The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 On Moen, well, he spent one season trying to avoid fights, probably because he recognized that he was declining; then had that sit-down with Bergevin, re-committed to his role, and end up getting humiliatingly concussed. The overall picture is of a guy who is vulnerable and knows it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 On Moen, well, he spent one season trying to avoid fights, probably because he recognized that he was declining; then had that sit-down with Bergevin, re-committed to his role, and end up getting humiliatingly concussed. The overall picture is of a guy who is vulnerable and knows it. Well then it is time to hang em up cause if you fight not to lose you generally get hurt real bad. Moen is a good soldier, I would not want to see him get hurt when he can't do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I disagree, every goon has been dropped and concussed, fact of life for them which loser of a fight hasn't been embarrassed? unless you are Lucic and pick your spots and wilt when challenged by any guy who can chuck em well. Unlike a Neil who actually dropped Chara last year and has a big set of balls (which Lucic likely drools over, with his testicular fetish and all) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I disagree, every goon has been dropped and concussed, fact of life for them which loser of a fight hasn't been embarrassed? unless you are Lucic and pick your spots and wilt when challenged by any guy who can chuck em well. Unlike a Neil who actually dropped Chara last year and has a big set of balls (which Lucic likely drools over, with his testicular fetish and all) Hahaha.I remember all of those "Lucic Fight Club" t-shirt when he first came into the league. He looked pretty badass fighting Komisarek, Jaarko Ruuttu and the rest of the middle weights. Then he got rocked by John Erskine and Colton Orr, and spent an entire season ducking Laraque. I was watching some old Can Neely fights on YouTube, the announcers were talking about "the coach not wanting Neely to fight enforcers." This was the 80's! Wendell Clark never ducked anyone, and the same BS carries over to today. Institutional bullying. I mean c'mon? Are these people for real? http://www.sullysbrand.com/item/697/marchand-destroy-everything-t-shirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 clark vs mcsorley might've been the best fight ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 disagree, every goon has been dropped and concussed, fact of life for them which loser of a fight hasn't been embarrassed? unless you are Lucic and pick your spots and wilt when challenged by any guy who can chuck em well. Unlike a Neil who actually dropped Chara last year and has a big set of balls (which Lucic likely drools over, with his testicular fetish and all) really Don? you have someone killed on the ice cause we need this? I am 60 years old I played with virtually no equipment, I have a lot of aches and pains that I don't need but I loved the game and the fact that my hands don't work right and my knees elbows and most joints are shot. That's ok cause I will continue on with I got left, but these guys face death. We need to deal with that. Something screwed up in the qoute but you get the idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Hahaha. I remember all of those "Lucic Fight Club" t-shirt when he first came into the league. He looked pretty badass fighting Komisarek, Jaarko Ruuttu and the rest of the middle weights. Then he got rocked by John Erskine and Colton Orr, and spent an entire season ducking Laraque. I was watching some old Can Neely fights on YouTube, the announcers were talking about "the coach not wanting Neely to fight enforcers." This was the 80's! Wendell Clark never ducked anyone, and the same BS carries over to today. Institutional bullying. I mean c'mon? Are these people for real? http://www.sullysbrand.com/item/697/marchand-destroy-everything-t-shirt To be fair, Komisarek was not a middleweight. He was a heavyweight in every sense of the word that couldn't fight. But that's why Lucic went for him. He knew he couldn't throw a punch well. Komisarek went to Toronto, got in a fight in one of his first games and just... shook the guy hard. Because he still couldn't punch. Honestly nobody should fight in the NHL. Expecting people to fight is like expecting people to slash. You're asking them to delay the game with something illegal. That said, there's something odd about a guy who plays the role of bully but then ducks when meeting an equal match that just feels wrong morally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 If you look at society as a whole, where everything is going a la PC, and there's a committee or group against everything in human nature, fighting is on it's way out of the NHL, and the first step will be "no home" for a prototypical goon, who can't even keep up with the game 3 shifts per night. It may be a long ways off, it may not be so far off, but it's coming to the age where fighting is not acceptable, and penalties are getting very serious over a scuffle. The AHL is adopting a trial run for new policy this coming season, where if you get into 2 fights in a single game, you are issued a game misconduct and tossed.... I'd personally hate to see that spur of the moment scrap, between two adrenalized hockey players fighting for ice, be gone from hockey, but I fear it's inevitable. The only thing holding it in is the mentality of going for the super hit, trying to take a guys head off, and being held accountable by the tough guy on the other team, it's hard to stop it from happening.... I don't think a scrap is nearly as dangerous as a typical Scott Stevens type hit, and I don't think the players do either, those hits end careers of players who would probably play a career without the need to fight, and that's what sucks about taking fighting out as far as I'm concerned. Nutshell, there are far more dangerous things in hockey than a fight.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 there will always be room for tough guy in the nhl..however, these guy will also have to effectively play 3rd or 4th line minutes..i think the one-dimensional "goon" position will eventually become obsolete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 there will always be room for tough guy in the nhl..however, these guy will also have to effectively play 3rd or 4th line minutes..i think the one-dimensional "goon" position will eventually become obsolete Well, let's hope so. There was no such thing as a pure "goon" until expansion dramatically watered-down the product, presumably because teams could not afford to carry guys who sucked in the hyper-competitive Original Six environment. I have no problem with getting rid of fighting, especially with what we now know about concussions and blows to the head, but there is a legitimate "player safety" question here that to my knowledge hardly ever receives serious empirical investigation. One of the reasons why fighting evolved in hockey was to deter and punish unacceptable behaviours, i.e., cheap shots, dangerous plays, attacks on star players, etc., that officials often missed given the speed of the game and their own enduring incompetence. IMHO fighting has not very effectively fulfilled this protective role over the past couple of decades - partly because of that idiotic instigator rule, and maybe partly because of the hyper-specialization of the goon's role, such that goons only fight each other in sideshows, rather than being like John Ferguson and genuinely policing the whole ice. But the point is that if fighting does go the way of the dodo, it might be extremely important that the NHL become MUCH more aggressive in meting out suspensions for dangerous play, lest even worse carnage ensue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Well, let's hope so. There was no such thing as a pure "goon" until expansion dramatically watered-down the product, presumably because teams could not afford to carry guys who sucked in the hyper-competitive Original Six environment. I have no problem with getting rid of fighting, especially with what we now know about concussions and blows to the head, but there is a legitimate "player safety" question here that to my knowledge hardly ever receives serious empirical investigation. One of the reasons why fighting evolved in hockey was to deter and punish unacceptable behaviours, i.e., cheap shots, dangerous plays, attacks on star players, etc., that officials often missed given the speed of the game and their own enduring incompetence. IMHO fighting has not very effectively fulfilled this protective role over the past couple of decades - partly because of that idiotic instigator rule, and maybe partly because of the hyper-specialization of the goon's role, such that goons only fight each other in sideshows, rather than being like John Ferguson and genuinely policing the whole ice. But the point is that if fighting does go the way of the dodo, it might be extremely important that the NHL become MUCH more aggressive in meting out suspensions for dangerous play, lest even worse carnage ensue. Yeah I agree, there just aren't enough of the fergy's and proberts to go around. They played regular shifts and looked after their team mates. Today's tough guys cant play hockey. I still think a John Ferguson or Bob Probert et al can play on anybody's team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Yeah I agree, there just aren't enough of the fergy's and proberts to go around. They played regular shifts and looked after their team mates. Today's tough guys cant play hockey. I still think a John Ferguson or Bob Probert et al can play on anybody's yep, couple of bad dudes right there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I would hate to see fighting taken out of the game. First things first-it will never happen. The Player's Association will never sign off on a ban that fires 40-50 players. Fighting adds excitement to the games. Fighting is also awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 really Don? you have someone killed on the ice cause we need this? I am 60 years old I played with virtually no equipment, I have a lot of aches and pains that I don't need but I loved the game and the fact that my hands don't work right and my knees elbows and most joints are shot. That's ok cause I will continue on with I got left, but these guys face death. We need to deal with that. Something screwed up in the qoute but you get the idea Sorry dont understand what you mean? But, I am 100% against fighting and would love to see it penalized like every other sport in world does, instant ejection/suspensions/fines to player and team. But, all I am saying is that every goon gets rocked and concussed and Moan is no different. And him getting dropped once, dosent mean it is end of his career, it happens when you play with fire and try to play tough guy role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Sorry dont understand what you mean? But, I am 100% against fighting and would love to see it penalized like every other sport in world does, instant ejection/suspensions/fines to player and team. But, all I am saying is that every goon gets rocked and concussed and Moan is no different. And him getting dropped once, dosent mean it is end of his career, it happens when you play with fire and try to play tough guy role. he got dropped a lot more than once. He is getting to an age where the concussions don't go away. So my point and I think C/C's is that if he can't fight anymore and that is his role then retirement is the only option. The money just ain't worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 100% his choice. DO boxers/football players take a bit of brain trama? 100% of them do, but do they all retire and give up millions of dollars? Would you? It is a choice and if Moan wants to be a super PK guy, toss a few hits and be like Darche and choose not to fight, why cant he still be effective bottom six guy? If he wants to mix it up, who knows how close he is 'serious' or permanent damage, could be exact same as Prust, Konopka, Lucic at present, or he maybe close to a Probert/Kordic/Parros? Habs or Moans' doctor should be best judge of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 100% his choice. DO boxers/football players take a bit of brain trama? 100% of them do, but do they all retire and give up millions of dollars? Would you? It is a choice and if Moan wants to be a super PK guy, toss a few hits and be like Darche and choose not to fight, why cant he still be effective bottom six guy? If he wants to mix it up, who knows how close he is 'serious' or permanent damage, could be exact same as Prust, Konopka, Lucic at present, or he maybe close to a Probert/Kordic/Parros? Habs or Moans' doctor should be best judge of that? Moen is a grinder, if he's going to dish hits and play a rough game he's going to have to mix it up once and a while with his gloves off. That's just how it goes. The shittiest part is Moen is a decent bottom 6 guy, but his value is lower than ever right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Well likely wouldn't hurt to have him for depth; bit expensive but good on PK and he/Malhotra would be solid defensively. (but him sitting in playoffs when likely OK to play, seemed to be sign he would be going somewhere and I guess he may still might?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Well likely wouldn't hurt to have him for depth; bit expensive but good on PK and he/Malhotra would be solid defensively. (but him sitting in playoffs when likely OK to play, seemed to be sign he would be going somewhere and I guess he may still might?) He'll probably start the year in Montreal I would think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEWATER77 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 He'll probably start the year in Montreal I would think at the risk of losing yet more veteran presence, travis moen's roster spot may be better suited to a young up n comer..jmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Moen can contribute solidly even if he doesn't fight, but there's no question that his value diminishes without that part of his game. I understand why Zoot Suit signed him to that deal - he wanted to solidify the bottom-6 after Gauthier's annual folly of assembling it on the fly halfway through the season, and to lock up leadership and toughness. Trouble is, players who fight often seem to hit the downside early, and we locked up Moen just as his fighting skills began to wane. No question, in an ideal world he'd be gone and a young guy of comparable profile would take his slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Moen can contribute solidly even if he doesn't fight, but there's no question that his value diminishes without that part of his game. I understand why Zoot Suit signed him to that deal - he wanted to solidify the bottom-6 after Gauthier's annual folly of assembling it on the fly halfway through the season, and to lock up leadership and toughness. Trouble is, players who fight often seem to hit the downside early, and we locked up Moen just as his fighting skills began to wane. No question, in an ideal world he'd be gone and a young guy of comparable profile would take his slot. Moen's value is lower than ever, he might as well start the season in Montreal and at least get some playing time to possibly increase his value. I do agree though, his spot should be filled be younger grit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I've always liked Moen. For me, the reason he was left out in the playoffs was conditioning after his concussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGC21 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I like Moen and hope the Habs keep him for depth. And to be honest, we know Prust will get hurt and between him Moen - they make one full hockey player than can play 82 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I like Moen and hope the Habs keep him for depth. And to be honest, we know Prust will get hurt and between him Moen - they make one full hockey player than can play 82 games. I agree, plus with the veterans out the door, Moen is a leader type guy, and really, when healthy is the type of player the Habs need to help fill the void of Gionta defensively, he is very sound on that side of the game, physical and a really good PK player. I think he has more value to MTL than he does on the trade scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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