My apologies to Jacques Martin.

[JoeLassister]

After a few games into the season, I was really not convinced about how Martin was using Pouliot and Eller. I really thought he was messing up with their development, especially when he was playing musical chair with 2nd line LW without trying Pouliot back where I though he'd belong.

Now, I am ready to apologize as they seem to grow up in a perfect slowly way.

I am not one of those who is reall into rushing young players in a position where they should fit later on in their carreer, but I really thought that Pouliot was ready to step in a top 6 role and that Eller was 3rd line bonafied player. It took 20 games to get there and now I'm happy that Martin worked them the way he did.

Still not convinced that Jacques Martin was the right guy to hire, but at least, I'm not convinced anymore that it was a big mistake.

Keep going Jacques.

[CoRvInA]

After a few games into the season, I was really not convinced about how Martin was using Pouliot and Eller. I really thought he was messing up with their development, especially when he was playing musical chair with 2nd line LW without trying Pouliot back where I though he'd belong.

Now, I am ready to apologize as they seem to grow up in a perfect slowly way.

I am not one of those who is reall into rushing young players in a position where they should fit later on in their carreer, but I really thought that Pouliot was ready to step in a top 6 role and that Eller was 3rd line bonafied player. It took 20 games to get there and now I'm happy that Martin worked them the way he did.

Still not convinced that Jacques Martin was the right guy to hire, but at least, I'm not convinced anymore that it was a big mistake.

Keep going Jacques.

I always thought J Martin was hired to be the future GM of the HABS... Bob Gainey hired a coach AND a replacement option if the Habs ownership was not content with the potential GM options within the Organization. I did not have Pierre Gauthier in the mix.... Nonetheless, with the departure of Guy Boucher, we are very much stuck with this scenario for at least another season seeing as the Habs have clearly established themselves as a top tier team (knock on wood).

But I'm not sure Pouliot and Eller can continue progressing so slowly... As much as I'm sure that T Moen can't continue being a top 6 forward

If Either Pouliot and Eller don't improve their game to a top 6 forward standard. You can be sure one or both will be moved to acquire one.

[dlbalr]

If Either Pouliot and Eller don't improve their game to a top 6 forward standard. You can be sure one or both will be moved to acquire one.

I'm of the opinion that Pouliot should be on the 2nd line but is there really a rush? I'm sure we all agree Moen and the 2nd line shouldn't be used in the same sentence but when the team is winning, I think it lessens the rush to go acquire a 2nd liner. Hopefully, one of Pouliot/Eller will be given a chance and succeed in that role soon enough which at least would give the Habs a little leverage in any trade talks that might occur.

[CoRvInA]

I'm of the opinion that Pouliot should be on the 2nd line but is there really a rush? I'm sure we all agree Moen and the 2nd line shouldn't be used in the same sentence but when the team is winning, I think it lessens the rush to go acquire a 2nd liner. Hopefully, one of Pouliot/Eller will be given a chance and succeed in that role soon enough which at least would give the Habs a little leverage in any trade talks that might occur.

AMen to one or both! I'm positive one will!

But come playoffs, teams playing against the Habs will study the Atlanta and Philly past games and realize that neutralizing our one skilled line and out-muscling the rest will be enough. We need 2 skilled and scoring lines on a nightly basis when playoffs come

[dlbalr]

AMen to one or both! I'm positive one will!

But come playoffs, teams playing against the Habs will study the Atlanta and Philly past games and realize that neutralizing our one skilled line and out-muscling the rest will be enough. We need 2 skilled and scoring lines on a nightly basis when playoffs come

For sure - the longer the Habs can wait though, the more salary for a replacement player they can take on though which will help. If one of Pouliot/Eller can step in short term and show they'll be ready full time next year as a top-6, that's the perfect scenario for me...provided they get someone else this year too.

[Seb]

I'm of the opinion that Pouliot should be on the 2nd line but is there really a rush? I'm sure we all agree Moen and the 2nd line shouldn't be used in the same sentence but when the team is winning, I think it lessens the rush to go acquire a 2nd liner. Hopefully, one of Pouliot/Eller will be given a chance and succeed in that role soon enough which at least would give the Habs a little leverage in any trade talks that might occur.

Or let Eller and Pouliot develop into a second line themselves, away from the stink and rot currently bogging down Gomez's game.

[dlbalr]

Or let Eller and Pouliot develop into a second line themselves, away from the stink and rot currently bogging down Gomez's game.

That would work too, they'd be the 2nd scoring line and there would be less pressure on Gomez to cure what ails him.

[Toronthab]

That would work too, they'd be the 2nd scoring line and there would be less pressure on Gomez to cure what ails him.

Gomez will be fine methinks.

[dlbalr]

Gomez will be fine methinks.

I think so as well but if Pouliot/Eller could become their own decent scoring line, Gomez won't have to put as much pressure on himself to get out of this little funk he's in. With less pressure, it stands to reason he'll come alive quicker.

[saskhab]

We will need some more scoring, whether from within or without, at some point. Right now, we can't give up 3 goals or we'll almost certainly lose.

Martin was always a good coach. I'm not convinced that we're a contender due to our lack of offense, but we are a tough team to play against, have good special teams (right now above 105% when you add PP+SH), and have made great strides 5 on 5 to the point where we aren't as beholden to the ups and downs of our top players, be they Gomez, Markov or Price. It's all positives so far. We can improve, but at least we know we have a solid foundation.

[Wamsley01]

We will need some more scoring, whether from within or without, at some point. Right now, we can't give up 3 goals or we'll almost certainly lose.

Martin was always a good coach. I'm not convinced that we're a contender due to our lack of offense, but we are a tough team to play against, have good special teams (right now above 105% when you add PP+SH), and have made great strides 5 on 5 to the point where we aren't as beholden to the ups and downs of our top players, be they Gomez, Markov or Price. It's all positives so far. We can improve, but at least we know we have a solid foundation.

I don't know if scoring will be an overwhelming problem, it all depends on the level you set your sights on.

Stanley Cup? Well, teams like Dallas, Jersey and the Habs of the 80s maintained contender status and won Cups with

limited offensive arsenals.

Playoff team? It won't be a problem, the Burns era Habs always struggled to score but ALWAYS won in the 1st round.

Julien is all about defensive zone commitment and the Bs have been a handful in the playoffs with all of their series

losses coming in Game 7 over the last 3 seasons.

Personally, I think the Habs have a better chance to win the Stanley Cup then the Capitals in 2011. Their goaltending

is suspect and they don't offer a cocoon around their young netminders like Philly does with Bobrovsky. (note: this is

not saying the Habs are better than the Caps or that they will finish ahead of them, but in the playoffs, the lack

of defensive zone commitment by the Caps will ultimately lead to failure.)

The Habs could score more, but they would sacrifice in their own zone. If Price continues to dominate like he has early

in the season, they may be willing to open it up slightly.

Defense wins championships. Always has, always will.

[BlueKross]

December, in my mind is the toughest part of the schedule. By the end of the month we should know how good we are or aren't.

[saskhab]

Come on, Wamsley... Dallas had Modano and Nieuwendyk as their top two centres and had the best goal scorer of his generation in Brett Hull. The talent level there was never an issue.

The East is filled with teams with obvious problems, so I'm not going to say that Washington can't make a run because, well, they can. It took an enormously hot goaltender to derail them last year. They were up 3-1 with their strategy before Halak got ridiculous. Yeah, they have issues in their own end that isn't limited to the goaltending, but they can improve on that by the time the playoffs roll around... they have cap space and so I won't comment on them until they get there. They have a great foundation of players who are still pretty much all improving.

I still don't think we match up all that well with Western teams... we'd probably finish last if we were in the Central Division, for example. We're a solid playoff team in the East, but IMO there's still a lot of room for improvement on that. We do have a better chance at winning the Cup, and therefore being a contender, just due to the easier draw we have to get to the Final.

[nikohab]

I always read or hear that we need scoring and I couldn't agree more. However why look for scoring elsewhere when scoring can come from our scores starting with Cammelleri,Plekanec,Gionta,Kostystynn and others. If all the players on our current roster play up to their potential then we should not be looking to trade rather we should help the players within our roster achieve their potential that's where I believe the answer lies.

[Wamsley01]

Come on, Wamsley... Dallas had Modano and Nieuwendyk as their top two centres and had the best goal scorer of his generation in Brett Hull. The talent level there was never an issue.

The East is filled with teams with obvious problems, so I'm not going to say that Washington can't make a run because, well, they can. It took an enormously hot goaltender to derail them last year. They were up 3-1 with their strategy before Halak got ridiculous. Yeah, they have issues in their own end that isn't limited to the goaltending, but they can improve on that by the time the playoffs roll around... they have cap space and so I won't comment on them until they get there. They have a great foundation of players who are still pretty much all improving.

I still don't think we match up all that well with Western teams... we'd probably finish last if we were in the Central Division, for example. We're a solid playoff team in the East, but IMO there's still a lot of room for improvement on that. We do have a better chance at winning the Cup, and therefore being a contender, just due to the easier draw we have to get to the Final.

The year they won the Cup they had one player over 60 points. Hull and Nieuwendyk were injured for a quarter of the season,

even so add in Zubov and that is 4 out of 18 skaters. They made their living off defense, just like every Hitchcock team before or since.

The team they barely beat in the Stanley Cup Final, the Buffalo Sabres were 18th in the league in scoring and their top

scorer was Mike Peca.

The Stars had 3 all-stars, but their secondary scoring was reliant upon Lehtinon, Langenbrunner, Verbeek, etc.

Their roster was littered with names like Keane, Carbonneau, Reid, Hrkac, Marshall and Skrudland. The Stars had strong

special teams and an elite goaltender.

Check the Stars goals for in the season they lost in the Stanley Cup Finals. 21st in a 28 team league.

They were a defensively committed team, offense was supplemented with a power play that had 74 goals.

The point is that the Stars forced their team to choke off offensive opportunities by sacrificing themselves for their own zone.

The Burns Habs were legendary for struggling to score goals because he would not relent in his defensive zone commitments.

As for the Capitals, I don't care if their talent is still developing. You can't abandon your defensive zone commitments without

an elite goaltender. Even if they beat the Habs, they weren't going to win the Cup with Ovechkin/Semin/Green gliding back into the play

waiting for their next offensive opportunity. From everything I have seen this year, that has not changed.

Talent does not win championships. Total commitment does. If the Capitals had shown the same commitment the Canadiens

did in the first round, they would have won the series in 5 games. I went over every goal at EOTP and there were at least 8 to 10

goals where Ovechkin either jumped over the boards for a change or coasted into his defensive zone as the puck was being pulled out

of the net. Considering they lost 3 one goal games, a committed defensive player may have changed that.

When I see Ovechkin busting his ass to backcheck, then my opinion on them will change.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Wamsley, it warms my heart to see you coming around - ever so guardedly - to the possibility that this team may be legitimately good and perhaps good enough to win I agree with you that total team commitment, goaltending, and choke-hold defence will beat defensively iffy offensive powerhouses 99 times out of 100. Given that our team seems to have all three of these qualities, I suspect we do have an outside chance. The exciting thing is that after years of wheel-spinning, the proper culture seems to have been instilled throughout the entire organization - and this matters far more than the specifics of the roster. JM is giving us what Burns and Lemaire gave us: a rock-solid structural foundation to our game. However, we are still overmatched against powerful, physical teams that play an up and down game with tight defence (Philly, Chicago, perhaps San Jose), and it's hard to see that changing; as I said in some other thread, playoff matchups will be huge in determining our fate.

All of this optimism will be harder to sustain over the coming weeks, too. Not only is the schedule tough, but the absence of Markov is already being felt in the much-documented inconsistency that is creeping into the Habs's game (two horrible periods against Philly; wretchedness against Nashville and Atlanta; etc.). With him out we cannot be as spectacularly good as we've seemed thus far, not over the longer term. Fans should gird themselves for this and remember that, although we're no longer dependent on Markov to win games, any view of ourselves as contenders probably will require him in the lineup.

Edited December 1, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[BCHabnut]

I don't think this team has a chance at teh cup yet. I would say they are close, but they aren't there. As Cucumber said, when the other team decides to shut them down, they don't penetrate, they are easily knocked off the puck, and go back into defensive mode. They have no weapons (tactical or personel) against a choking defense. When other teams shut them down, they get shut down.

[illWill]

I always read or hear that we need scoring and I couldn't agree more. However why look for scoring elsewhere when scoring can come from our scores starting with Cammelleri,Plekanec,Gionta,Kostystynn and others. If all the players on our current roster play up to their potential then we should not be looking to trade rather we should help the players within our roster achieve their potential that's where I believe the answer lies.

I don't think it is so much our players playing up to their potential to get more scoring, as it is the defensive system that we play. The system that is implemented is based on strong defensive play, puck support and getting it deep. The offensive opportunities usually come from powerplays and turnovers, which are few and far between. If a team like Washington for example, completely bought into a similar system, they as well wouldn't be lighting the lamp as often. And on the flip side, if we had a system similar to Washington, the goals would be more frequent as we do have alot of offensive weapons. You pretty much have to pick what you want to focus on and create an identity and roll with it. What we are doing is working, so there isn't much cause for concern at this moment. I mean, Gomez for example is a 0+/- and only has 7 measly points. The other team doesn't score too often when he is on the ice. So it is obvious that his main focus is on playing solid defense and shutting down the opposition. The only reason I care about the lack of offense is that it's killing my hockey pool.

[Wamsley01]

Wamsley, it warms my heart to see you coming around - ever so guardedly - to the possibility that this team may be legitimately good and perhaps good enough to win I agree with you that total team commitment, goaltending, and choke-hold defence will beat defensively iffy offensive powerhouses 99 times out of 100. Given that our team seems to have all three of these qualities, I suspect we do have an outside chance. The exciting thing is that after years of wheel-spinning, the proper culture seems to have been instilled throughout the entire organization - and this matters far more than the specifics of the roster. JM is giving us what Burns and Lemaire gave us: a rock-solid structural foundation to our game. However, we are still overmatched against powerful, physical teams that play an up and down game with tight defence (Philly, Chicago, perhaps San Jose), and it's hard to see that changing; as I said in some other thread, playoff matchups will be huge in determining our fate.

All of this optimism will be harder to sustain over the coming weeks, too. Not only is the schedule tough, but the absence of Markov is already being felt in the much-documented inconsistency that is creeping into the Habs's game (two horrible periods against Philly; wretchedness against Nashville and Atlanta; etc.). With him out we cannot be as spectacularly good as we've seemed thus far, not over the longer term. Fans should gird themselves for this and remember that, although we're no longer dependent on Markov to win games, any view of ourselves as contenders probably will require him in the lineup.

The reason I am coming around is because they are proving that they can play a system for more than

2-3 games at a time. Look at the games they lose, most of them are against shutdown defensive teams

or teams that try to slow the game down. When Columbus, Nashville, Florida, New Jersey or Ottawa score

first, then the Habs struggle to play from behind. The only games that didn't fit this mold were the Leafs game,

the Thrashers and the Philly/Tampa meltdowns.

I used to get frustrated in the late 80s/early 90s when they would struggle to score, but it was because of

the defensive commitment and it only happened when they were losing. It comes with the system. They have

been in EVERY game this season except the Atlanta game.

Even in their handful of 3-0 losses the daggers didn't come until late in the 3rd.

They have reduced their shots against and Price has been outstanding when they have broken down.

At the end of the day, the playoffs usually always come down to matchups. We should know that more than

anybody considering that the Oilers and Pens got eliminated during the last two Cup runs. Also, anybody who

was around in 1993 remembers how badly we struggled with the Bruins and how much of a gift it was when

the Sabres bounced them (the Sabres were a team the Habs eliminated in 90 and 91).

I agree that Markov could push us into the elite, but I also think that one player doesn't make that much of

a difference. The Devils system overcame the loss of Niedermayer and Stevens for a good five years before

they recently collapsed. This team is more balanced and talented then it was 3-4 seasons ago, that is why

they do not struggle like they once did.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This from Boone:

Fact: The Canadiens have not been able to string consecutive wins since Markov was injured in the 7-2 blowout over Carolina on Nov. 16. They won the first game without him, 3-0 over the Flyers, but have lost and won on an alternating basis in the seven games since.

P.K. tries on the power-play – I found him very trying last night, bada-boom – but he isn't Andrei Markov ... at least not yet.

Roman Hamrlik will pinch adroitly and score the occasional goal, like his milestone 150th last night, but he isn't Markov, either.

The Canadiens have played .500 hockey without their best defenceman. Maintaining that pace over the rest of the schedule will net them 89 points.

The team snuck into the playoffs last season with 88, so maybe .500 hockey will punch the Canadiens a ticket to the dance.

For all the positive stuff in this thread, the Markov-less Habs may nonetheless be no better than a club that plays marginally over .500.

I don't think this is an indictment of the organization - any team losing its key player is going to feel that loss sooner or later, especially given the cap system where you can't stockpile high-end players. Of course, if this keeps up, by January the fans will be in high dudgeon about 'mediocrity' and a 'bubble team,' ignoring all of this.

We also need to give the team more time to adjust before we conclude that .500 hockey is our destiny from here on in (Markov won't be back this season).

Nevertheless, we may have to face the fact that a promising season might turn frustrating on us due to this catastrophic injury. If so, I'll be very interested to see what Gauthier does. I still think we should be trying to pry Regher out of Calgary - that organization is desperate. Ottawa may be another possibly desperate dance partner. But not just yet.

[JoeLassister]

Dear Jacques,

I started a whole thread praising you and then you sit an overused rookie dman who made a mistake.

Your ears are ridiculously big. Fawk you.

[bar]

Here's what I think of JMs coaching style and where he'll end up soon!

[BTH]

This from Boone:

Fact: The Canadiens have not been able to string consecutive wins since Markov was injured in the 7-2 blowout over Carolina on Nov. 16. They won the first game without him, 3-0 over the Flyers, but have lost and won on an alternating basis in the seven games since.

P.K. tries on the power-play – I found him very trying last night, bada-boom – but he isn't Andrei Markov ... at least not yet.

Roman Hamrlik will pinch adroitly and score the occasional goal, like his milestone 150th last night, but he isn't Markov, either.

The Canadiens have played .500 hockey without their best defenceman. Maintaining that pace over the rest of the schedule will net them 89 points.

The team snuck into the playoffs last season with 88, so maybe .500 hockey will punch the Canadiens a ticket to the dance.

For all the positive stuff in this thread, the Markov-less Habs may nonetheless be no better than a club that plays marginally over .500.

I don't think this is an indictment of the organization - any team losing its key player is going to feel that loss sooner or later, especially given the cap system where you can't stockpile high-end players. Of course, if this keeps up, by January the fans will be in high dudgeon about 'mediocrity' and a 'bubble team,' ignoring all of this.

We also need to give the team more time to adjust before we conclude that .500 hockey is our destiny from here on in (Markov won't be back this season).

Nevertheless, we may have to face the fact that a promising season might turn frustrating on us due to this catastrophic injury. If so, I'll be very interested to see what Gauthier does. I still think we should be trying to pry Regher out of Calgary - that organization is desperate. Ottawa may be another possibly desperate dance partner. But not just yet.

Boone isn't considering that some of the losses will come in OT/SO so the situation is a bit better than that.

[Wamsley01]

Boone isn't considering that some of the losses will come in OT/SO so the situation is a bit better than that.

Boone writes like a fan, when things go good he over exaggerates, when they lose he over reacts.

[BTH]

Boone writes like a fan, when things go good he over exaggerates, when they lose he over reacts.

I don't even think there's reason to be nervous about this team making the playoffs. I think they've generally played well over the past 8 games, it's just that minor lapses have resulted in goals (e.g. last night, I think they deserved 2 points - it didn't bother me much to only get 1; if they play that game every nigh they should do better than .500).

Plus look how they come out after every big loss. They're really good at rebounding.