sbhatt Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Not any more! Price played great tonight, but I have to see more than one great game to be convinced he's ready to be an NHL starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Wamsley, I could not make an argument that any of those B-list goalies are any better than Brodeur, Roy, etc. ..as you have asked OSM. Obviously that is not even a contest. But to be the devil's advocate, who is to say that those B-list goalies are less talented goaltenders than the elite, just because they havent won what the others have? As others have stated, it is a team game. I am sure there are PLENTY of goalies out there whose potential was never realized because they played behind a bad team. Would you rather have Tim Thomas in Game 7 with both teams having the exact same team or Brodeur, Luongo, Kipprusoff? Some goalies raise the level of their team. Hasek took an average Sabres team to the Finals and Conference Finals. Can anybody really claim that the 98 Czech Republic had a better team than Team Canada? Hasek outplayed Roy and that made the difference. Cujo used to take subpar teams to Playoff success all the time. The Blues in 93 knocking off the 1st seeded Hawks, Cujo knocking of the Stars with the Oilers who were a 7 seed, Cujo knocking off the Sens as a 6 seed etc etc. Goalies can make or break you. A poor goalie on a good team will be exposed eventually. So I don't believe that there are guys who never realized their potential on bad teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Yeah, their definition of 'key minutes' is what makes the stat irrelevant. Numbers from 1 goal games and ties in the third period would be more useful. Trust me you don't want to see Huets record in one goal games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBHabs_fan Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Would you rather have Tim Thomas in Game 7 with both teams having the exact same team or Brodeur, Luongo, Kipprusoff? Some goalies raise the level of their team. Hasek took an average Sabres team to the Finals and Conference Finals. Can anybody really claim that the 98 Czech Republic had a better team than Team Canada? Hasek outplayed Roy and that made the difference. Cujo used to take subpar teams to Playoff success all the time. The Blues in 93 knocking off the 1st seeded Hawks, Cujo knocking of the Stars with the Oilers who were a 7 seed, Cujo knocking off the Sens as a 6 seed etc etc. Goalies can make or break you. A poor goalie on a good team will be exposed eventually. So I don't believe that there are guys who never realized their potential on bad teams. No doubt the goalies you mentioned are elite and have something more than the Tim Thomas' of the world. The only point I wanted to make was that there is more to look at than wins, and cups, as there is a full team in front of these goalies. Hasek had a very disciplined Buffalo team with a system, in front of him. He didnt have the Czech Republic's worst team in front of him at the olympics, either. Joseph had the hardest working team in the league in front of him with the Oilers. What if Carey Price had been drafted by LA or Columbus? I think it is plausible that an elitely talented goalie like him could go years without being considered elite....despite being as talented as they come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 But Hasek has been successful in Detroit as well. And besides, the only reason Buffalo was allowed to play such a defensive style is because they had an elite goalie backing them up - the team was built around him. Is it just coincidence that all the best goalies in the league play for defensive teams? Brodeur on NJ, Luongo on Vancouver, Lundqvist in NYR, Kipper in Calgary though they've changed their style a bit, DiPietro in NYI, Turco in Dallas, etc... This is not because it's the defensive teams that make the goalies look good - it's because teams with a great goalie realize it and use it to their advantage, building a defensive team around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) No doubt the goalies you mentioned are elite and have something more than the Tim Thomas' of the world. The only point I wanted to make was that there is more to look at than wins, and cups, as there is a full team in front of these goalies. Hasek had a very disciplined Buffalo team with a system, in front of him. He didnt have the Czech Republic's worst team in front of him at the olympics, either. Joseph had the hardest working team in the league in front of him with the Oilers. What if Carey Price had been drafted by LA or Columbus? I think it is plausible that an elitely talented goalie like him could go years without being considered elite....despite being as talented as they come. I don't look at Cups and wins to validate a goalie. Those are things that put them in the Hall of Fame. They are things that make them proven winners. If you have two goalies of similar stature those type of things seperate them. Hasek was a great goalie before he won his Cup in 2002. As was Belfour before 1999. But Cups create your legacy. I don't think Barrasso, Osgood, Cheevers are among the elite of all time because they won Stanley Cups. Cam Ward has not cemented his legacy yet, but at 23 he has already reached the pinnacle of success. He could become the next Jim Carrey, but I choose to not write him off at his age. If Price had been drafted by the Kings he would be looking at a team with some of the best young talent in the league in the next 2-3 years I am sure he would have an impact. If Price had been drafted by Columbus could we not expect that he could put up the numbers Leclaire has? I also agree with BTH in his assesment in the previous post. New Jersey was a pesky team that showed flashes of potential and I don't think it is a coincidence that with the arrival of Broduer they became a power. I think a great goalie will emerge regardless of their situation, because if the team does not improve they will do what Luongo did and force their hand, or the team will improve and win with that goalie. I also do not assess goalies on wins and stats alone. I trust what I see, I assess them based on all the factors, I try to study their technique, how they perform under pressure and if they excel on the grand stage of the Stanley Cup playoffs. I also take into account their stats, but the stats don't always match. Edited February 17, 2008 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Brobin, take it away Why? Several people here have made it clear that they have already made a judgement on Huet, and many also on Price. Nothing I say is going to convince you that Huet is a solid goalie, since you have already decided he is not 'clutch". I believe he has not had much of a chance to be clutch yet, nor has he had a decent team in front on him for a playoff run. Unless Huet puts this team on his back and wins the cup (preferably with the MVP honor), you won't be convince he is a winner and worth signing. People talk about how Huet plays one goal games, but we all know that this team plays horrible with a lead. Price had a great game the other day, but do you really think he will have a winning record in close games over the long term with a team coughing up those kinds of chances and shots? Huet has won those games by standing on his head too, but at the end of the day, the team has to play better with a lead before either of those guys will have decent stats. If we don't sign Huet we better sign someone else because as good as Price can be, he has not proven he can be a starter with all the pressure. You yourself have stated that it is all on Huet, he is the starter. Until Price wins the number 1 spot and proves he can handle the pressure and the high number of games, I want a Huet or equivalent on this team. I don't want Price to be pushed too fast because we are afraid of a contract for Huet. I think we have enough cap space to secure a solid goaltending pair, and going cheap on a Price / Halek prayer is not the answer. In any case, I am going to continue to pull for both Huet and Price to play well. I am going to continue to wish the team played 60 minutes and would learn to play better with a lead (the last two games were lucky wins, they didn't deserve them, imo). I am going to remain happy that Gainey is making these decisions and not some of the people on these boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Why? Several people here have made it clear that they have already made a judgement on Huet, and many also on Price. Nothing I say is going to convince you that Huet is a solid goalie, since you have already decided he is not 'clutch". I believe he has not had much of a chance to be clutch yet, nor has he had a decent team in front on him for a playoff run. Unless Huet puts this team on his back and wins the cup (preferably with the MVP honor), you won't be convince he is a winner and worth signing. People talk about how Huet plays one goal games, but we all know that this team plays horrible with a lead. Price had a great game the other day, but do you really think he will have a winning record in close games over the long term with a team coughing up those kinds of chances and shots? Huet has won those games by standing on his head too, but at the end of the day, the team has to play better with a lead before either of those guys will have decent stats. If we don't sign Huet we better sign someone else because as good as Price can be, he has not proven he can be a starter with all the pressure. You yourself have stated that it is all on Huet, he is the starter. Until Price wins the number 1 spot and proves he can handle the pressure and the high number of games, I want a Huet or equivalent on this team. I don't want Price to be pushed too fast because we are afraid of a contract for Huet. I think we have enough cap space to secure a solid goaltending pair, and going cheap on a Price / Halek prayer is not the answer. In any case, I am going to continue to pull for both Huet and Price to play well. I am going to continue to wish the team played 60 minutes and would learn to play better with a lead (the last two games were lucky wins, they didn't deserve them, imo). I am going to remain happy that Gainey is making these decisions and not some of the people on these boards. It will be played out on the ice. Time will tell what is the right decision. I am confident in my reasoning. I want Huet to play well, and even if he continues to play as well as he has, I still wouldn't sign him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Re-signing Huet is logical but I have a feeling Gainey will let him walk. Gainey is VERY high on Price and believes he can develop very quickly. He showed this at training camp when he wanted Price to start on the big team. The logical decision would have been to keep Halak up, let Price improve in the minors and then there are no problems. But he decided to toss Halak aside to let Price develop. I really think that Gainey is going to rush him and that Price will respond every time. So the typical conservative Gainey approach seems logical. But my gut tells me that Gainey will be more aggressive in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Would you rather have Tim Thomas in Game 7 with both teams having the exact same team or Brodeur, Luongo, Kipprusoff? Some goalies raise the level of their team. Hasek took an average Sabres team to the Finals and Conference Finals. Can anybody really claim that the 98 Czech Republic had a better team than Team Canada? Hasek outplayed Roy and that made the difference. Cujo used to take subpar teams to Playoff success all the time. The Blues in 93 knocking off the 1st seeded Hawks, Cujo knocking of the Stars with the Oilers who were a 7 seed, Cujo knocking off the Sens as a 6 seed etc etc. Goalies can make or break you. A poor goalie on a good team will be exposed eventually. So I don't believe that there are guys who never realized their potential on bad teams. In Nagano, Hasek outcheated Roy. Evertime a player skated past him, he held his hand like he was a gutshot dog. He whined and dove and the refs gave him his way. I believe that Hasek's disgusting antics and the penalties which they created won the gold for the Czechs. I have hated Hasek ever since that night. He reminded me of why I refuse to be a soccer fan. All of the antics leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't care if it works, it is dishonorable and pathetic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 In Nagano, Hasek outcheated Roy. Evertime a player skated past him, he held his hand like he was a gutshot dog. He whined and dove and the refs gave him his way. I believe that Hasek's disgusting antics and the penalties which they created won the gold for the Czechs. I have hated Hasek ever since that night. He reminded me of why I refuse to be a soccer fan. All of the antics leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't care if it works, it is dishonorable and pathetic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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