Gainey

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Just don't expect Gainey to sign JayBo if we can't resign Komi. There will be 29 other teams making pitches at him, and our free agent track record has not been great.

Actually, several teams won't be able to compete due to cap issues. I don't *expect* it, but I say that IF he can't sign Komisarek (and at a reasonable rate), AND if he doesn't sign 'JayBo,' or somehow acquire some other elite defenceman without sacrificing major young talent or high draft picks, then Gainey stands guilty of horrendous asset management. The key to Boumeester is his combination of high-end talent and youth. We can reasonably pencil him both to improve on his past performance - he's only now coming into his prime - and to sustain an elite level for a long long time. That is a rare case where opening the vault and doling out massive duration might actually make sense.

And don't forget that the future of this franchise is supposed to be that kid between the pipes. If we want Price to develop properly, we absolutely must insulate him with an effective defence corps, one that can clear and rush the puck with efficiency. A new coach will help. Boumeester's talent will help even more.

This is one negotiation that Bob needs to approach with the eye of the tiger.

[alexstream]

Boston went from being mediocre/poor to cup contender in one season. Sound familiar? Reminds me of us last season. We'll see how long they can sit on their throne. I wanna go on record right now by predicting that even if they win the cup this year, they have to fight for a playoff spot next year.

[Neech]

We're not going to get J-Bo. I'm starting to think we'll lose Komi, largely due to an anecdote I read on HIO (poor source, I know). But if Komi is the guy who we saw all last season, then he's not worth 4 million.

[Habsfan]

But if Komi is the guy who we saw all last season, then he's not worth 4 million.

But he isn't. He was injured most of the season. Watch him go next year...if we let him go for a difference of 500,000$ per year, we are gonna regret it!

[ForumGhost]

Actually, several teams won't be able to compete due to cap issues. I don't *expect* it, but I say that IF he can't sign Komisarek (and at a reasonable rate), AND if he doesn't sign 'JayBo,' or somehow acquire some other elite defenceman without sacrificing major young talent or high draft picks, then Gainey stands guilty of horrendous asset management. The key to Boumeester is his combination of high-end talent and youth. We can reasonably pencil him both to improve on his past performance - he's only now coming into his prime - and to sustain an elite level for a long long time. That is a rare case where opening the vault and doling out massive duration might actually make sense.

And don't forget that the future of this franchise is supposed to be that kid between the pipes. If we want Price to develop properly, we absolutely must insulate him with an effective defence corps, one that can clear and rush the puck with efficiency. A new coach will help. Boumeester's talent will help even more.

This is one negotiation that Bob needs to approach with the eye of the tiger.

Sometimes you can't pin stuff like this on the GM. Maybe Komi has it in his mind he doesn't wanna play in Montreal anymore due to media/taxes/personal reasons and maybe JayBo won't come here for the same reasons, regardless of good offers from Gainey. It's their choice, not his.

Edited May 5, 2009 by ForumGhost

[hab29RETIRED]

Sometimes you can't pin stuff like this on the GM. Maybe Komi has it in his mind he doesn't wanna play in Montreal anymore due to media/taxes/personal reasons and maybe JayBo won't come here for the same reasons, regardless of good offers from Gainey. It's their choice, not his.

The point is that Komi's agent contacted Gainey in early December about resigning and was rebuffed at that time. If Komi does not sign now - for whatever his reasons are gainey has to be held accountable for not signing Komi when he had the chance. Considering Komi was injured at the time, he probably could have been signed for less.

[ForumGhost]

Or maybe the agent contacted Gainey looking for a quick deal knowing that his value may dip off after his injury -- which it did. Either way, there's no way his value is any higher now than it was in December.

Edited May 5, 2009 by ForumGhost

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Look, to some extent it comes back to results. No one who's read any of my posts should mistake me for a Gainey-basher. But losing two top-four defencemen in two years, without adequate replacement, is simply not good general managing. I don't see how you can argue otherwise, without resorting to excuses and special pleading. (In fact, upgrading should be our goal, not just patching holes, especially given the importance of insulating Price).

I don't see why JayBo is out of the question. Unless people know something I don't about his and his agent's inner thoughts, that strikes me as knee-jerk Montreal-fan pessimism. But experience suggests that the most likely scenario is that Gainey signs someone like Ohlund. That will staunch the bleeding, but it would hardly represent an upgrade on Komisarek. Even trading to acquire a top-4 defenceman would deprive us of assets that we would not have had to sacrifice if Streit and/or Komisarek had been handled properly. Again: weak.

Of course, this is all contingent on Komisarek walking and not being able to sign an elite UFA replacement. I'm not on Gainey's case...yet.

Edited May 5, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[ForumGhost]

I don't see how you can looks at the results only without taking into consideration the circumstances of each individual case. In Streit's case, I don't fault Gainey at all. At the time, Streit was asking way more money than anyone though he was worth. Then when he signed with NY, everyone laughed at how much he was getting paid for essentially a 2nd pairing d-man who could convert to a 3rd line forward (but he wouldn't be happy about it). It would have been great to keep him but the price tag simply didn't justify it. Only now are we seeing how important he was in our system and he did have a good season in NY. Could we have made room for that money if we had the psychic abilities to predict? Maybe, maybe not.

Plus you have to remember that since offensive defensemen like him are becoming more and more of a commodity, they are going to keep being able to demand inflated contracts. Markov at 5 mil is looking like a steal on the market today.

[BCHabnut]

Streit was not a top 4 Defenseman when he played with us. I freaked out everytime he went back for the puck. He was soft and could be taken off the puck like nothing. Don't get me wrong, He was valuable, and after Souray left, and he stepped in as the power play specialist, Gainey probably deduced, as many of us did, that the power play was effective because of Markov and Kovy, and they were making that point guy look good. That was my way of thinking until I saw how bad we were this season. I just didn't see Streit as a 4th Defenseman. He would be the highest paid 5th D in the league, if you looked at his defensive play last year.

Now in New York, he is making 4 million, and seems to be worth every penny. Scroll through last year's boards, and none of us thought Streit would want 4 million. I don't believe that 2 million rumour either. I also think you will see him playing with Mike Komisarek next year. Do I defend Gainey. No way. He needs to start signing key guys during the season, due to our inability to sign FAs. Do I think we should have locked up Streit at 3.5 to 4 million? Based on the asset in January/Febuary (the most likely time we could have signed him) No. Should he have locked up Komi this year and left all the other FAs wondering what about me? I don't know. If he locked up Komi and Kovy, it would have been another distraction, but at least our future would be secure. The second half of the season couldn't have gone any worse. But that is hindsight. At the time Gainey probably didn't want to have the distraction.

He better learn from this. Stagger your FAs, so it isn't such a distraction and sign key players during the season.

[Habsfan]

The point is that Komi's agent contacted Gainey in early December about resigning and was rebuffed at that time. If Komi does not sign now - for whatever his reasons are gainey has to be held accountable for not signing Komi when he had the chance. Considering Komi was injured at the time, he probably could have been signed for less.

Exactly! This stupid policy of not signing anyone except for Koivu during the season is the dumbest policy ever. If Detroit can sign guys during the season without it affecting team play, we should be able to do it as well!

[hab29RETIRED]

Or maybe the agent contacted Gainey looking for a quick deal knowing that his value may dip off after his injury -- which it did. Either way, there's no way his value is any higher now than it was in December.

Actually you are incorrect. His value is going to be highest on July 1- jeff finger got what $4m or somewhere around there?

Komi will easily get at least 5.5m, and there will probably some idiot GM willing to pay upwards of $6m.

Now unless Komi really as ts to stay there is no longer any inventive to sign before July 1. Given the type of year the team had, in addition to the uncertainty around the team, I can't see him signing with the habs prior to July 1.

Good GM's like Holland produce winners every year bcoz they get their key guys signed during the year, by showing loyalty to their players they are able to get their guys signed at a discount, while teams like the habs let their assets walk away for nothing.

[hab29RETIRED]

I don't see how you can looks at the results only without taking into consideration the circumstances of each individual case. In Streit's case, I don't fault Gainey at all. At the time, Streit was asking way more money than anyone though he was worth. Then when he signed with NY, everyone laughed at how much he was getting paid for essentially a 2nd pairing d-man who could convert to a 3rd line forward (but he wouldn't be happy about it). It would have been great to keep him but the price tag simply didn't justify it. Only now are we seeing how important he was in our system and he did have a good season in NY. Could we have made room for that money if we had the psychic abilities to predict? Maybe, maybe not.

Plus you have to remember that since offensive defensemen like him are becoming more and more of a commodity, they are going to keep being able to demand inflated contracts. Markov at 5 mil is looking like a steal on the market today.

Before Xmas last year Streit was willing to sign for $2m/yr. How is that asking for much money???

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Exactly! This stupid policy of not signing anyone except for Koivu during the season is the dumbest policy ever. If Detroit can sign guys during the season without it affecting team play, we should be able to do it as well!

Right. The biggest test of that policy will be Komisarek (or whatever Bob comes up with to replace him, and what that replacement costs). It's not so much that we didn't sign Streit - I agree that almost nobody foresaw him being worth what he's now paid. But it's the death of a thousand cuts. You can take each case individually and discern very good reasons for not signing ANY player. And pretty soon you end up with an AHL team. It's not the specific instance, it's the overall pattern that counts. Are we progressing? Getting better? Or are we just patching up an increasingly fraying garment and crossing our fingers year after year?

Gainey's JOB is to get the best possible players locked in with the organization. If we observe more talent bleeding away from the blueline than coming back, then we have no choice but to question the pattern, and by extension Gainey's managing. This is especially true given that defencemen, always more valuable than forwards, are especially valuable to this franchise, because the young goalies *clearly* need better insulation.

If Komisarek leaves without being replaced, we have a blueline of

Markov/Hamrlik

Gorges/Schneider (if he returns)/

Dandenault (if he returns)/

Weber/O'Bryne

...and no young D, with the unlikely exception of Weber, who you can plausibly be expected to step into the top-4 pairing on a regular basis for maybe 2-3 years. Nor is there any reason to expect any of the guys listed above except the bottom-pairing to improve. That is patently ridiculous. Throw an Ohlund or comparable in there, it's still worse that 2008, let alone 2009, both talent-wise and in terms of overall age.

Yes, it's all hypothetical. But as hypotheticals go, this is the sh!ts. If it comes to pass, the buck has to stop with Gainey. No excuses.

[Habsfan]

Right. The biggest test of that policy will be Komisarek (or whatever Bob comes up with to replace him, and what that replacement costs). It's not so much that we didn't sign Streit - I agree that almost nobody foresaw him being worth what he's now paid. But it's the death of a thousand cuts. You can take each case individually and discern very good reasons for not signing ANY player. And pretty soon you end up with an AHL team. It's not the specific instance, it's the overall pattern that counts. Are we progressing? Getting better? Or are we just patching up an increasingly fraying garment and crossing our fingers year after year?

Gainey's JOB is to get the best possible players locked in with the organization. If we observe more talent bleeding away from the blueline than coming back, then we have no choice but to question the pattern, and by extension Gainey's managing. This is especially true given that defencemen, always more valuable than forwards, are especially valuable to this franchise, because the young goalies *clearly* need better insulation.

If Komisarek leaves without being replaced, we have a blueline of

Markov/Hamrlik

Gorges/Schneider (if he returns)/

Dandenault (if he returns)/

Weber/O'Bryne

...and no young D, with the unlikely exception of Weber, who you can plausibly be expected to step into the top-4 pairing on a regular basis for maybe 2-3 years. Nor is there any reason to expect any of the guys listed above except the bottom-pairing to improve. That is patently ridiculous. Throw an Ohlund or comparable in there, it's still worse that 2008, let alone 2009, both talent-wise and in terms of overall age.

Yes, it's all hypothetical. But as hypotheticals go, this is the sh!ts. If it comes to pass, the buck has to stop with Gainey. No excuses.

You'd think that if regular guys like us could see this coming, why didn'T Bob?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

You'd think that if regular guys like us could see this coming, why didn'T Bob?

I'm trying to discern if this is subtle shot at me for presumptuousness

But taking it seriously: first of all, I'm NOT saying Bob isn't fully aware of the sorts of issues I've been raising in this thread. As I say, this summer will tell. If he signs Komi to a reasonable deal, or if Komi walks and Bob scores some coup to bring a JayBo or equivalent in here, then hey, he's the Man.

It is possible, though, that Gainey is losing the forest for the trees. You could see where it'd be easy to get caught up in each specific negotiation, in which, as I said earlier, there are ALWAYS good reasons for not signing a given player, in which it's always easy to want to keep cap space, to err on the side of caution, to defer solving problems, to rely on inferior patchwork solutions that leave your team weaker than before in the medium to longer term (hello, Lang and Schneider) etc., etc.; and then wake up after 2-3 years and realize that your team has gotten systematically weaker on your watch. He wouldn't be the first GM to make a bundle of individual decisions and somehow end up worse off than he was. It hasn't happened yet, but the signs are slightly worrisome at least when it comes to the D.

Edited May 6, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Chris]

In regards to the D only Markov really even deserves to be back. In case people didn't watch they were possibly the worst D team in the league. So not resigning those clowns doesn't bother me at all.

Weber i think is a lock, most likely paired with Hamrlik.

Who can play with Markov? Boumeester, Komi, Morris, Witt, all are RD and UFA.

Which leaves Gorges Maybe Emelin, if know one else has signed.

O'turtle in Hamilton or a #7.

I think Subban can be a wild card.

One thing for sure is going younger may not be better, but it couldn't be worse. Plus Emeiln, Weber and Subban are significantly better skaters then Schneider, Brisby, O'turtle and Komi. Which may help getting the puck out of there own end.

So BG has some work to be done, but if Komi walks he walks, he can be replaced. So can Koivu, Kovalev and many other under achievers. BG has alot of money to spend.

[saskhab]

Witt signed an extension with the Islanders a long time ago... maybe in training camp. And then he proceeded to be awful, but he was on an awful team. He's slower than Komi, and not as good, but maybe value wise he's better, I don't know.

We need a top pairing guy for sure. I'm with CC on this... if Bob can't sign Komi for a good rate, and then strikes out on a replacement, that's poor asset management. Bob did well the last time this came up with Souray/Hamrlik, even if I thought it was too high for Hamrlik. In the end, a million or so overpaying isn't a huge problem... it'd be a huge problem if Komisarek was signed for $5.5m and then proceeded to play like a $3m or less guy for the majority of his contract.

I do agree with Chris... our defensive mobility must improve, and that can be done by incraments internally. Weber being a regular isn't going to save us, but it can help us in some areas, while hurting us at times. But I'll take what he can bring to the table as a rookie over what we'd be giving up. It may not be better than this past year, but it's potentially the start of something better in the long run. I'm cool with that.

[alexstream]

fwiw, someone over the radio said the other day that price would go down at this summer overbidding festival (aka UFA season).

[Habsfan]

fwiw, someone over the radio said the other day that price would go down at this summer overbidding festival (aka UFA season).

According to a couple of GM's, the value for Komisarek has gone down over this season. They said that they wouldn't pay more than 5 million$ per season for him!

Heard it on the team 990 yesterday afternoon!

If we could get Komi signed for 4.5 million$ per year for 5 or 6 years, I think it would be a fair deal for everyone!

Edited May 6, 2009 by Habsfan

[Habitforming]

According to a couple og GM's, the value for Komisarek has gone down over this season. They said that they wouldn't pay more than 5 million$ per season for him!

Heard it on the team 990 yesterday afternoon!

If we could get Komi signed for 4.5 million$ per year for 5 or 6 years, I think it would be a fair deal for everyone!

Sounds good in theory, but all it takes is one loud, obnoxious GM with a crap load of cap space on a mission (enter Burke) and then your price has risen dramatically.

The reason I chose Burke is not only because he has the space, but he also has a young Dman in the same mold who could learn from big Mike all while hurting a division rival.

Not saying it will happen but it would be a double edge sword for the Habs

Edited May 6, 2009 by Habitforming

[alexstream]

Sounds good in theory, but all it takes is one loud, obnoxious GM with a crap load of cap space on a mission (enter Burke) and then your price has risen dramatically.

The reason I chose Burke is not only because he has the space, but he also has a young Dman in the same mold who could learn from big Mike all while hurting a division rival.

Not saying it will happen but it would be a double edge sword for the Habs

IF Torawnta can get rid of their 20M in 3 dmen, then they could be dangerous... otherwise, 25M for 4 Dmen is just too stupid...

spontaneous combustion happens for less than that.

[Habsfan]

Sounds good in theory, but all it takes is one loud, obnoxious GM with a crap load of cap space on a mission (enter Burke) and then your price has risen dramatically.

The reason I chose Burke is not only because he has the space, but he also has a young Dman in the same mold who could learn from big Mike all while hurting a division rival.

Agreed, that's exactly what I was thinking and it's what scares me the most.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Habsfan

[Habitforming]

IF Torawnta can get rid of their 20M in 3 dmen, then they could be dangerous... otherwise, 25M for 4 Dmen is just too stupid...

spontaneous combustion happens for less than that.

So it would be different for them?

All it would be is the same money before moving McCabe

[BTH]

Sounds good in theory, but all it takes is one loud, obnoxious GM with a crap load of cap space on a mission (enter Burke) and then your price has risen dramatically.

The reason I chose Burke is not only because he has the space, but he also has a young Dman in the same mold who could learn from big Mike all while hurting a division rival.

Not saying it will happen but it would be a double edge sword for the Habs

Right. All it takes is one GM to think otherwise and he'll ruin it for us. I have very little hope that Komisarek will be back.