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Coaches: like players, some are NHL quality, some not.


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1 hour ago, tomh009 said:

With the COVID-compressed regular-season schedule, it's really hard to know whether the Julien and Ducharme records are really comparable ...

 I agree ... was just pointing out that there was no basis for saying he has won when he has a NHL lineup in the regular season, and perhaps not in the playoffs.

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I think a good example of how a coach affects a team is Vancouver. 

 

They kept the same players and when a different coach came in the team responded and made a big change. 

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I will be shocked if he is not gone come next season. It’s grown more and more obvious that the Run of ‘21 had to do with internal veterans taking the team by the throat, like in 1986, rather than any coaching alchemy. 

 

To me, it’s just a question of timing. Some feel that DD is doing irreversible damage to our young guys. I worry about Caufield for sure, but other than that I think the rookies are just happy to be in the NHL and will be teachable next year, while Romanov seems to keep on truckin’ no matter what the hell is going on with the team. In short, I suspect our young players can survive another half-season with DD.

 

More important is that the coaching search be undertaken with reflection and seriousness. The next coach will be the “rebuilding” coach - he’s the one who will really shape the Habs’ future. Whomever we hire needs to be someone who can bring along young players and instil a strong work ethic and culture of accountability. He will almost certainly need to be replaced by year 4-5 of the rebuild, when the team is hopefully nearing contention.

 

I used to think it was a foregone conclusion but I'm starting to see a scenario where he stays.  I wouldn't say that's my prediction at this point but I don't think it's a crazy thought now.

 

The Habs need a rebuilding coach, one with a short shelf life as you suggested.  Why can't that be Ducharme?  He's not that far removed from being thought of as modern, forward-thinking coach to the point where he can't in theory change his ways.  He talked recently about not having the players to play the style he wants to.  If he sells Hughes/Gorton on a short-term vision to acquire certain players to let him play that style, perhaps that buys him some time.  And as much as Molson wants to frame himself as wanting to spend what it takes to win (an assertion I think some if not many would disagree with), will a bunch of lost home revenue influence things on that end?

 

I think back to Jeff Blashill in Detroit who has seemingly been on the verge of being fired for half a decade.  When they were overtly tanking, they just kept him there and now they show just enough improvement each year to justify keeping him around.  There are enough parallels that I can at least see a scenario where Montreal goes a similar route with Ducharme.  Play the youngsters more and if they're showing signs of improvement, keep him around.

 

In terms of who a rebuild coach would be in your scenario, Guy Boucher almost sounds like a logical choice.  He instils structure and good defensive habits (and this team needs that) and will inevitably lose the room right around the time where they'd want to hire the coach to take them to that next level.

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2 hours ago, GHT120 said:

 I agree ... was just pointing out that there was no basis for saying he has won when he has a NHL lineup in the regular season, and perhaps not in the playoffs.

he won more games after Juline was fired than this season, so yes, he has won when he had an NHL roster.

 

Geez Whiz! Nit picking

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Folks in CO wanted Bednar GONE after his initial horrible year in CO. Just sayin' I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Ducharme is given another opportunity. 

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32 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

he won more games after Juline was fired than this season, so yes, he has won when he had an NHL roster.

 

Geez Whiz! Nit picking

Nit picking? ... nit picking? ...

image.png

 

DD had a losing record last season ... "winning" is usually reserved for at least a better than .500 record ... IMO he is still an unproven NHL coach ... not fair to measure this season on wins/losses, but he doesn't seem to be able to get the players focused and hustling on any sort of consistent basis ... that is a concern ... it suggests to me that he does not "have the players".

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4 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

I will be shocked if he is not gone come next season. It’s grown more and more obvious that the Run of ‘21 had to do with internal veterans taking the team by the throat, like in 1986, rather than any coaching alchemy. 

 

To me, it’s just a question of timing. Some feel that DD is doing irreversible damage to our young guys. I worry about Caufield for sure, but other than that I think the rookies are just happy to be in the NHL and will be teachable next year, while Romanov seems to keep on truckin’ no matter what the hell is going on with the team. In short, I suspect our young players can survive another half-season with DD.

 

More important is that the coaching search be undertaken with reflection and seriousness. The next coach will be the “rebuilding” coach - he’s the one who will really shape the Habs’ future. Whomever we hire needs to be someone who can bring along young players and instil a strong work ethic and culture of accountability. He will almost certainly need to be replaced by year 4-5 of the rebuild, when the team is hopefully nearing contention.

100% agree.

 

we need to strike the right balance on having management that doesnt rush players up before they are ready, and coaches that don’t staple young players to the bench after every mistake, or if they don’t play like Bob Gainey.

 

need a development with accountability mindset. 

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4 hours ago, dlbalr said:

 

I used to think it was a foregone conclusion but I'm starting to see a scenario where he stays.  I wouldn't say that's my prediction at this point but I don't think it's a crazy thought now.

 

The Habs need a rebuilding coach, one with a short shelf life as you suggested.  Why can't that be Ducharme?  He's not that far removed from being thought of as modern, forward-thinking coach to the point where he can't in theory change his ways.  He talked recently about not having the players to play the style he wants to.  If he sells Hughes/Gorton on a short-term vision to acquire certain players to let him play that style, perhaps that buys him some time.  And as much as Molson wants to frame himself as wanting to spend what it takes to win (an assertion I think some if not many would disagree with), will a bunch of lost home revenue influence things on that end?

 

I think back to Jeff Blashill in Detroit who has seemingly been on the verge of being fired for half a decade.  When they were overtly tanking, they just kept him there and now they show just enough improvement each year to justify keeping him around.  There are enough parallels that I can at least see a scenario where Montreal goes a similar route with Ducharme.  Play the youngsters more and if they're showing signs of improvement, keep him around.

 

In terms of who a rebuild coach would be in your scenario, Guy Boucher almost sounds like a logical choice.  He instils structure and good defensive habits (and this team needs that) and will inevitably lose the room right around the time where they'd want to hire the coach to take them to that next level.

Great post

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6 hours ago, REV-G said:

I think a good example of how a coach affects a team is Vancouver. 

 

They kept the same players and when a different coach came in the team responded and made a big change. 

 

Not unusual for a team to get a short term bump when changing coaches, will it last is the big question. The Canucks are 3-4-3 in their last 10 games so maybe it's wearing off.  Habs don't need a short term bump.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I like DD but for the team's sake and the coaches, Kent Hughes has to make a change. I believe that for 3 reasons. 

 

1. Their play. The players seem confused and not to be

working within a successful system.

From a distance it seems the players have tuned him

out. 

 

2. The losing atmosphere. It must be terrible for the players, especially the young guys. 

 

3.  Sportwritters. Just today, Feb. 9, both Arpon Basu (The Athletic) and Eric Engels (Sportsnet) have pointed out reasons why there has to be a coaching change. These reporters follow the team as their job and as you read their articles they are making it very obvious, we can't wait any longer, too much damage is being done to the players and Montreal's reputation. Whether they bite the bullet and appoint Luke Richardson or bring in an outsider, the time

has come and they must bring some leadership and stability and bring in a new head coach. 

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Luke Richardson answered media questions today, so there is further evidence change is coming 

 

I still maintain, probably making me look like a fool, that a coaching change will not do anything without Gort-Ghes making some roster changes

 

it is not a coaching issue, half a dozen players have stopped playing for the logo and want out of Montreal regardless of the coach 

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Wideman says, it is not the coaches fault:

 

 

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25 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Wideman says, it is not the coaches fault:

 

 

 

WHAT else is he going to say ... no team would offer him a contract this summer if he publicly throws a coach under the bus.

 

Better to stick with the Crash Davis interview skills style:

  • "We’ve got to play them one day at a time”
  • “I’m just happy to be here. Hope I can help the tea,dfsv cxcclub"
  • "I just want to give it my best shot, and the good Lord willing, things will work out.”
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Seems like Ducharme will be let go this week after all

 

let’s see if the beating of the dead horse brings the horse back to life 

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5 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Wideman says, it is not the coaches fault:

 

 

What did you expect him to say, of all people??? The guy who got caught  bad mouthing a coach off the record in the past, and was black listed, because of it is going to caste blame on a coach that’s already been fired??? Really???

 

most players who may even have hated their coach aren’t even going to do do that.

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1 minute ago, hab29RETIRED said:

What did you expect him to say, of all people??? The guy who got caught  bad mouthing a coach off the record in the past, and was black listed, because of it is going to caste blame on a coach that’s already been fired??? Really???

 

most players who may even have hated their coach aren’t even going to do do that.

Petry and other have said that there is no system or that there is no solution or other indirect jab at coaching 

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3 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Petry and other have said that there is no system or that there is no solution or other indirect jab at coaching 

Don't know that Wideman can afford even indirect jabs given his past.

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23 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

Petry and other have said that there is no system or that there is no solution or other indirect jab at coaching 

 

And the reason why that is so telling is because 95% of players will say there is no problem.

 

Wideman, given his history, is the last player who can afford to take a shot at a coach. 

 

A player taking a shot at the coach is noteworthy, cause it tells you exactly what they feel. 

A player saying cliches, is just that a cliche, and might be how he feels and it might not be... we really don't know. 

 

Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of absence.

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if you want me to say: you were right about Ducharme

 

there, you can read it.

 

Still, on this forum, I still want to share my opinion that I do not think changing the coach will amount to much. There was no reason in my opinion to fire him before making the necessary roster changes that any reasonable NHL team would make when in a tailspin

 

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40 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

... I still want to share my opinion that I do not think changing the coach will amount to much. There was no reason in my opinion to fire him before making the necessary roster changes that any reasonable NHL team would make when in a tailspin

 

Fair enough ... but necessary roster changes generally are to help reverse a tailspin and win ... the issue with DD was not wins/losses but "how" the team played, or rather "didn't play".

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is not to criticize or come down on Dominique Ducharme. In life everyone has at some point just not fit in the position or place they were in and failed. That happened to DD this year coaching the Canadiens. 

 

I've been in many leadership positions in my life and I've seen other people in life be in positions that they really struggled with. Everyone wants to move up to be the "boss" but some people are much better suited to a secondary or assistant position. They struggle when they're the leader and they thrive when they're in another lower position. I think that may describe DD. He may be a great junior coach or a good NHL assistant coach but based on how he did with Montreal this year I don't think he's an NHL head coach. At least not now. 

 

The turnaround with Marty St. Louis has been remarkable. Cole Caufield has returned to what we all thought he was. A goal scorer. The whole team is structured and fun to watch again. Last night when they beat Toronto it was the first full game I've watched all year and you could see their structure and teamwork. It reminded me of how they played in last years playoffs. And it was fun to watch.

 

I know it's a short sample size but I think they've found gold in MSL. He's a leader, because the players are following him. He's a teacher because the players are listening to him and doing what he's asking of them. He's motivating because they are engaged and clearly having fun again. He's clearly brought the fun back into the game for them.

 

I feel very confident that with all the changes made since MB and the others were fired we are definitely heading in the right direction and building something that will be once again classy and very competitive. There may be some pain ahead but watching them beat Toronto last night while still missing all the players that are injured, it has to give us confidence. The fun is back. They are worth watching again!!! 

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3 minutes ago, REV-G said:

This is not to criticize or come down on Dominique Ducharme. In life everyone has at some point just not fit in the position or place they were in and failed. That happened to DD this year coaching the Canadiens. 

 

I've been in many leadership positions in my life and I've seen other people in life be in positions that they really struggled with. Everyone wants to move up to be the "boss" but some people are much better suited to a secondary or assistant position. They struggle when they're the leader and they thrive when they're in another lower position. I think that may describe DD. He may be a great junior coach or a good NHL assistant coach but based on how he did with Montreal this year I don't think he's an NHL head coach. At least not now. 

 

The turnaround with Marty St. Louis has been remarkable. Cole Caufield has returned to what we all thought he was. A goal scorer. The whole team is structured and fun to watch again. Last night when they beat Toronto it was the first full game I've watched all year and you could see their structure and teamwork. It reminded me of how they played in last years playoffs. And it was fun to watch.

 

I know it's a short sample size but I think they've found gold in MSL. He's a leader, because the players are following him. He's a teacher because the players are listening to him and doing what he's asking of them. He's motivating because they are engaged and clearly having fun again. He's clearly brought the fun back into the game for them.

 

I feel very confident that with all the changes made since MB and the others were fired we are definitely heading in the right direction and building something that will be once again classy and very competitive. There may be some pain ahead but watching them beat Toronto last night while still missing all the players that are injured, it has to give us confidence. The fun is back. They are worth watching again!!! 

 

I think those are some good comments. It is a short sample size but it is great to see Caulfield playing with a smile on his face again. There is no doubt DD had a good coaching resume prior to taking the head coaching job with the Habs and deserved the opportunity. 

 

I think DD was dealt a real crappy hand this year and I think it was tough for him to deal with after last year's success. Did he make lemonade after being given a bunch of lemons?  No he didn't and the management team realized a change was needed. It was probably good for DD's mental health to be relieved of his duties. It looks like the players enjoy playing for Martin St. Louis so far and it's always fun to beat the Leafs. So far so good but let's not win too many the rest of the year. 

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Ha. I totally agree. Win some and lose more but with very close scores.

 

Although I have to admit that the more I hear about Shane Wright being perhaps a middle six prospect, if that's true,  I'm not sure it's worth too much effort to get the top pick. If we could somehow trade away some assets in 2022 for more in 2023 I think that would be prudent. 

 

If I've heard correctly 2023 is a very strong draft with an exceptional top pick in Bedard.

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