top 3 of players in GWG over the last three years) is garbage and not worthy of any kind of respect.

 

 

[Lovett's Magnatones]

Yeah, maybe it is an idiotic thing to say, but I think like many people on here and in the fan base, I'm deeply pessimistic and very unhappy with the direction of the team after the Subban trade. At some point, the league is going to have to cope with the fact that the dominant thinking (Weber being better than Subban) and reasoning of the congnoscenti is killing the entertainment value of the sport.

 

As for the Habs, I can't even feign enthusiasm for the upcoming year. I see what's going on down the road in Sunrise, and after 25 years of support, and the last five or six of following the team on a daily basis, I can barely justify being a bandwagon fan of this franchise. They're the Leafs, we just haven't come to grips with it. Treating Big Game Max like some kind of superstar is the first step. (Like the Leafs' fans with Sundin or Wendel Clark).

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Yeah, maybe it is an idiotic thing to say, but I think like many people on here and in the fan base, I'm deeply pessimistic and very unhappy with the direction of the team after the Subban trade. At some point, the league is going to have to cope with the fact that the dominant thinking (Weber being better than Subban) and reasoning of the congnoscenti is killing the entertainment value of the sport.

 

As for the Habs, I can't even feign enthusiasm for the upcoming year. I see what's going on down the road in Sunrise, and after 25 years of support, and the last five or six of following the team on a daily basis, I can barely justify being a bandwagon fan of this franchise. They're the Leafs, we just haven't come to grips with it. Treating Big Game Max like some kind of superstar is the first step. (Like the Leafs' fans with Sundin or Wendel Clark).

 

As you know, I tend to agree with everything you say here, especially the boldfaced part. In fact, I would amplify what you say here: the "cognoscenti" are failing to recognize the ACTUAL direction the sport is taking, whereby speed and the transition game are increasingly what determines victory. Meanwhile, the Old Guard keeps acting like Moar Bigger and robotic play are all that count. MB and MT are archetypical examples of this retrograde approach. Where we disagree is on two things. First, I think this team has maybe a 3-year Cup window, depending on Weber's rate of decline. But within that window, and especially this year, I think the Habs have the best chance of winning that they've had in 20 years. Radulov and Shaw are smart additions that I expect will address significant weaknesses; while Weber remains elite, so the trade is a lateral move in the short term (except on the unsettling question of the transition game. The fact that the team is looking to move Beaulieu suggests that they feel the need to "fix" this problem which was created by the Weber trade in the first place). And Price is back, most importantly. So in the short-term, things actually look quite good.

 

That being said, the Subban trade has nonetheless demoralized me about the upcoming year and the MB regime as a whole. The sheer joylessness of the entire way the organization responded to their most talented non-goalie since Lafleur revealed to me a franchise that is locked hopelessly into the wrong-headed view of the game you rightly excoriate.

 

The other way we disagree is in your critique of Max. I'm with you that he is not a superstar and probably not an impact "leader" either, and so should not be treated as one. But he IS a top-five goal-scorer in the NHL. I don't blame Pacioretty for not being a 100-point beast. I praise him for being a 35-40 goal man. If he is not up to the responsibilities placed on his shoulders (i.e., to lead the offence to a Cup) that's the organization's fault for not properly surrounding him. Not his.

 

 

[Commandant]

19 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

As you know, I tend to agree with everything you say here, especially the boldfaced part. In fact, I would amplify what you say here: the "cognoscenti" are failing to recognize the ACTUAL direction the sport is taking, whereby speed and the transition game are increasingly what determines victory. Meanwhile, the Old Guard keeps acting like Moar Bigger and robotic play are all that count. MB and MT are archetypical examples of this retrograde approach. Where we disagree is on two things. First, I think this team has maybe a 3-year Cup window, depending on Weber's rate of decline. But within that window, and especially this year, I think the Habs have the best chance of winning that they've had in 20 years. Radulov and Shaw are smart additions that I expect will address significant weaknesses; while Weber remains elite, so the trade is a lateral move in the short term (except on the unsettling question of the transition game. The fact that the team is looking to move Beaulieu suggests that they feel the need to "fix" this problem which was created by the Weber trade in the first place). And Price is back, most importantly. So in the short-term, things actually look quite good.

 

That being said, the Subban trade has nonetheless demoralized me about the upcoming year and the MB regime as a whole. The sheer joylessness of the entire way the organization responded to their most talented non-goalie since Lafleur revealed to me a franchise that is locked hopelessly into the wrong-headed view of the game you rightly excoriate.

 

The other way we disagree is in your critique of Max. I'm with you that he is not a superstar and probably not an impact "leader" either, and so should not be treated as one. But he IS a top-five goal-scorer in the NHL. I don't blame Pacioretty for not being a 100-point beast. I praise him for being a 35-40 goal man. If he is not up to the responsibilities placed on his shoulders (i.e., to lead the offence to a Cup) that's the organization's fault for not properly surrounding him. Not his.

 

 

 

Exactly the mistakes of Bergevin in the Subban trade, or the fact that Max should be the second best forward on the team instead of the first, are not things to blame Max for, or to call him garbarge and undeserving of respect.  He is what he is, a multi-time 30 goal guy, who has threatened 40, and put up over 60 points in a season.  He plays at both ends, even being a valuable penalty killer for us.  I don't know how that equates to the hyperbole of being garbage. 

 

I get being down on the team, but come on... that's just ridiculous. 

[Scott462]

What I have seen from Weber in the WC has me pretty stoked for this season. I think defensively he was Canada's best D man by a large margin even over Doughty who personally said pretty much out of no where he is constantly learning from Weber in the defensive zone without even being asked that question. When the perceived best defencemen in the league starts talking like that it means something.

 

So in the case of D zone play I would say Weber is a head of Subban by a good margin. 

 

But the awesome thing I have witnessed from Weber especially in the last game he played was his transition game he was not afraid to move the puck out and even sprang Marchand with an awesome pass to create a 2 on 1 almost resulting in a goal. Also his ability to pinch in the offensive zone to keep a play alive was on full display yesterday. What this shows is he can be an offensive puck moving D man when he wants to. He is just a player that very much buys into the system a coach works out for him and puts the team first instead of personal glory. If that means he's a robot then honestly that's fine by me.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, Scott462 said:

What I have seen from Weber in the WC has me pretty stoked for this season. I think defensively he was Canada's best D man by a large margin even over Doughty who personally said pretty much out of no where he is constantly learning from Weber in the defensive zone without even being asked that question. When the perceived best defencemen in the league starts talking like that it means something.

 

So in the case of D zone play I would say Weber is a head of Subban by a good margin. 

 

But the awesome thing I have witnessed from Weber especially in the last game he played was his transition game he was not afraid to move the puck out and even sprang Marchand with an awesome pass to create a 2 on 1 almost resulting in a goal. Also his ability to pinch in the offensive zone to keep a play alive was on full display yesterday. What this shows is he can be an offensive puck moving D man when he wants to. He is just a player that very much buys into the system a coach works out for him and puts the team first instead of personal glory. If that means he's a robot then honestly that's fine by me.

 

If Weber can indeed be an elite puck-mover, then that would certainly suggest the Habs got the better of the trade in the short run. Anything is possible; maybe playing with Josi he didn't need to use those attributes as much.

[Scott462]

3 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

If Weber can indeed be an elite puck-mover, then that would certainly suggest the Habs got the better of the trade in the short run. Anything is possible; maybe playing with Josi he didn't need to use those attributes as much.

 

You might be right about that. And it really is just a small sample size I'm looking at but it's interesting none the less to see Weber playing as well as he was against some of the best players in the world.

 

Personally I still think Subban might be better offensively and IMO is one of the best PMD's in the league no doubt about that but I think Weber might not be a slouch offensively either.

 

[Meller93]

10 hours ago, Lovett's Magnatones said:

Yeah, maybe it is an idiotic thing to say, but I think like many people on here and in the fan base, I'm deeply pessimistic and very unhappy with the direction of the team after the Subban trade. At some point, the league is going to have to cope with the fact that the dominant thinking (Weber being better than Subban) and reasoning of the congnoscenti is killing the entertainment value of the sport.

 

As for the Habs, I can't even feign enthusiasm for the upcoming year. I see what's going on down the road in Sunrise, and after 25 years of support, and the last five or six of following the team on a daily basis, I can barely justify being a bandwagon fan of this franchise. They're the Leafs, we just haven't come to grips with it. Treating Big Game Max like some kind of superstar is the first step. (Like the Leafs' fans with Sundin or Wendel Clark).

 

Like you I'm not a fan of the trade either. That being said, I am absolutely excited for the upcoming year. I fully expect the habs to do better even in part because of the trade. Not because I think Weber is better, but because I think Therrien will at least use him well; He is damn good at what he does. Muller should hopefully take advantage of him on the PP as well.

 

Add to that Radulov, who I fully expect to perform as a competent top 6 forward, with 50-60 points.

I also think while Shaw is a marginal improvement over Eller on the ice, his style of play will elevate his teammates somewhat. 

 

Galchenyuk is a year older, and by all accounts looks to be ready for a big campaign, perhaps upwards of 70 points. My guess is somewhere between 60-70.

 

Gallagher is healthy, he should put up around 60.

Price is healthy according to some solid play at the WCOH.

Petry is healthy, improving our top 4.

 

And then the young guns, Hudon, Lehkonen, McCarron, Andrighetto, Carr, Scherbak, Sergachev. You can bet at least one of these guys will be a pleasant suprise this season. There is plenty to be excited about.

 

[Commandant]

I hate the trade, but I agree that the overall roster is better today than last season due to all those reasons. 

[KoRP]

I don't "hate" the trade at all, I liked PK, but Weber is woefully underestimated by some of you here. He's 30, a true force in his own end, and on the PP, and especially when toughness counts, and yeah that still counts in the NHL. He makes this team 100% better in their own end, and above all, he commands respect. Subban.... meh.

 

All the intangibles he brings is huge, and what he doesn't bring, in antics and personal agenda, makes me stoked about 2016-17 for the Habs.

 

Even Babcock said "when Weber joins your organization, it is instantly better".

 

Analytics shmanalytics, the game is played on the ice, not on Sportsnet, not on here, and certainly not on Twitter.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Let's not get back into interminable debates over The Trade, please. Weber is 31, BTW.

[Guest Stogey24]

Please, no 

[KoRP]

47 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

Let's not get back into interminable debates over The Trade, please. Weber is 31, BTW.

Lol, ok I get it, I read the thread, and you're right...