nihilz Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Bergevin & Murray have a nice history of facilitating trades together. I hope Fowler is next on that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 As for "just play him on the left side" thats proven to give a player about a 5-10% drop in defensive effectiveness (playing on the wrong side) I agree totally that Shattenkirk doesn't make sense for the Habs to make a move for him. But to say just cause somebody crunched the numbers that result in a 5-10% less effectiveness on the off wing, doesn't mean that would apply to Shattenkirk. The average drop might be in that range but there are also anomalies that make up that percentage and he could be better or worse than that percentage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I agree totally that Shattenkirk doesn't make sense for the Habs to make a move for him. But to say just cause somebody crunched the numbers that result in a 5-10% less effectiveness on the off wing, doesn't mean that would apply to Shattenkirk. The average drop might be in that range but there are also anomalies that make up that percentage and he could be better or worse than that percentage. Do you want to give up significant assets for what "could be" an anomaly and he could be fine. Considering Shattenkirk has never played on his off side, not in the NHL, not in the AHL, not in Juniors, do you want to take that chance? I don't Sure if St. Louis is giving him to us at a bargain, and we are re-signing him at a bargain, great. But do you want to pay full value to get a guy you will be playing on his off side, and has no experience doing so... and there is a lot to suggest that this will likely mean he performs at less than 100% effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illWill Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Do you want to give up significant assets for what "could be" an anomaly and he could be fine. Considering Shattenkirk has never played on his off side, not in the NHL, not in the AHL, not in Juniors, do you want to take that chance? I don't Sure if St. Louis is giving him to us at a bargain, and we are re-signing him at a bargain, great. But do you want to pay full value to get a guy you will be playing on his off side, and has no experience doing so... and there is a lot to suggest that this will likely mean he performs at less than 100% effectiveness. No I don't think it's reasonable to give up significant assets to acquire a guy just to put him or anyone else uncomfortably on their off wing. My point was countering your blanket statement about defensemen being statistically worse on the off wing. Assuming that's a true fact, it still means that some defensemen perform equally or better on their off wing. But yes I agree that it's likely a recipe for disaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 No I don't think it's reasonable to give up significant assets to acquire a guy just to put him or anyone else uncomfortably on their off wing. My point was countering your blanket statement about defensemen being statistically worse on the off wing. Assuming that's a true fact, it still means that some defensemen perform equally or better on their off wing. But yes I agree that it's likely a recipe for disaster Sure.... its an average.... but it is true, most defencemen are worse on their off-wing. Also righties going to LD are even worse than leftied going to RD, because there are so many more left hand shots than right hand shots, its more likely that a LD has had to do it in the past (in juniors, in AHL, in NHL) because you can often end up on a team with 4 LD and 2 RD. But righties rarely change sides, so in general the Right D moving to LD average is even worse than that overall average I gave. But sure, some guys might be freaks and able to do it. One guy who can't is on the Habs roster, Jeff Petry is significantly worse when playing LD, so I don't think he's moving sides to make room for Shattenkirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Sure.... its an average.... but it is true, most defencemen are worse on their off-wing. Also righties going to LD are even worse than leftied going to RD, because there are so many more left hand shots than right hand shots, its more likely that a LD has had to do it in the past (in juniors, in AHL, in NHL) because you can often end up on a team with 4 LD and 2 RD. But righties rarely change sides, so in general the Right D moving to LD average is even worse than that overall average I gave. But sure, some guys might be freaks and able to do it. One guy who can't is on the Habs roster, Jeff Petry is significantly worse when playing LD, so I don't think he's moving sides to make room for Shattenkirk. How bout wingers on their off-side? Are their stats for that, or are RH centremen more productive than LH ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Sorry, I know you weren't asking me and this isn't exactly what you were asking, but It's different for D-men. Try keeping a puck in when it's wrapped around the boards on your off side, then make a pass or take a shot. It's pretty hard Or skating backwards. It messes with your crossovers and lining guys up. Wings are a little easier to transition to, besides breaking out of your zone and looking over your shoulder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Sorry, I know you weren't asking me and this isn't exactly what you were asking, but It's different for D-men. Try keeping a puck in when it's wrapped around the boards on your off side, then make a pass or take a shot. It's pretty hard Or skating backwards. It messes with your crossovers and lining guys up. Wings are a little easier to transition to, besides breaking out of your zone and looking over your shoulder Yup, a few things. When a defenceman retrieves the puck in the corner, and is playing on his off side, he has his back to the play. Also if he is under pressure and wants to ring it around the boards, he is either doing it on his backhand to get it up and out of the zone the short way, or has to go the long way behind his own net, on the forehand. Further when he is defending a player on the cycle... on his proper side, (with one hand on the stick as most guys defend) his stick is cutting off the passing lane to the slot and front of the net. On his off side, the stick is cutting off the passing lane to behind the net. There are a lot of good reasons why defending is harder on your off side, and if you have little experience on how to compensate, its easy to see why the results are worse. As for wingers, its not near as pronounced. It can have an effect though as again the breakout is harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 It would idiocy to trade for a defenceman with the intention of playing permanently him on his wrong side, unless the guy has a history of successfully doing that. And then there's the fact that The Shat is a year away from being a UFA. Bergevin may be an idiot, but even he's probably not THAT dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The trade isn't happening and we're not getting Shattenkirk but he doesn't have to play his off side if we did acquire him. What's wrong with Beaulieu-Weber Markov-Shattenkirk Emelin-Petry Barberio-Pateryn Puck distributer on each pairing along with a physical presence. It doesn't work just because Petry is our long lost 3rd defenseman? When one gets injured it would be nice to have the depth. Again, it's not going to happen but it could work if it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Petry is a lot better than a third-pairing defenceman. But more to the point, this configuration is completely imbalanced - three studs on RD, plus a still-developing kid, a declining old man, and semi-pilon Emelin at LD - *and* Pateryn is wasted, What really needs to happen on the blueline is the trading away of Emelin to allow the cheaper Pateryn to take over his role as bottom-pairing physical D-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Sure, on paper he is 3rd pairing but why couldn't he see some PP time and still have the same amount of minutes as a second pairing guy? I agree the left side looks weak in comparison but those are the same three left D we are using anyway and I think it gives us more options. If we had Shattenkirk, Beaulieu doesn't HAVE to be top pairing at all times even though I expect him to do fine. Pateryn is solid but he's of a similar mould to Weber in terms of physical presence. He'll rub you off into the corner with nice body positioning but he won't hammer a player who has their head down as often as Emelin. I agree, that Emelin's contract is the main problem though. Oh well, I didn't bring up the move and I don't believe it will happen. I do believe if it did, Shattenkirk would be playing as a RD though and we have to keep in mind something (possibly a dman) would be going back in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Re: Emelin, I like him and think that he actually earns his salary in the handful of Big Games the team plays every year; like Subban, he's a big game player. But it's a fundamental reality of a cap system that you HAVE to replace overpaid vets with cheap young players. Emelin should be gone before the season starts IMHO, replaced by Pateryn. If Pateryn isn't quite the face-planting hitter than Emelin is, well, there has to be SOME reason for Weber being on the damned team; let the combination of his physicality and Pateryn's combine to surpass anything Emelin brought. That said, this is what should happen. With Dumb and Dumber in charge, who knows? Maybe Weber-Markov will be our top pairing, and Petry or Beaulieu will be traded away for Luca Sbisa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The trade isn't happening and we're not getting Shattenkirk but he doesn't have to play his off side if we did acquire him. What's wrong with Beaulieu-Weber Markov-Shattenkirk Emelin-Petry Barberio-Pateryn Puck distributer on each pairing along with a physical presence. It doesn't work just because Petry is our long lost 3rd defenseman? When one gets injured it would be nice to have the depth. Again, it's not going to happen but it could work if it did. A third pair that costs $9.85 million (and no other pairing is cheap). Welcome to cap hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 If Emelin made like 2.5, I'd feel alot better. It's tough to swallow basically 4 mill on the bottom pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx..CK..xXx Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Re: Emelin, I like him and think that he actually earns his salary in the handful of Big Games the team plays every year; like Subban, he's a big game player. But it's a fundamental reality of a cap system that you HAVE to replace overpaid vets with cheap young players. Emelin should be gone before the season starts IMHO, replaced by Pateryn. If Pateryn isn't quite the face-planting hitter than Emelin is, well, there has to be SOME reason for Weber being on the damned team; let the combination of his physicality and Pateryn's combine to surpass anything Emelin brought. That said, this is what should happen. With Dumb and Dumber in charge, who knows? Maybe Weber-Markov will be our top pairing, and Petry or Beaulieu will be traded away for Luca Sbisa. I like Emelin more than your average person, always have. You make a good point that the combination of Pateryn and Weber could counterbalance the physicality we might lose if Emelin were sent packing. Pateryn on his own doesn't do it for me but now that we have Weber as well I think for the first time (in my mind because others have wanted it for awhile now) Emelin has become somewhat expendable. What I like about Pateryn is that on the offensive side of things he actually shoots the puck. Both him and Barberio have to be some of the better depth D of any team in the league. On the other hand, there's a part of me that has a tough time seeing a team with both Barberio and Pateryn in the top 6 as being a legitimate contender. They were both quite good last season but they've both slotted in as #7s in the recent past. Hopefully no one goes down to injury. Good point about the cap hit Commandant. I have to say, Beaulieu must be a relatively cheap top 2 or 4 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I like Emelin more than your average person, always have. You make a good point that the combination of Pateryn and Weber could counterbalance the physicality we might lose if Emelin were sent packing. Pateryn on his own doesn't do it for me but now that we have Weber as well I think for the first time (in my mind because others have wanted it for awhile now) Emelin has become somewhat expendable. What I like about Pateryn is that on the offensive side of things he actually shoots the puck. Both him and Barberio have to be some of the better depth D of any team in the league. On the other hand, there's a part of me that has a tough time seeing a team with both Barberio and Pateryn in the top 6 as being a legitimate contender. They were both quite good last season but they've both slotted in as #7s in the recent past. Hopefully no one goes down to injury. Good point about the cap hit Commandant. I have to say, Beaulieu must be a relatively cheap top 2 or 4 though. He has a big shot and Pateryn also willing to drop the gloves, so between he, Beaulieu, Weber and Emelin the group isn't as soft as it has been recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I like Emelin more than your average person, always have. You make a good point that the combination of Pateryn and Weber could counterbalance the physicality we might lose if Emelin were sent packing. Pateryn on his own doesn't do it for me but now that we have Weber as well I think for the first time (in my mind because others have wanted it for awhile now) Emelin has become somewhat expendable. What I like about Pateryn is that on the offensive side of things he actually shoots the puck. Both him and Barberio have to be some of the better depth D of any team in the league. On the other hand, there's a part of me that has a tough time seeing a team with both Barberio and Pateryn in the top 6 as being a legitimate contender. They were both quite good last season but they've both slotted in as #7s in the recent past. Hopefully no one goes down to injury. Good point about the cap hit Commandant. I have to say, Beaulieu must be a relatively cheap top 2 or 4 though. He's relatively cheap... but lets look at it overall Beaulieu 1 million Weber 7.86 million Markov 5.75 million Petry 5.5 million Emelin 4.1 million Shattenkirk 4.25 million Thats 28.5 million on your top 6 D. If thats not the most expensive D in the entire NHL I'd be shocked.... add in a depth D man and you are over 29 million there. Add in the goalies and you've spent 38 million on 9 players. That leaves 35 million on 14 forwards. Not exactly ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 He's relatively cheap... but lets look at it overall Beaulieu 1 million Weber 7.86 million Markov 5.75 million Petry 5.5 million Emelin 4.1 million Shattenkirk 4.25 million Thats 28.5 million on your top 6 D. If thats not the most expensive D in the entire NHL I'd be shocked.... add in a depth D man and you are over 29 million there. Add in the goalies and you've spent 38 million on 9 players. That leaves 35 million on 14 forwards. Not exactly ideal. not to mention Shattenkirk will command a raise the following season as well as a big one for beaulieu the next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 not to mention Shattenkirk will command a raise the following season as well as a big one for beaulieu the next I didnt mention that because this is markovs last season and his 5.75 will make way for Shattenkirks raise. In two years, Emelins 4.1 will make way for Beaulieus raise. So the cap situation of this defence would, theoretically normalize. (Sergachev would take at least one of those spots on cheaper money). But that does not change the fact that it would still be very RHD heavy and LHD weak. I just don't see Shattenkirk making sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I didnt mention that because this is markovs last season and his 5.75 will make way for Shattenkirks raise. In two years, Emelins 4.1 will make way for Beaulieus raise. So the cap situation of this defence would, theoretically normalize. (Sergachev would take at least one of those spots on cheaper money). But that does not change the fact that it would still be very RHD heavy and LHD weak. I just don't see Shattenkirk making sense. Ideally a trade involving Shattenkirk would be best with Petry going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihilz Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 What's wrong with Beaulieu-Weber Markov-Shattenkirk Emelin-Petry Barberio-Pateryn Beaulieu Weber Markov Shattenkirk Barberio Pateryn But who has more trade value Emelin or Markov? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Ideally a trade involving Shattenkirk would be best with Petry going. Lateral move IMO.... I don't see the point. I think a LHD is our best bet. But now may not even be the time to make a move... considering the expansion draft. Adding a D now would mean Beaulieu would be lost to Vegas, meaning we'd have the same problem next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IN THE HEARTS OF MEN Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I didnt mention that because this is markovs last season and his 5.75 will make way for Shattenkirks raise. In two years, Emelins 4.1 will make way for Beaulieus raise. So the cap situation of this defence would, theoretically normalize. (Sergachev would take at least one of those spots on cheaper money). But that does not change the fact that it would still be very RHD heavy and LHD weak. I just don't see Shattenkirk making sense. I don't think it makes sense either. Don't be suprised to see Markov resign again though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 I don't think it makes sense either. Don't be suprised to see Markov resign again though Sure, but I think he'd have to take less money.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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