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55 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

PS:

 

1) Minnesota fans (who have the 9th pick) are talking about how they like a lot of players around the 15 mark (because they could get that pick from Pittsburgh)

 

2) We just drafted Cole Caufield 15th overall

Caulfueld  fell into our lap because of size concerns. Let’s continue to hope for the incompetence in drafting by other team’s so we can get a good player - great strategy.  Kinda like anything can happen in the playoffs - let’s hope for the best approach.

 

so we are essentially hoping that lots of teams make the same type of blunder as us, like when we drafted Kostitsyn at #10 in 2003 - which was one of the best drafts ever and passed on the following:

- Jeff carter take a at #11

- Dustin Brown taken at #13

-Brent seabrook taken at #14

-Zach Parise taken at #17 - because if size concerns 

-Ryan Getzlaf the big centre we have been searching for 30 years and #19

-Brent Burns taken at #20

the only teams to make out worse than us in that draft was the horrible Atlanta Thrashers who took Coburn at #8 and equally incompetent Columbus who took The talented, but flaky Zherdev at #4
 

oh, btw, this draft isn’t nearly as deep as 2003.

 

-

 

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21 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

If you can’t see the difference between a guaranteed top ten pick (with a one of the highest chances of #1 overall for a 9th place team ever), in a draft that is supposed to have a very strong top ten and the 15th to the 22nd pick we usually get, there is no further point bothering to discuss his with you.  The Rangers who were a ahead of us a in the standings and in a playoff decision decided the hamster wheel of lower picks and not enough high end talent wasn’t worth it anymore and sold off their assets to rebuild - which included a number 1 centre better than anyone we had. Why, because they had tried the overpay for old UFA strategy and being a middling team hoping to get into the playoffs and have their goaltender stand on their head wasn’t a recipe for success in a league that is getting younger.  Oh, by the way, the rangers actually had gone further and done better than us in the playoffs and beat us in the playoffs.

 

guess who also just got the 1st overall puck after picking 2nd?


You do realize the Rangers did not have a 1st round draft pick in 2013, 2014, 2015 or 2016, correct?

 

How is that comparable to the Habs?

 

We are now supposed to emulate a team who hasn’t won anything since 1994, one year later than us? 
 

You can continue to nit pick by choosing the Rangers as your model example, despite them having won nothing, and I will continue to stand firm on the reality that I’d rather be the Montreal Canadiens even in modern times than the Buffalo Sabres, Edmonton Oilers or Toronto Maple Leafs who continue to do poorly despite having tanked. 
 

Eichel is “sick of losing?” I would be too if I were on a club who only thought about the draft.

 

Also, who said anything about not believing a 9th overall is better than a 15th overall? What I am saying is that tankists would have used the same excuse (that we should lose vs Pittsburgh) EVEN IF it was a 12.5% chance at 1st overall or an 87.5% chance at 15th overall. They still would have said we should lose. You can argue that fact, but you’re not right.  

 

 

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Question: the picks on rounds 2-to-7 move spots the same as before, right?

 

I was checking a website yesterday and the deaf order between 1st round and the others was not the same.

 

confused me, but I am guessing it is just a glitch and not a change in rules 

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6 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:


You do realize the Rangers did not have a 1st round draft pick in 2013, 2014, 2015 or 2016, correct?

 

How is that comparable to the Habs?

 

We are now supposed to emulate a team who hasn’t won anything since 1994, one year later than us? 
 

You can continue to nit pick by choosing the Rangers are your example, despite them having won nothing, and I will continue to stand firm on the reality that I’d rather be the Montreal Canadiens even in modern times than the Buffalo Sabres, Edmonton Oilers or Toronto Maple Leafs who continue to do poorly despite having tanked. 
 

Eichel is “sick of losing?” I would be too if I were on a club who only thought about the draft.

 

Also, who said anything about not believing a 9th overall is better than a 15th overall? What I am saying is that tankists would have used the same excuse (that we should lose vs Pittsburgh) EVEN IF it was a 12.5% chance at 1st overall or an 87.5% chance at 15th overall. They still would have said we should lose. You can argue that fact, but you’re not right.  

 

 

So the rangers who actually made it to the finals, beat us  the last two times we were in the playoffs and actually made it to the finals in 2013/14, had a stronger tram than us (mainly because of their ability to attract UFA’s), intentionally missed the last two playoffs as part of orchestrated sell-off/rebuild, but had been in the playoffs the preceding 7 years - including going to the finals and semi finals is the same as us, who have missed 3 out of the past 5 years while not being on a rebuild?


the only similarity is that they were also built to go as far as Lundquist would take them (albeit built better than us), but decided you need more high end, young elite talent in today’s NHL.

 

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1 hour ago, hab29RETIRED said:

so we are essentially hoping that lots of teams make the same type of blunder as us, like when we drafted Kostitsyn at #10 in 2003 - which was one of the best drafts ever and passed on the following:

- Jeff carter take a at #11

- Dustin Brown taken at #13

-Brent seabrook taken at #14

-Zach Parise taken at #17 - because if size concerns 

-Ryan Getzlaf the big centre we have been searching for 30 years and #19

-Brent Burns taken at #20

the only teams to make out worse than us in that draft was the horrible Atlanta Thrashers who took Coburn at #8 and equally incompetent Columbus who took The talented, but flaky Zherdev at #4

 

 

There are no certainties in the drafts, and teams often pass on players that turn out to be good.

 

In 2003, for example, we picked Kostitsyn at #10, who was not a total bust at 222 career points, but not a top pick. Carter has scored 732, Brown 653, Seabrook 464, Parise 792, Getzlaf 965, Burns 694 -- and Perry 797.

 

Worse picks than these seven players? Florida (Horton, 421), Columbus (Zherdev, 261), Atlanta (Coburn, 232), Montreal (Kostitsyn, 222), Rangers (Jessiman, 0) Islanders (Nilsson, 118) and San Jose (Bernier, 230).  That's seven teams that could have taken Parise, Getzlaf, Burns or Perry and done much better (OK, Horton wasn't a bad choice -- but that was also #3). And that's even ignoring Eriksson, Bergeron and Weber in the second round -- and Byfuglien in the eighth round!

 

The point of this is that drafting is far from an exact science, and good players are missed all the time. If we pick at #16, there will be good players available, for sure: the question will be whether we have the skills and luck to be able to identify them.

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Rangers are a tough comparable... they are always a Panarin, Richards, Jagr, Messier, Gretzky, Graves away from fast tracking any lost season or failing organization. Lets be honest here.  We cant compare to the big apple when it comes to attracting the very very best of the UFA market on a yearly basis. They are also notorious for making big trades that alter the team all the time...

 

 

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2 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

Also, who said anything about not believing a 9th overall is better than a 15th overall? What I am saying is that tankists would have used the same excuse (that we should lose vs Pittsburgh) EVEN IF it was a 12.5% chance at 1st overall or an 87.5% chance at 15th overall. They still would have said we should lose. You can argue that fact, but you’re not right. 

 

We are in the playoffs now, and there is no going back. But, on average, a #16 pick is not that much worse than a #9. This is the chart from the dobberprospects analysis:

 

Quality-of-players-per-draft-range.png?f

 

17.2% great/elite vs 15.0%? That's pretty damn close. (Top seven are a whole different story.)

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

guess who also just got the 1st overall puck after picking 2nd?

Is this a trick question?

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2 hours ago, hab29RETIRED said:

 ...like when we drafted Kostitsyn at #10 in 2003 - which was one of the best drafts ever...

 

How bout that 1980 draft eh! Dummies.

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1 hour ago, DON said:

How bout that 1980 draft eh! Dummies.

You have to bring that up. Last time we had the #1 pick from astute trading and Friggin Grundman!  Who knows, if we picked Savard, maybe we wouldn’t have made the idiotic deal to get him 12 years too late for Chelios. Grundman followed the #1 pick strikeout with the Langway trade.

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5 hours ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

PS:

 

1) Minnesota fans (who have the 9th pick) are talking about how they like a lot of players around the 15 mark (because they could get that pick from Pittsburgh)

 

2) We just drafted Cole Caufield 15th overall

 

(1) Every team says the like players around their pick ... and are ALWAYS astounded that the player they draft was still available

 

(2) Caufield, for all his promise, remains very much an unknown ... teams had reasons for not drafting him ... some may have been because of need, but some were undoubtedly concerns about whether his obvious skill will transfer to the NHL ... as an aside, there is talk that if the Big Ten delays their hockey season into 2021 that Cole ***might*** consider heading to Sault Ste-Marie (or maybe trying to get them to deal him to a team he likes better) ... that might well be good for him

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45 minutes ago, hab29RETIRED said:

You have to bring that up. Last time we had the #1 pick from astute trading and Friggin Grundman!  Who knows, if we picked Savard, maybe we wouldn’t have made the idiotic deal to get him 12 years too late for Chelios. Grundman followed the #1 pick strikeout with the Langway trade.

 

Grundman was IMO terrible, but in fairness Langway wanted out

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I’m the last one on here to get excited by prospects. I’m probably the most veteran oriented poster on here. I’m the type who would like to have Pavelskis on my team.

With that being said, in recent posts I have seen people clamouring for us to tank and draft players like Auston Matthews. Well, just last year, we drafted Cole Caufield who destroyed Matthews’ goal scoring record for the USA “A” team in the USDP.

 

Matthews scored 55 goals in 60 games and Cole Caufield scored 72 goals in 64 games. 
 

This shows to me that 1) he will be able to put the puck in the net and 2) talented players can be available midway through the first round. Of course 1st overall is the best and something any team would love to have, but it’s not worth tanking for unless your team is absolutely dismal. I also would never cry over a 16th pick rather than a 9th, even though I would prefer having the 9th.
 

As for Caufield once again, there’s no way to say anything outside of “we can just wait and see” because from my end, I am certain he’s going to be a really good player for us, and I don’t say that about just any prospect. In fact, Subban would probably be the last time I felt similarly about one of our drafted players, and he was drafted in the second round. 

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5 minutes ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

... As for Caufield once again, there’s no way to say anything outside of “we can just wait and see” because from my end, I am certain he’s going to be a really good player for us, and I don’t say that about just any prospect. In fact, Subban would probably be the last time I felt similarly about one of our drafted players, and he was drafted in the second round. 

Hope you are right ... Habs need elite goal scoring

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1 hour ago, GHT120 said:

 

Grundman was IMO terrible, but in fairness Langway wanted out

I read an interview with Langway in the 90’s.  He wanted to be paid more than what the habs were willing to pay (there were tax considerations as well), but main reason was salary.  When you consider that Savard was gone and Lapointe followed, it made no sense to not pay him with the turnover.

washington had the same issue with scott Stevens in the early 90’s, when he wanted more money, but ownership was penny pinching (which should not have been a concern for the habs when Langway was traded).  Apparently Savard was supposed to have a deal worked out for Stevens and than Stevens got the offer sheet from St. Louis and the habs deal was dead.

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1 hour ago, xXx..CK..xXx said:

I’m the last one on here to get excited by prospects. I’m probably the most veteran oriented poster on here. I’m the type who would like to have Pavelskis on my team.

With that being said, in recent posts I have seen people clamouring for us to tank and draft players like Auston Matthews. Well, just last year, we drafted Cole Caufield who destroyed Matthews’ goal scoring record for the USA “A” team in the USDP.

 

Matthews scored 55 goals in 60 games and Cole Caufield scored 72 goals in 64 games. 
 

This shows to me that 1) he will be able to put the puck in the net and 2) talented players can be available midway through the first round. Of course 1st overall is the best and something any team would love to have, but it’s not worth tanking for unless your team is absolutely dismal. I also would never cry over a 16th pick rather than a 9th, even though I would prefer having the 9th.
 

As for Caufield once again, there’s no way to say anything outside of “we can just wait and see” because from my end, I am certain he’s going to be a really good player for us, and I don’t say that about just any prospect. In fact, Subban would probably be the last time I felt similarly about one of our drafted players, and he was drafted in the second round. 

Hey, Jacques Cossette, Real Clouttier, and Pierre Larouche got more points than Guy Lafleur in the Q.  We’re they better players?  Larouche and Clouttier has some good years, Cossette was done in 3 years.  
 

im hoping Caufield will pan out and be a top line elite scorer, but there are no guarantees.  But there is a reason #1 overall picks on average pan out more than mid-round picks.

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1 minute ago, alfredoh2009 said:

 

Ron Hextall rumoured to be one of the frontrunners ... he basically built the Flyers ... but Mellanby would be an interesting choice from the habs perspective ... if the owners mandate changes, especially cost-saving, he would be familiar with Habs roster/prospects and might have some "favourites" that would draw more value from him than other teams.

 

It would also open a spot for Dale Tallon on the management team ... his contract was set to expire at the end of the season, so he doesn't have the usual "paid year(s) off" option ... he basically built the Hawks Cup teams, but lost that job after his staff messed out sending out qualifying offers to several RFAs ... did a decent job with Panthers, except perhaps  the terrible (IMO)  Bobrovsky contract.

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16 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

Hmmm, I don't know what Mellanby's specific responsibilities or contributions are but I do expect that losing him would not be a good thing.

 

This summer was his 6th season as A/GM ... sometimes new blood is needed to keep things fresh ...

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On 8/11/2020 at 8:25 AM, alfredoh2009 said:

Question: the picks on rounds 2-to-7 move spots the same as before, right?

 

I was checking a website yesterday and the deaf order between 1st round and the others was not the same.

 

confused me, but I am guessing it is just a glitch and not a change in rules 

I checked the new CBA MOU (https://media.nhl.com/site/asset/public/ext/NHLPA_NHL_MOU.pdf ) and many websites and I could not find confirmation on how the phase 1 & 2 draft lotteries affected the 2nd to 7th rounds (https://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/DraftTrades/Years/2020.htm)

 

The way I understand it:

1. the order for the first 15 teams on all rounds has been determined by the play-in games and the season points

2. the bottom half of the draft order on all rounds will be determined by the playoff results

 

What I find confusing on the web right now is that draft ranking for the 2nd to 7th rounds has not been updated for the worse 15 teams . Detroit, Ottaqwa and San Jose are shown drafting 32nd, 33rd, 34th, etc on most sites.

 

Does anyone know for sure if it is laziness from the websites? or if I am missed something?

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:29 PM, GHT120 said:

 

Ron Hextall rumoured to be one of the frontrunners ... he basically built the Flyers ... but Mellanby would be an interesting choice from the habs perspective ... if the owners mandate changes, especially cost-saving, he would be familiar with Habs roster/prospects and might have some "favourites" that would draw more value from him than other teams.

 

It would also open a spot for Dale Tallon on the management team ... his contract was set to expire at the end of the season, so he doesn't have the usual "paid year(s) off" option ... he basically built the Hawks Cup teams, but lost that job after his staff messed out sending out qualifying offers to several RFAs ... did a decent job with Panthers, except perhaps  the terrible (IMO)  Bobrovsky contract.

 

Didn't Tallon also make a terrible hash of the Vegas expansion draft - basically handing them Marchessault and Smith? If I were (God forbid) a Panthers fan, I'd never forgive him that one.

 

That being said, I'd have no problem with adding him to the management group. He's got a ton of experience

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33 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Didn't Tallon also make a terrible hash of the Vegas expansion draft - basically handing them Marchessault and Smith? If I were (God forbid) a Panthers fan, I'd never forgive him that one...

 

Yeah, he was one of several GMs that mismanaged the protection list concept (in fairness, they were all rookies) ... fo some reason Florida went for 8 skaters rather than 7F and 3D and protected defencemen Keith Yandle and Aaron Ekblad (as was expected) but also Mark Pysyk and Alex Petrovic ... I also recall there being some talk of them not believing Marsasault was really a 30 goal scorer (as he had just done fo the first time at age 26 after 8 goals in 49 games over three seasons with CBJ and TBL) and Smith's production had been a yoyo (20g - 13g - 25g - 15g), with the second dip coming after the Panthers signed him to a 5yr @ $5M the previous summer ... it didn't work out but there were other factors at play.

 

Two of the reasons I would like Tallon onboard are (a) he would be a hard voice for Bergevin to ignore given his many years as a GM, and status as Bergevin's former boss, and (b) if needed, he is a potential GM replacement; coming onboard would allow him to get a good look at the players and the administration. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Didn't Tallon also make a terrible hash of the Vegas expansion draft - basically handing them Marchessault and Smith? If I were (God forbid) a Panthers fan, I'd never forgive him that one.

 

That being said, I'd have no problem with adding him to the management group. He's got a ton of experience

I want nothing to do with him.  One of those GM’s that throws stupid money at UFA’.  Last year made zero sense.  They pay stupid money for a UFA goalie AND use their top pick on a goalie.

 

and yes.  He fzcked yo big time with the vegas draft.

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2 hours ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I checked the new CBA MOU (https://media.nhl.com/site/asset/public/ext/NHLPA_NHL_MOU.pdf ) and many websites and I could not find confirmation on how the phase 1 & 2 draft lotteries affected the 2nd to 7th rounds (https://www.prosportstransactions.com/hockey/DraftTrades/Years/2020.htm)

 

The way I understand it:

1. the order for the first 15 teams on all rounds has been determined by the play-in games and the season points

2. the bottom half of the draft order on all rounds will be determined by the playoff results

 

What I find confusing on the web right now is that draft ranking for the 2nd to 7th rounds has not been updated for the worse 15 teams . Detroit, Ottaqwa and San Jose are shown drafting 32nd, 33rd, 34th, etc on most sites.

 

Does anyone know for sure if it is laziness from the websites? or if I am missed something?

 

The draft lottery sets the order for the first round only.  Then it's regular season/playoff results the rest of the way.  The Rangers only have the top pick in the 1st round while Detroit has the top picks from Rounds 2-7.  For Montreal, if they're eliminated in the first or second round, they'll hold the 16th pick in all 7 rounds (aside from the ones they've traded, of course).  If mock draft sites aren't reflecting that, it's laziness (or they're waiting for more teams to be set).

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