Markov Injury Re-Injury v2.01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

For a sheer, mercenary hockey standpoint, it really does raise serious questions about the future. First, he has to be classified as injury-prone at this point, so that affects your decision to invest in him or not. Second, I'm no doctor, but that's a LOT of repeated catastrophic damage to the knee of an aging hockey player. Even if he comes back after, say, a year's worth of re-habbing and re-conditioning, he may never be the same player - potentially due to either age or injury or a baleful combination of both. (Hell, one disastrous knee injury was enough to permanently compromise Koivu's entire career).

I can see the case for giving him a short-term deal, but if there are longer-term options available (e.g., Kaberle), we should probably go in that direction instead. How's the UFA market for defencemen shaping up?

And - again setting aside compassion for Markov and just taking a cold, Habs-eye view - thank GOD that PK Subban is emerging just as Markov is apparently evaporating. This is intensely frustrating inasmuch as if we had BOTH we could be Cup contenders. But at least his eventual replacement is in the wings.

:puke:

[Wamsley01]

For a sheer, mercenary hockey standpoint, it really does raise serious questions about the future. First, he has to be classified as injury-prone at this point, so that affects your decision to invest in him or not. Second, I'm no doctor, but that's a LOT of repeated catastrophic damage to the knee of an aging hockey player. Even if he comes back after, say, a year's worth of re-habbing and re-conditioning, he may never be the same player - potentially due to either age or injury or a baleful combination of both. (Hell, one disastrous knee injury was enough to permanently compromise Koivu's entire career).

I can see the case for giving him a short-term deal, but if there are longer-term options available (e.g., Kaberle), we should probably go in that direction instead. How's the UFA market for defencemen shaping up?

And - again setting aside compassion for Markov and just taking a cold, Habs-eye view - thank GOD that PK Subban is emerging just as Markov is apparently evaporating. This is intensely frustrating inasmuch as if we had BOTH we could be Cup contenders. But at least his eventual replacement is in the wings.

:puke:

Koivu relied on speed to create, of course a knee injury would be catastrophic to him.

There are plenty of immobile defensemen who can adjust their game as they age and still be effective.

Losing ones knees do not destroy your vision or your ability to make tape to tape passes. We are not talking

about a Subban/Chelios/Niedermayer type player who takes the puck and goes on end to end rushes.

Even when he loses a step he will still be able to thread the needle on the PP or sneak in backdoor.

His instincts, vision and intelligence will not be compromised.

He is not a physical defender or an over aggressive defender who relies on his skating ability to recover

from his mistakes. He is an intelligent player who relies on angles to stop the opposition.

This will probably end the Markov as we know him today, but does not mean he cannot be a valuable

top 3-4 for the next 5-6 years in a different type of role.

[JoeLassister]

He is not a physical defender or an over aggressive defender who relies on his skating ability to recover

from his mistakes. He is an intelligent player who relies on angles to stop the opposition.

This will probably end the Markov as we know him today, but does not mean he cannot be a valuable

top 3-4 for the next 5-6 years in a different type of role.

Exact.

Another question is : When do we sign him ? How long do we wait after July 1st ?? There is always a risk that a team would go "crazy" enough and shoot a 4,5M$ offer for several years à la Jeff Finger... Who knows ?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Koivu relied on speed to create, of course a knee injury would be catastrophic to him.

There are plenty of immobile defensemen who can adjust their game as they age and still be effective.

Losing ones knees do not destroy your vision or your ability to make tape to tape passes. We are not talking

about a Subban/Chelios/Niedermayer type player who takes the puck and goes on end to end rushes.

Even when he loses a step he will still be able to thread the needle on the PP or sneak in backdoor.

His instincts, vision and intelligence will not be compromised.

He is not a physical defender or an over aggressive defender who relies on his skating ability to recover

from his mistakes. He is an intelligent player who relies on angles to stop the opposition.

This will probably end the Markov as we know him today, but does not mean he cannot be a valuable

top 3-4 for the next 5-6 years in a different type of role.

Well, being incredibly strong on his skates is Markov's main strength apart from his vision, it seems to me; but yes, you're probably right. Maybe the most likely option is that Markov returns as Roman Hamrlik - wily all-around vet, but no longer the 'underrated superstar' of your avatar fame. :hlogo:

In fairness, I didn't mean to imply that he would turn into JJ Daigneault - just that we might have to temper our expectations (and salary commitments) in light of his being damaged goods; and that if some genuinely elite options on D are potentially available, preferably as UFAs, we might think in those terms instead. However, I don't believe any UFAs will likely be available.

One small thingL I find myself having increasing confidence in our management to make the right call. And that in itself is some consolation, at least.

[Wamsley01]

Well, being incredibly strong on his skates is Markov's main strength apart from his vision, it seems to me; but yes, you're probably right. Maybe the most likely option is that Markov returns as Roman Hamrlik - wily all-around vet, but no longer the 'underrated superstar' of your avatar fame. :hlogo:

In fairness, I didn't mean to imply that he would turn into JJ Daigneault - just that we might have to temper our expectations (and salary commitments) in light of his being damaged goods; and that if some genuinely elite options on D are potentially available, preferably as UFAs, we might think in those terms instead. However, I don't believe any UFAs will likely be available.

One small thingL I find myself having increasing confidence in our management to make the right call. And that in itself is some consolation, at least.

I would rather have Markov with a reconstructed knee than Kaberle fully healthy.

It is all about cost and Markov's expectation as far as I am concerned. He is important to the room, he is one of

the contributors to Price's maturity when he dressed him down last season.

The problem in Montreal for the last decade has been thrusting guys into roles that they are not suited for.

Guys like Zednik playing on the 1st line when they are 2nd line players at best. If you play Hamrlik 26 minutes a night

he breaks down, if you manage his minutes in the 2nd pairing and give him secondary power play minutes you get more.

I absolutely loathed the decision to bring Hal Gill here and Leaf fans laughed at me for the Habs signing him. Then I watched

him in limited minutes with a specific role and marveled at the positives he brought to the table. They far outweigh the major

gaffe he makes once every 5 games.

With Markov's battered knees, we are likely looking at a powerplay specialist and a 2nd pairing defenseman 2-3 years from now.

[brobin]

As long as he is paid for what he brings, it is not issue. The problem is if he wants to be paid for what he was...

In this case, the doctors and trainers might be the most critical guys in this decision. They better be very accurate late in the year in assessing just how well Markov will recover. If they are confident that he will be "good as new", then we can take the risk. If there is doubt, then we should either pay less, or at least look around the league to see where to spend the money.

Its always a gamble. Price could blow out his hips tomorrow, but would you sign Price long term if he just had hip replacement surgery and had trouble going down (see the Emery story).

This is why I hope Markov is willing to take a one year deal. Let's see how he is, then setup a long term deal based on that. It would be in his interests if he thinks he will recover as it gives him a year to prove it before taking a long term salary hit.

Frankly, he owes the team now just as much as they owe him. Hopefully they can work out something fair.

I would rather have Markov with a reconstructed knee than Kaberle fully healthy.

It is all about cost and Markov's expectation as far as I am concerned. He is important to the room, he is one of

the contributors to Price's maturity when he dressed him down last season.

The problem in Montreal for the last decade has been thrusting guys into roles that they are not suited for.

Guys like Zednik playing on the 1st line when they are 2nd line players at best. If you play Hamrlik 26 minutes a night

he breaks down, if you manage his minutes in the 2nd pairing and give him secondary power play minutes you get more.

I absolutely loathed the decision to bring Hal Gill here and Leaf fans laughed at me for the Habs signing him. Then I watched

him in limited minutes with a specific role and marveled at the positives he brought to the table. They far outweigh the major

gaffe he makes once every 5 games.

With Markov's battered knees, we are likely looking at a powerplay specialist and a 2nd pairing defenseman 2-3 years from now.

[Habsfan]

Like I said earlier, I think the Habs will offer Markov a one year deal next summer. Probably in the 5.5 to 6 million$ range. If everything goes well 1/2 way through the 2011-2012 season, then I'd offer him a 4 year deal. Once again in the 24 to 25 million$ range.

I think something like this could be worked out, cause unlike many players who have said they wanted to stay, Markov actually means it and he likes it here in Montreal. He proved that when he signed that 4 year 23 million$ deal. He could've gotten alot more elsewhere!

[Wamsley01]

As long as he is paid for what he brings, it is not issue. The problem is if he wants to be paid for what he was...

In this case, the doctors and trainers might be the most critical guys in this decision. They better be very accurate late in the year in assessing just how well Markov will recover. If they are confident that he will be "good as new", then we can take the risk. If there is doubt, then we should either pay less, or at least look around the league to see where to spend the money.

Its always a gamble. Price could blow out his hips tomorrow, but would you sign Price long term if he just had hip replacement surgery and had trouble going down (see the Emery story).

This is why I hope Markov is willing to take a one year deal. Let's see how he is, then setup a long term deal based on that. It would be in his interests if he thinks he will recover as it gives him a year to prove it before taking a long term salary hit.

Frankly, he owes the team now just as much as they owe him. Hopefully they can work out something fair.

A goalie who blows out his hips is done. A defenseman who suffers a knee injury can still contribute.

[JoeLassister]

Like I said earlier, I think the Habs will offer Markov a one year deal next summer. Probably in the 5.5 to 6 million$ range. If everything goes well 1/2 way through the 2011-2012 season, then I'd offer him a 4 year deal. Once again in the 24 to 25 million$ range.

I'll re-ask : How soon would you do that ? July 1st or when we have more infos about his recovery ?

[Seb]

I'll re-ask : How soon would you do that ? July 1st or when we have more infos about his recovery ?

They'd probably have to make a decision before July 1st, because we all know the nutjob GMs in this league will throw all sorts of money at him, even long term, just to make the signing. Especially if the salary cap increases by a couple million (like early whispers are suggesting; I forget where I read that, but if I see it again, I'll post a source.)

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

They'd probably have to make a decision before July 1st, because we all know the nutjob GMs in this league will throw all sorts of money at him, even long term, just to make the signing. Especially if the salary cap increases by a couple million (like early whispers are suggesting; I forget where I read that, but if I see it again, I'll post a source.)

I think enough teams will be both cap-pinched and leery of Markov's injury record that we will not face anything like the competition we would otherwise have faced for Markov as a UFA. If we want to re-sign him, I suspect we will be able to do so fairly easily. You'd either have to go with a fat one-year 'trial' deal ($5.5 mil for one season, something like that) or a lower-level term deal ($4 mil for 4 years, or what have you). Much will depend on the doctors' word and on Markov's attitude.

[Seb]

I think enough teams will be both cap-pinched and leery of Markov's injury record that we will not face anything like the competition we would otherwise have faced for Markov as a UFA. If we want to re-sign him, I suspect we will be able to do so fairly easily. You'd either have to go with a fat one-year 'trial' deal ($5.5 mil for one season, something like that) or a lower-level term deal ($4 mil for 4 years, or what have you). Much will depend on the doctors' word and on Markov's attitude.

Yeah, but he's got 7 months until July 1st, so I think at that point his agent will be able to convince teams to put up big money, like 5-6/year for 3 or 4 years. Which isn't ridiculous at all for a player of Markov's caliber, provided he can compete. And I'm willing to bet there are a couple of GMs willing to take that gamble.

[saskhab]

We should definitely know by then how the recovery is going. He'll have been working out for probably 3+ months by July 1.

I don't see Markov signing a one year bonus laden deal. It's theoretically possible, but guys like Markov don't sign those deals.

I do think the asking price will come down on him, though. So will the term. Just not to one year.

[BCHabnut]

We should definitely know by then how the recovery is going. He'll have been working out for probably 3+ months by July 1.

I don't see Markov signing a one year bonus laden deal. It's theoretically possible, but guys like Markov don't sign those deals.

I do think the asking price will come down on him, though. So will the term. Just not to one year.

If he is healed, 3 years at 4 mill would be acceptable.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Whoever it was that cleared him to play on that knee should be removed from the team rollodex of doctors numbers.

As Trump said."You're Fired!"

I said it before he came back and stand by it. He was more important to the team at the end of the season and we were doing fine without him. Why rush him? He should have been 100%, not 99%. Stupid stupid stupid...

[dlbalr]

Considering all tests have not yet been completed, the SNET reports (for the 2nd time already) are jumping the gun technically (and Doug MacLean isn't exactly a reliable source, I'll take him more seriously when he can remember how to pronounce half the players' names correctly). It's safe to say there's ligament damage, the Habs basically confirmed that by saying it's a long-term injury, but the specifics have not yet been released or even finalized.

[BTH]

This is the most nonchalant I've ever been about a Markov injury.

[Habsfan]

I'll re-ask : How soon would you do that ? July 1st or when we have more infos about his recovery ?

As soon as the Doctors can give me some news about his condition. I'd probably wait til february or maybe march. By then the Doctors will be able to tell the Habs what Markov's condition is like (hoepfully he,ll be well on his way to recovery by then). I wouldn't wait til June, that's for sure!

Edited November 17, 2010 by Habsfan

[JoeLassister]

This is the most nonchalant I've ever been about a Markov injury.

+ 1 I just take it as a test. But am fully aware that Gill, Hamrlik, Spacek and probably Gorges play will decrease a lot in something like 20-25 games... unless Gauthier moves.

[Habsy]

Wouldn't it be great if we sign him for a 4 million dollar cap hit type deal, because of his injury. And he strings together some healthy seasons.

[nikohab]

Montreal will never let Markov go regardless of his injury. A proffessional always adapts under any given situation. Markov has got the rare hockey talent which makes everybody around him better. Montreal will sign him for 5 to 6 million dollars hopefully to a 5 year contract and retire here in montreal and that is my conviction.

[dlbalr]

Montreal will never let Markov go regardless of his injury. A proffessional always adapts under any given situation. Markov has got the rare hockey talent which makes everybody around him better. Montreal will sign him for 5 to 6 million dollars hopefully to a 5 year contract and retire here in montreal and that is my conviction.

So you'd be content giving him a 5-year extension despite him possibly missing 90% or more of the season? I know I wouldn't be. Best case scenario is for him to sign a 1 year incentive deal where the cap hit is give or take 5 mil which is near market value. If he's healthy, then you give him the long-term deal. If not, then you cut bait (if he doesn't retire if the injuries keep recurring).

HW's latest article is on the loss of Markov, have to get the shameless plug in for Curt here: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=2272

[kenadian]

"Montreal Canadiens defenceman Andrei Markov, who has an undisclosed right knee injury hasn't given up on the playing this season. According to CJAD radio in Montreal, coach Jacques Martin is not ruling out the possibility that the 31-year-old would postpone surgery until after the season."

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=341912

[dlbalr]

Part of me looks at that and celebrates while the other part of me cringes as that's almost an even worse case scenario. If he needs surgery, get it and be done - I think the worst possible option is for Markov to put off surgery, play at 60%, and then enter contract talks pending a major surgery. If he gets the surgery ASAP (assuming it's an ACL once more), he'd probably be able to skate by April so at the least the team would have some sort of sense of how his recovery goes before talking contract. Heck, if the Habs go deep, he could be a late addition come playoff time.

Of course, this is all speculation until we get the results which now will come Tuesday. If it's a different ligament, that whole rambling becomes pointless.

[ForumGhost]

I would rather he get the surgery and possibly be 100% for a playoff run. Habs have shown they can win without him, and this could be an opportunity to give shots to both Carle and Weber.