hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Would the Joe Thornton trade have worked???? The Lindros trade??? The Jagr for Anson Carter???? Heatley for a washed up Cheecho??? The Gretzky trade??? The Kovolev for Bulaj trade??? The Roy trade??? I could go on and on and on..... Could someone please check in that offer even works in NHL 12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 The point is that any other 28 teams would come up with a better offer than what you proposed for Malkin. And Rivet for Gorges and in the end Max Pac IS highway robbery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Could someone please check in that offer even works in NHL 12? For what it's worth, NHL12 wouldn't accept Kaberle for Spaceman. They wouldn't even take Spacek & a 1st for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 The Rivet deal at the time was seen as a great move to pick up a #1 pick and defensive depth. It has TURNED OUT to be highway robbery, but at the time wasn't seen as highway robbery, since the going rate for a dman that was considered a top 4 was and still is usually a #1 or a #2 pick. The fact that Gorges who was the throw in and that the habs actually did a good job of selecting MacPac makes the deal highway robbery. At the time, it was simply a good move. I'm just sorry the habs also didn't move Souray as well. This is not like when SJ got Thornton or Heatley, when immidately after the trade, you said, the Sharks just raped the bruins or Sens. Or the more painful one, when I heard about what we got for Roy, was not Sakic or Forsburg, but a bunch of 3rd line crap and Thibault, the first thing that came to my mind was you have to be fxckin kidding me and the second was wishing Tremblay, Houle and Corey a speedy and painful death!! So while the deal has turned out out to be highway robbery - particularly how good of a player Gorges and Maxpac truned out to be and since Rivet wasn't able to help the sharks in the playoffs, at the time, it was seen as a good move for Montreal. But hardley highway robbery. Hell even Brian Burke who was the GM of the Ducks at the time had said that he wished he had known that Rivet was available. The point is that any other 28 teams would come up with a better offer than what you proposed for Malkin. And Rivet for Gorges and in the end Max Pac IS highway robbery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Hey, I've been proposing trading a pacakge that included Cammy and weber to the Pens since last year when the Pens were trying to find a winger for Crosby. As far as how deal like this can go down - do you not remember the return the Bruins got for Joe Thornton??? Or the return the sens got for Heatley???? Or what Mad mike gave up for Yashin??? Or the biggest deal of all time - the Gretzky trade (which admitadly included a ton of cash), or the highway robbery Quebec pulled in dumping Lindros (which also included cash). Great other GMs have made mistakes. Why do you think Shero is dumb enough to make a mistake and take your offer? It doesn't make any sense to say... hey some GMs got ripped off before, so why can't we rip off the Penguins today? In today's NHL, there is even more of a chance that due to cap constraints, you to pick up the best player for lessor players.In Cammy the the Pens could get a trigger man with finsih for Crosby that has a successful playoff resume, In Weber/Campoli, they get reasonable defensive depth and I still think Weber has a huge upside to be a #4 Dman. He is only 22 or 23 and at what 26, 27, Streit didnt loook much better then Weber on defense. Moen replaces some of the grit they lost in Talbot and gives them more depth in the playoffs - he is also a cup winner. The point is that both Stall and Malkin are going to be UFA's and I can't see the Pens being able keep them both. Cammy should be able score 40-50 goals playing with Crosby and for an offensive minded coach and would be nearly $3M cheaper then Malkin. And again, before the league got re-aligned why would they trade one of the best players in the world to another team in their conference. It still doesn't make sense. Would the Joe Thornton trade have worked???? The Lindros trade??? The Jagr for Anson Carter???? Heatley for a washed up Cheecho??? The Gretzky trade??? The Kovolev for Bulaj trade??? The Roy trade??? I could go on and on and on..... Heatley was traded for Milan Michalek, the guy who was leading the league in goals until he got concussed earlier this week. Plus a draft pick. Cheechoo was nothing more than a throw in to make the salary cap situation work. On top of that, Lindros, Jagr, Heatley, Roy, all demanded to be traded, forcing their GM into a significant position of weakness. And as you said, Gretzky was never anything more than an Owner whose other businesses were driving him bankrupt so he made a desperate move that was bad for his hockey team in order to get 15 million in cash. Heck Sather didn't even have any input into the deal, it was all Pocklington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Great other GMs have made mistakes. Why do you think Shero is dumb enough to make a mistake and take your offer? It doesn't make any sense to say... hey some GMs got ripped off before, so why can't we rip off the Penguins today? And again, before the league got re-aligned why would they trade one of the best players in the world to another team in their conference. It still doesn't make sense. Heatley was traded for Milan Michalek, the guy who was leading the league in goals until he got concussed earlier this week. Plus a draft pick. Cheechoo was nothing more than a throw in to make the salary cap situation work. On top of that, Lindros, Jagr, Heatley, Roy, all demanded to be traded, forcing their GM into a significant position of weakness. And as you said, Gretzky was never anything more than an Owner whose other businesses were driving him bankrupt so he made a desperate move that was bad for his hockey team in order to get 15 million in cash. Heck Sather didn't even have any input into the deal, it was all Pocklington. YOu mean like how SJ and Minny would never have made TWO TRADES in a week last summer, despite being in the same conference. Or how Lindros was traded in the same conference, or how Selanne was traded by Winnepeg to a team in the same conference, or how the Rangers traded Gomez to a team in their conference, or how montreal and Tampa had a deal, despite being in the same conference????? Again, i could go on and on and on.... As far as the Heatley trade, Michalek and Cheecho were both part of the trade, and Cheecho was the lousy contract for the Sens to pick up in that deal. Michaek FINALLY put up decent numbers - prior to this year, he has put up 17, 26, 24.23, 22, 18 goals. A steady decline until this year, so I don't think his production to date would have been sustained over the whole year. Just because a player demands a deal, doesn't mean the team has to get raped - in the Lindros deal, the NOrds/Avs easily won that deal. As far as Roy's demand, he did backtrack after his outburst at the bench, but the unholy trinity of Tremblay/HOule/Corey were unforgiving. So you don't think that Shero wouldn't have tempted by Subban, Cammy, Weber, Moen and picks for Malkin last year??? particularly considering how well Cammy had played against the pens last year and they were looking for a winger for Crosby?? You have to at least make the ATTEMPT, if you get shot down, fine, but if you don't even try to sign a true number one center (unless he is the great french hope and everyone's cousin Vinny), and continuosly to make sideways moves by chasing after 3rd/4th line centres like Halpern, Moore, Bonk and Niko, or overpriced under-performing bums like Gomez, you will never get the big centre this team has lacked for almost 20 years. Why is it that we always seemed to get raped on blockbuster deals like the Gomez, Roy, Leclair and Denis Savard trades???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 The 50 contract limit also needs to be considered. Most teams are within 2 of the limit, making multiplayer for one player deals even harder to materialize. Such a limit didn't exist back in the day of the Gretzky and Lindros moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 The 50 contract limit also needs to be considered. Most teams are within 2 of the limit, making multiplayer for one player deals even harder to materialize. Such a limit didn't exist back in the day of the Gretzky and Lindros moves. You can still get around that, by taking a contract or two back. Bottom line is that you have to target a guy and try. The habs have lacked a big center for 20 years now. They really need to go after that type of player. I know a lot of people have said that Subban, Price, MaxPac are the guys they would consider untouchable. While I agree and wouldn't want to give up either of these guys, I would be willing to add in either a MaxPac or Subban in a package for a guy like Malkin. However, I would not want to move them for a guy like Eric Stall. Let's face it, unless we are finishing in the bottom 3 to get a decent shot at a lottery pick, we are not going to ever be able to get a guy like that. WHile our scouting has gotten better, we also have not done well enough at the draft to pull the Datysuk or Zetterberg rabbits late in the draft AND then have the ABILITY to develop those players to dominate the way the Wings have. I like some of the pieces we have in the lineup right now - Subban, Price, MaxPac, Eller, Ak46, Emelin, Pleks, Cole and Gorges, as well as some of the young players in the minors like Leblanc and in juniors/college like Gallaher, Beaulieu, Bournival, Kristo and Pribyl (not as sold on Tinordi yet), but at the end of the day, we don't have a true dominating centre. I'd be willing to move a Cammy, Gionta and some prospects for a truly elite player who can be conisdered top 5 in the league. IMO, the Pens are the only team (prior to the Crosby injury), who MAY be willing to give up one of those guys - particularly last year, when Malkin had an "off year". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 I'd be willing to move a Cammy, Gionta and some prospects for a truly elite player who can be conisdered top 5 in the league. IMO, the Pens are the only team (prior to the Crosby injury), who MAY be willing to give up one of those guys. You might be, but some underachieving highly paid players (and prospects) shouldn't normally entice other GM's to do that deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 <br>You might be, but some underachieving highly paid players (and prospects) shouldn't normally entice other GM's to do that deal.<br> I think there are 29 GM's who would be lining up for Subban, i also think Cammy has higher value then we think. Also, let's face it the last two years, Malkin had injury problems and looked to be underachieving as well and really that is when you need to strike for a player like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 I think there are 29 GM's who would be lining up for Subban, i also think Cammy has higher value then we think. Also, let's face it the last two years, Malkin had injury problems and looked to be underachieving as well and really that is when you need to strike for a player like that. You didn't have Subban in that last quote, he changes things as I noted earlier. I was responding to the suggestion that a team would be willing to part with a superstar for Cammalleri, Gionta, and prospects, something I don't think would be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 We keep assuming that Gauthier hasn't tried.... why? How do you know he hasn't made a trade offer that Shero hasn't rejected? The whole discussion is built on a straw man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You didn't have Subban in that last quote, he changes things as I noted earlier. I was responding to the suggestion that a team would be willing to part with a superstar for Cammalleri, Gionta, and prospects, something I don't think would be the case. IMO, Subban is still a prospect. Yes he is playing 25 min as a 22-23 year old. But until he develops into the guy he has the potential to be, I'd be willing to move him for a guy like Malkin. Having said that, I think I would have started hating Bob Gainey with the same passion as I hate Tremblay, if he Subban was moved as part of a package for Lecavalier (as was reported) - and this is despite Gainey being one of my favorite players while I was growing up. Last year, I had suggested a move here for Subban, Weber and Cammy, despite how much I love Subban. To me, unless you are getting a true top 3, top 5 player in the league, you don't even consider moving Subban, but I'd put Malkin right up there with Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Oveckin. We keep assuming that Gauthier hasn't tried.... why? How do you know he hasn't made a trade offer that Shero hasn't rejected? The whole discussion is built on a straw man. If he had tried, you would have heard about it. Just like we heard for a year of Gainey chasing Vinny, well in advance of the deal at the draft that was shut down, because of the conflict within the lightening ownership. I really don't get your blind support for JM and PG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 If he had tried, you would have heard about it. Just like we heard for a year of Gainey chasing Vinny, well in advance of the deal at the draft that was shut down, because of the conflict within the lightening ownership. I really don't get your blind support for JM and PG. How many failed trade attempts have we heard about while Gauthier was in charge? Not from random Twitter sources either, legitimate ones. I think we've heard about as many as failed attempts I've made as GM of the Habs...0. The organization keeps things close to the vest, so I don't think it's unfair to assume that if such an attempt was made, that we wouldn't have heard about it. Heck, we barely hear anything when something does happen... I'll flip the other part of the question around - why are you so critical of Gauthier for something you're presupposing as a hypothetical? It'd be one thing if he came out and said we could've got Malkin but chose not to, but to jump on him because you don't think he made an offer seems unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 How many failed trade attempts have we heard about while Gauthier was in charge? Not from random Twitter sources either, legitimate ones. I think we've heard about as many as failed attempts I've made as GM of the Habs...0. The organization keeps things close to the vest, so I don't think it's unfair to assume that if such an attempt was made, that we wouldn't have heard about it. Heck, we barely hear anything when something does happen... The organization may keep things close to the vest, but most other teams don't. Gainey wasn't the one who leaked the Vinny attempts - the Lightening did. Gainey only mentioned it aftewards, when he keep out ripping Lawton, after the deal was already leaked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 IMO, Subban is still a prospect. Yes he is playing 25 min as a 22-23 year old. But until he develops into the guy he has the potential to be, I'd be willing to move him for a guy like Malkin. Having said that, I think I would have started hating Bob Gainey with the same passion as I hate Tremblay, if he Subban was moved as part of a package for Lecavalier (as was reported) - and this is despite Gainey being one of my favorite players while I was growing up. Last year, I had suggested a move here for Subban, Weber and Cammy, despite how much I love Subban. To me, unless you are getting a true top 3, top 5 player in the league, you don't even consider moving Subban, but I'd put Malkin right up there with Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Oveckin. If he had tried, you would have heard about it. Just like we heard for a year of Gainey chasing Vinny, well in advance of the deal at the draft that was shut down, because of the conflict within the lightening ownership. I really don't get your blind support for JM and PG. Just like we heard about the Kaberle trade in advance Just like we heard about Erik Cole Just like we heard about Scott Gomez in advance Just like we heard which team was after Halak. The Habs under Gainey first and now Gauthier are like fort knox... shit doesn't leak from them. The only reason the Vinny trade leaked was because the lightning had 2 owners who were fighting over whether or not to trade him... one of them wanted him traded, the other wanted to build around him. The guy who wanted to build around him, leaked the proposed deal to try and get the Tampa fans to go crazy and kill the deal. The rest of our trades.... we hear nothing in advance. For all the rumors in this thread... find me the Kaberle rumor before it happened??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Just like we heard about the Kaberle trade in advance Just like we heard about Erik Cole Just like we heard about Scott Gomez in advance Just like we heard which team was after Halak. The Habs under Gainey first and now Gauthier are like fort knox... shit doesn't leak from them. The only reason the Vinny trade leaked was because the lightning had 2 owners who were fighting over whether or not to trade him... one of them wanted him traded, the other wanted to build around him. The guy who wanted to build around him, leaked the proposed deal to try and get the Tampa fans to go crazy and kill the deal. The rest of our trades.... we hear nothing in advance. For all the rumors in this thread... find me the Kaberle rumor before it happened??? Actually, even Peckland had listed the habs in the Kaberle rumours at least a month before the deal happened, which i immidately dismissed as inconcievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaboom Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Look at me in the eyes and tell me without laughing that you would trade Evgeni Freakin' Malkin for An aging slightly overpaid Cammy A 6th-7th dman than can't crack MTL's roster (Weber) A 5th-6th dman with more offense than defense in him (Campoli) An aging 4th liner (Moen) A prospect that will most likely play on their 3rd line fo' life (Bournival or Leblanc) and a swap of 1st when Malkin will probably help the Habs to improve their ranking so aging is 29 and 30 for a hockey player? cam and moen are that age. camp is a 4th d on most teams at worst name 10 that he wouldn't be? yes weber is a bottom pairing but can be a pp gut like M.B was here he is the same guy. LL really a 3rd line guy for life? to early to tell but the kid shows some hands and is good with the puck. i never said for this trade to happen but u so under valued our players. cammy has and can be an 80 pt guy moen is a very good 3rd line guy on a cup team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 If Campoli is a top 4 defencemen on most teams in the league... why was he available in September? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Rumour: Plex and Cammi were singled out during the team meeting yesterday. Rest of team not particularly happy with them. Gorges in particular had it out with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Rumour: Plex and Cammi were singled out during the team meeting yesterday. Rest of team not particularly happy with them. Gorges in particular had it out with them. I hope this is true. If I'm Gorges my message is: OK, you got the coach fired. NOW YOU'D BETTER $%$%^#$%^ STEP UP AND DELIVER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davehab Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I hope this is true. If I'm Gorges my message is: OK, you got the coach fired. NOW YOU'D BETTER $%$%^#$%^ STEP UP AND DELIVER. didnt they both have kids this year? Could be why they both look tired out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Newest rumour du jour (take it for what it's worth): Habs still looking into LA. Cammi + for Stoll and Penner. Oy vey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 That would be a horrible horrible trade. As for the Cammy stuff, we keep hearing the complaints... but the guy has quietly put up 6 pts in his last 7 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Agree hat would be a horrible trade. The only reason to potentially make a dumbass move like that would be get out of the longer term Financial commitment to Cammy- but we aren't talking about Gomez type performance hear (that is without knowing what the commitment to Stoll is- I know penner is up this year, but have idea about Stoll's contract). That being said, I really don't care of the points (mainly assists, where he didnt do much) he has put up, because he has played like crap. I really don't care about the 2nd PP assist he gets credited for, just because he happened to touch the puck at some point. That would be a horrible horrible trade. As for the Cammy stuff, we keep hearing the complaints... but the guy has quietly put up 6 pts in his last 7 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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