The Q bans Fighting

[DON]

QMJHL officially bans fighting; will result in automatic ejection with possible suspension

 

QMJHL officially bans fighting; will result in automatic ejection with possible suspension - The Athletic

 

I agree is good step, not sure how most feel?

[GHT120]

29 minutes ago, DON said:

QMJHL officially bans fighting; will result in automatic ejection with possible suspension

 

QMJHL officially bans fighting; will result in automatic ejection with possible suspension - The Athletic

 

I agree is good step, not sure how most feel?

 

I have no love of fighting ... it sometimes happens organically (i.e., in the course of play) and I can accept that ... but far too often it is either pre-arranged, intended to try to intimidate or to obtain "revenge" ... IMO, there is no place in the game for the last three.

[tomh009]

And if it happens spontaneously, both players will be ejected, which will discourage it. Now, there is the scenario where you get your near-enough-to-goon player to engage the other team's star player in a fight, but hopefully they can address that through instigator rules or something.

[DON]

9 hours ago, tomh009 said:

And if it happens spontaneously, both players will be ejected, which will discourage it. Now, there is the scenario where you get your near-enough-to-goon player to engage the other team's star player in a fight, but hopefully they can address that through instigator rules or something.

No matter.

The aggressor/instigator gets ejected-fined-suspended and can add-in team fine-coach suspension and will be zero issue for any fight, no matter the scenario.

Next fight for Goon or repeat offender, bigger suspension/fine.

Basically exact same as in MLB-NBA-NFL-Rugby-Soccer-NCAA hockey or any other team sport in world i am guessing (dont know lacross).

Is time to drag the NHL into modern age, no?

 

(the WHL Owners would rather chew on glass than curb fighting I know that, not sure how OHL is leaning?)

[Prime Minister Koivu]

I am 100% on board and I hope it comes to the NHL. 
 

Hopefully Xhekaj has a lot more to his game. 

[hockeyrealist]

Don’t like it at all.  It is like taking keyboards out of classrooms b/c the future is touch screen. But only taking them out of 1/3 the schools while companies continue to crunch away on keyboards.  Are those schools benefiting their kids or forcing change where it isn’t wanted, needed and shortchanging their kids?

The Q has long been the softest and weakest of major junior leagues, save for a few stars here or there the O and W leagues are superior.  This will further entrench this.

 

Having seen sufficient NCAA games (among other leagues that have banished/don’t allow fighting) it lead to an increase in high sticks, cross-checks, slew foots and dirty hits.

The role of goon has been gradually diminished to the point of irrelevancy, due to the need for skill/speed and that was a better solution to removing the staged, inorganic fighting.

 

This move is going to lead to kids from the Q being unable to defend themselves, as the other two junior leagues are not pursuing this option, nor is the NHL.  Seems irresponsible to try to ban fighting in a feeder league, when fighting in the pro league is still somewhat requisite skill, not necessarily fighting but at least knowing how to avoid/protect.

Guarantees increase in stick related injuries in the Q coming up this year.

 

 

 

 

[DON]

I tried to make a poll for this thread, simply thumbs up or down.

But was beyond my capabilities.

 

And seems interweb responses are strongly in favour of keeping fighting in the NHL. Scrolling through heated The Athletic responses, am guessing 70%+ still favour keeping fighting.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

1 hour ago, hockeyrealist said:

Don’t like it at all.  It is like taking keyboards out of classrooms b/c the future is touch screen. But only taking them out of 1/3 the schools while companies continue to crunch away on keyboards.  Are those schools benefiting their kids or forcing change where it isn’t wanted, needed and shortchanging their kids?

The Q has long been the softest and weakest of major junior leagues, save for a few stars here or there the O and W leagues are superior.  This will further entrench this.

 

Having seen sufficient NCAA games (among other leagues that have banished/don’t allow fighting) it lead to an increase in high sticks, cross-checks, slew foots and dirty hits.

The role of goon has been gradually diminished to the point of irrelevancy, due to the need for skill/speed and that was a better solution to removing the staged, inorganic fighting.

 

This move is going to lead to kids from the Q being unable to defend themselves, as the other two junior leagues are not pursuing this option, nor is the NHL.  Seems irresponsible to try to ban fighting in a feeder league, when fighting in the pro league is still somewhat requisite skill, not necessarily fighting but at least knowing how to avoid/protect.

Guarantees increase in stick related injuries in the Q coming up this year.

 

 

 

 

 

I think your point about the Q’s standing, and how it will affect player development, is valid. Good post.

 

I always loved hockey fights, just as I loved boxing, and when WiFi pummelled Kassian, I was as delighted as anybody. But the fact is fighting (like boxing, or UFC) is ultimately indefensible given what we now know about blows to the head and concussions. The Q is being forward looking in that sense, but it’s a direction in which all of hockey needs to move, not just one junior league.

 

 

[GHT120]

7 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

... but it’s a direction in which all of hockey needs to move, not just one junior league.

 

[DON]

I dont think fighting has any correlation or impacts quality of top prospects. 

USNDP has fewer fights than the Q and are churning out tons of highly "skilled" prospects, shouldnt they all be pussies or some such worry?

Caufield cant fight a lick, should Big George/development staff be giving him pointers on fighting or defending himself (maybe they do?)?

 

 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

58 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

I think your point about the Q’s standing, and how it will affect player development, is valid. Good post.

 

I always loved hockey fights, just as I loved boxing, and when WiFi pummelled Kassian, I was as delighted as anybody. But the fact is fighting (like boxing, or UFC) is ultimately indefensible given what we now know about blows to the head and concussions. The Q is being forward looking in that sense, but it’s a direction in which all of hockey needs to move, not just one junior league.

 

 

 

I agree with much of your post but if the goal is to get rid of concussions then maybe they should ban body checking?  I don't think there is nearly as much fighting in the NHL as there used to be. You don't see nearly as much of the premeditated stuff. I don't think fighting is a big problem in the NHL.  There aren't nearly as many goons (ie, guy's that can fight and do nothing else), Reaves is a bit of a unicorn now.  Fighting does keep guys accountable, I have no doubt that you will see a lot more ugly stickwork if you eliminate fighting. I do see both sides of this debate. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

 

I found this site, doesn't have the last couple of years but the trend is obvious, .19 fights per game is 1 fight every 5 games. It has dropped drastically over the years.  I think the NHL has done a good job of getting rid of fighting without officially eliminating it. 

 

Hockey fight statistics

 

[Commandant]

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I found this site, doesn't have the last couple of years but the trend is obvious, .19 fights per game is 1 fight every 5 games. It has dropped drastically over the years.  I think the NHL has done a good job of getting rid of fighting without officially eliminating it. 

 

Hockey fight statistics

 

 

And removing it from junior leagues will further reduce it. 

 

Also in leagues like the QMJHL, you have 20 year old overagers and 16 year old rookies.  The difference in size and strength is alarming, and legally speaking its an adult fighting a minor in these cases.  I 100% support the junior leagues trying to get rid of it entirely.  Too many times we have mismatches with players that age.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

1 hour ago, Commandant said:

 

And removing it from junior leagues will further reduce it. 

 

Also in leagues like the QMJHL, you have 20 year old overagers and 16 year old rookies.  The difference in size and strength is alarming, and legally speaking its an adult fighting a minor in these cases.  I 100% support the junior leagues trying to get rid of it entirely.  Too many times we have mismatches with players that age.

 

I don't have a problem eliminating it from the junior leagues as it can get out of control there, don't think it is necessary to remove it from the NHL. 

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

21 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

I don't have a problem eliminating it from the junior leagues as it can get out of control there, don't think it is necessary to remove it from the NHL. 

 

As you note above, fighting has declined considerably in the NHL - not as a result of dumbass stuff like the instigator rule, which is never applied consistently or intelligently anyway. but rather owing to advanced stats showing the complete uselessness of goons. It seems likely that if you phased it out of junior, its prevalence in the NHL would further decline. Fighting will probably seem pretty bizarre and unappealing to kids who have come up with zero exposure to it.

[DON]

50 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

 ...don't think it is necessary to remove it from the NHL. 

And i dont understand this one bit?

Why not?

 

How effective will these sanctions be at banning fighting?
"Oh, they’ll work. An automatic suspension is an awfully strong deterrent."

 

"In its most recently available stats, Hockey Fights — a site that tracks and logs every fight — said there were 0.19 fights per game in the 2018-19 season, down from 0.6 fights per game just 10 years earlier. And fights hardly happen at all in the postseason, outside of late-game histrionics and so-called message-sending in blowouts."

 

So 2 fights/10games now...it isnt a good part of the game, it is immature and bush-league.

e.g.

"A quintessential example came in 2013, some eight months after the Arizona Coyotes’ Raffi Torres delivered a vicious headshot on Chicago Blackhawks’ Marian Hossa in the playoffs, one that left him with a concussion that lingered for months. The following season, Chicago’s Jamal Mayers immediately challenged Torres to a fight during their first meeting of the season. Torres obliged, no real blows were landed, but the issue was considered settled by both teams."

 

Whoo, cool eh!

 

Dosent get anymore childish or idiotic than that.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

40 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

As you note above, fighting has declined considerably in the NHL - not as a result of dumbass stuff like the instigator rule, which is never applied consistently or intelligently anyway. but rather owing to advanced stats showing the complete uselessness of goons. It seems likely that if you phased it out of junior, its prevalence in the NHL would further decline. Fighting will probably seem pretty bizarre and unappealing to kids who have come up with zero exposure to it.

 

I don't disagree, teams spend a lot of time looking at stats plus the salary cap has made teams think twice about wasting cap space on a guy who can only fight. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

24 minutes ago, DON said:

And i dont understand this one bit?

Why not?

 

How effective will these sanctions be at banning fighting?
"Oh, they’ll work. An automatic suspension is an awfully strong deterrent."

 

"In its most recently available stats, Hockey Fights — a site that tracks and logs every fight — said there were 0.19 fights per game in the 2018-19 season, down from 0.6 fights per game just 10 years earlier. And fights hardly happen at all in the postseason, outside of late-game histrionics and so-called message-sending in blowouts."

 

So 2 fights/10games now...it isnt a good part of the game, it is immature and bush-league.

e.g.

"A quintessential example came in 2013, some eight months after the Arizona Coyotes’ Raffi Torres delivered a vicious headshot on Chicago Blackhawks’ Marian Hossa in the playoffs, one that left him with a concussion that lingered for months. The following season, Chicago’s Jamal Mayers immediately challenged Torres to a fight during their first meeting of the season. Torres obliged, no real blows were landed, but the issue was considered settled by both teams."

 

Whoo, cool eh!

 

Dosent get anymore childish or idiotic than that.

 

What do you think would be gained by banning fighting from the NHL?  I don't think some self policing by players is always a bad thing. 

[Prime Minister Koivu]

1 hour ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

What do you think would be gained by banning fighting from the NHL?  I don't think some self policing by players is always a bad thing. 

Most fights are staged. 
 

There are “code” fights where you pay a price - often for a legal hit on a good player. Then there are fights like Xhekaj gets into where another player and him agree to a fight. 
 

Fights that arise from anger are rare. 
 

Anger results in pushing, shoving, face washing, poking, chirping, wrestling, little games in front of the net etc….

 

I’m not sure the policing angle still happens. 

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

55 minutes ago, Prime Minister Koivu said:

I’m not sure the policing angle still happens. 

 

Really? I am willing to bet that the next time someone takes a run at Marner or Mathews that there will be some "policing" done.  Toronto got pushed around by Florida last year and I think Treliving recognized that.  Not sure Reaves alone will solve that problem but the Leafs needed more grit. 

 

I think Xhekaj got into a lot of fights last year because he was a newbie and guys were testing him. Of course he wasn't going to back down. Kassian clearly started that fight. 

[Commandant]

9 minutes ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

Really? I am willing to bet that the next time someone takes a run at Marner or Mathews that there will be some "policing" done.  Toronto got pushed around by Florida last year and I think Treliving recognized that.  Not sure Reaves alone will solve that problem but the Leafs needed more grit. 

 

I think Xhekaj got into a lot of fights last year because he was a newbie and guys were testing him. Of course he wasn't going to back down. Kassian clearly started that fight. 

 

How did that work for the leafs winning, when it was Wayne Simmonds, or before him, Matt Martin?

[DON]

2 hours ago, Habs Fan in Edmonton said:

 

What do you think would be gained by banning fighting from the NHL?  I don't think some self policing by players is always a bad thing. 

Policing is the officials job, not a player...Which is the biggest issue, the 32 billionaire owners knows blood sports sells tickets. So what incentive do they have to change...until someone gets killed in a fight i suppose, they see that risk as very low i assume.

 

Like when a pitcher tosses a inside fastball at a star power hitter.

Officials step in, issue warning to both benches and next brush-back or hit batter, bad stuff will happen, ejections/suspensions/fines.

(fights do happen, but 100% of time fines/suspensions follow video review by MLB)

How do civilized folks settle a dispute... punch the other guy in the face? Not sure that works well anywhere.

(Do NFL-Rugby players police the games; not at all Competent Officials consistently do, if going with physicality has to lead to fighting. )

 

Sorry for beating dead horse, it is a topic i have pretty strong opinion on. Pro-fighting i see no value.

 

[Commandant]

Who did Vegas have to stop Florida pushing them around. Keegan Kolesar was the team leader with 68 PIMs?

 

Who did Colorado have? Kurtis McDermid had 89 PIMs in the regular season, but didn't play a single playoff game.  Weird how at the time when winning is most important, he didn't even play and they didn't get intimidated in the playoffs with him in the press box. 

 

These teams seem to be able to win without Ryan Reaves.  So let the Leafs waste their money on him.

[GHT120]

If "policing" worked the @$$holes who pull the actual cheap-shots would stop ... but the true cheap-shot artists depend on those cheap-shots as part of their raison d'etre and are well paid for what they do ... so they won't stop.

 

Most of the time what is called "policing" is just retaliating for legal hits ... there is really nothing to "police" ... it is intended to TRY to intimidate the player who threw the legal check from doing it again ... that type of "policing" has no place in the game I-M-O.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

17 minutes ago, Commandant said:

 

How did that work for the leafs winning, when it was Wayne Simmonds, or before him, Matt Martin?

 

Wayne Simmonds?  All 184 lbs of him. He was certainly willing but didn't put the fear of god into anybody. Having some toughness doesn't guarantee a cup win but not having any can make it difficult.