GDT: Boston vs Montreal, Dec. 16

[Wamsley01]

I watched the RDS feed, and scanning this thread I am floored to find the CBC slagging Subban for ANY aspect of his behaviour relating to that absolutely spectacular hit. That was one of the best bodychecks of the season, from any team: clean as a whistle and just devastating. Some of these NHL commentators have simply lost the plot. The kid has a big mouth, so he MUST drop the gloves after making a clean hockey play? He shouldn't let the Prunes take a pointless penalty? What the f*ck???

I hope the veterans took PK aside and told him to keep playing EXACTLY like that. The discovery that PK can crush people will really build his mystique and will also start to make people think twice about crossing the blueline with him back there. This kid has it in him to do it all, if he can just keep his head on straight and not get distracted by all the petty losers who don't want star rookies to be entertaining.

Great, character win by Les Boys. Watching this, it occured to me that I like this team a lot. Probably the best combination of talent, guts, goaltending and team concept since 1994. :hlogo:

What about Pouliot? He got nailed and didn't run around like an idiot looking for revenge.

Put your head down, you get hit. I hate the fact that clean hits need retaliation from your team or the individual.

I hope when Subban does pick his spot to fight that he destroys somebody, it will go a long way to stopping this nonsense.

If P.K was doing this for the Leafs, I can say with confidence that the narrative would be much different than the one

that has been started by Cherry.

[dlbalr]

If you're up for reading more critical comments about the CBC's analysis last night, this would be a pretty good piece to read: http://heymynameiswill.blogspot.com/2010/1...wn-show-to.html

[lazy26]

I watched the game on RDS, so I missed out on all the CBC commentary. What this about the Habs being cockroaches?

[saskhab]

What about Pouliot? He got nailed and didn't run around like an idiot looking for revenge.

Put your head down, you get hit. I hate the fact that clean hits need retaliation from your team or the individual.

I hope when Subban does pick his spot to fight that he destroys somebody, it will go a long way to stopping this nonsense.

If P.K was doing this for the Leafs, I can say with confidence that the narrative would be much different than the one

that has been started by Cherry.

Exactly. That Boychuk hit was all kinds of awesome as well, but you take your licks and move on. Boychuk responded to Subban better than Thornton or Campbell tried to, that's for sure. If you get hit cleanly, take the guy's number and try and hit him back when you can.

I have no doubt that Subban will have to fight, but this idea that we should lose one of our defenseman for five minutes for delivering a clean hit on a Bruins 4th liner is just insane. And that he'd have to fight one of the Bruins fellow 4th liners as well.

[BlueKross]

Exactly. That Boychuk hit was all kinds of awesome as well, but you take your licks and move on. Boychuk responded to Subban better than Thornton or Campbell tried to, that's for sure. If you get hit cleanly, take the guy's number and try and hit him back when you can.

I have no doubt that Subban will have to fight, but this idea that we should lose one of our defenseman for five minutes for delivering a clean hit on a Bruins 4th liner is just insane. And that he'd have to fight one of the Bruins fellow 4th liners as well.

The only reason Subban is getting picked on is there is no enforcer to stop it. Do you really want Subban to take on Lucic. I don't think so.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

What about Pouliot? He got nailed and didn't run around like an idiot looking for revenge.

Put your head down, you get hit. I hate the fact that clean hits need retaliation from your team or the individual.I hope when Subban does pick his spot to fight that he destroys somebody, it will go a long way to stopping this nonsense.

If P.K was doing this for the Leafs, I can say with confidence that the narrative would be much different than the one

that has been started by Cherry.

100%, with certain qualifiers. E.g., if a 240-pounder totally destroys Wayne Gretzky, even cleanly, he is likely to face retaliation. And I think that's rather reasonable given that player's importance to the team and to the game, and the nature of his style as a player. But what has happened is that a pretty specific and limited part of the code - 'that if you crush a small, skilled, and key player you are liable to face reprisal' - has somehow been expanded out into the idea that ANY crushing hit has to be met with angry denunciations and fist fights.

The double standards around Subban centre mainly on his wearing a Habs rather than a Leafs jersey (how often did the CBC condemn Darcy Tucker for his numerous attempt-to-injure and his ignorant chattering?) - but given the way this narrative has taken off, I really am beginning to wonder whether a subliminal racism is in fact at work here. I hate to say it. But if PK were white I really doubt the indignation over his mouthiness would be as intense. Shame on these arseholes.

[saskhab]

100%, with certain qualifiers. E.g., if a 240-pounder totally destroys Wayne Gretzky, even cleanly, he is likely to face retaliation. And I think that's rather reasonable given that player's importance to the team and to the game, and the nature of his style as a player. But what has happened is that a pretty specific and limited part of the code - 'that if you crush a small, skilled, and key player you are liable to face reprisal' - has somehow been expanded out into the idea that ANY crushing hit has to be met with angry denunciations and fist fights.

The double standards around Subban centre mainly on his wearing a Habs rather than a Leafs jersey (how often did the CBC condemn Darcy Tucker for his numerous attempt-to-injure and his ignorant chattering?) - but given the way this narrative has taken off, I really am beginning to wonder whether a subliminal racism is in fact at work here. I hate to say it. But if PK were white I really doubt the indignation over his mouthiness would be as intense. Shame on these arseholes.

No, it's not racism. Oddly enough, Dion Phaneuf had a similar rep when he came up. It's a bit more blown up because Subban plays for the Habs and not the Flames. Playing for the Habs makes him naturally more evil to these people than he would be otherwise.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

No, it's not racism. Oddly enough, Dion Phaneuf had a similar rep when he came up. It's a bit more blown up because Subban plays for the Habs and not the Flames. Playing for the Habs makes him naturally more evil to these people than he would be otherwise.

Well, I think it's an open question. But I'll admit that I'm going out on a limb, and some people may be agitated by what I'm about to say.

The key word in my post was 'subliminal.' I don't mean that Subban's critics are consciously manifesting racism; in fact I'm sure they're basically decent men who would be appalled at any overt act of racism. But the fact is that the attack on Subban is unfolding against a cultural backdrop in which those kinds of claims have all too often been levelled against successful black people. The sad reality is that North American culture has long been marked by much broader and deeply-rooted fears of both the 'uppity' Black Man who 'doesn't know his place' and the insolently 'threatening' Black Man who must be contained or jailed. Attacking Subban for being uppity and insolent starts to look slightly suspicious when placed in that wider context. It doesn't help that the NHL has had exactly ZERO all-star players who look like PK. The novelty of his 'racial' - academics would say 'racialized' - identity means that he is likely to be an especially potent trigger for those underlying, half-subconscious fears among whitebread commentators and observers. In short, I don't think we can let them off the hook so easily.

Edited December 17, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Chris]

Phanuef had to fight alot his first 2 years. He doesn't have to drop them much now.

[Wamsley01]

100%, with certain qualifiers. E.g., if a 240-pounder totally destroys Wayne Gretzky, even cleanly, he is likely to face retaliation. And I think that's rather reasonable given that player's importance to the team and to the game, and the nature of his style as a player. But what has happened is that a pretty specific and limited part of the code - 'that if you crush a small, skilled, and key player you are liable to face reprisal' - has somehow been expanded out into the idea that ANY crushing hit has to be met with angry denunciations and fist fights.

The double standards around Subban centre mainly on his wearing a Habs rather than a Leafs jersey (how often did the CBC condemn Darcy Tucker for his numerous attempt-to-injure and his ignorant chattering?) - but given the way this narrative has taken off, I really am beginning to wonder whether a subliminal racism is in fact at work here. I hate to say it. But if PK were white I really doubt the indignation over his mouthiness would be as intense. Shame on these arseholes.

This has everything to do with the logo on his jersey.

Stock, Milbury, Cherry are never called out, so they don't care about consistency or hypocrisy.

If I was on the Hot Stove Lounge I would call out Milbury every episode on his ridiculous trades,

statements and general inconsistent biased viewpoint. Why is this guy treated like an expert when

he traded Chara, Redden, Spezza, Bertuzzi, Luongo, Jokinen etc and got Kvasha, Dipietro, Potvin,

Yashin and Parrish in return.

He is an expert in how to be a terrible GM and a defenseman who could barely skate and used his

own face for a punching bag. He talks about discipline and the code and he was the guy who attacked

fans at MSG during a game. Artest is villified, this guy gets to be on CBC as an expert.

CBC has already proven that they are more interested in the Howard Stern aspect of drawing viewers

than creating an unbiased analytical approach that reports what is actually happening.

Everybody loves Elliote Friedeman, but he is the worst offender in creating stories and not reporting them.

Every interview has some sort of ridiculous montage trying to link the story to some emotional center.

For something that acted as the center of my hockey experience for the first 25 years of my life, it is

amazing how everything they do makes my skin crawl today. I can't even tune in just for the intro and

the nostalgia anymore. 10 years ago I would have been upset had they lost the National TV rights, now

I could care less.

Well, I think it's an open question. But I'll admit that I'm going out on a limb, and some people may be agitated by what I'm about to say.

The key word in my post was 'subliminal.' I don't mean that Subban's critics are consciously manifesting racism; in fact I'm sure they're basically decent men who would be appalled at any overt act of racism. But the fact is that the attack on Subban is unfolding against a cultural backdrop in which those kinds of claims have all too often been levelled against successful black people. The sad reality is that North American culture has long been marked by much broader and deeply-rooted fears of both the 'uppity' Black Man who 'doesn't know his place' and the insolently 'threatening' Black Man who must be contained or jailed. Attacking Subban for being uppity and insolent starts to look slightly suspicious when placed in that wider context. It doesn't help that the NHL has had exactly ZERO all-star players who look like PK. The novelty of his 'racial' - academics would say 'racialized' - identity means that he is likely to be an especially potent trigger for those underlying, half-subconscious fears among whitebread commentators and observers. In short, I don't think we can let them off the hook so easily.

Your stance is understandable in relation to guys like Cherry and Milbury because of the era in which they were raised.

Not sure if it is true, but I don't have a problem with it.

[Wamsley01]

Phanuef had to fight alot his first 2 years. He doesn't have to drop them much now.

Phaneuf entered the league with a Scott Stevens type reputation. You want to model your game

after an intimidating presence, then you have to intimidate to do it. Hence if you don't fight you

cannot intimidate.

Subban's persona is that of an elite offensive defenseman who has always been flamboyant.

Sooner or later he will have to fight, but it doesn't have to be after laying out a guy and proving

himself to 4th liners.

[JoeLassister]

can we find a video of the 1st intermission with Milbury and Stock ??

[Chris]

I agree, but throwing those big hits will get you challenged. A few fights would do him some good. There is a time and place for him to do so.

I'm excited to see the habs first hand on Sunday. They are making back to Denver finally.

[Colin]

As per PJ Stock last night, I think PK should have a new nickname.

"The Factor"

No matter what he does, he's a factor. Brilliance. PJ was referring to someone from long ago with that nick, I think it suits PK to a 't.' Bout time we had better nicknames in this league anyhow.

[saskhab]

Phanuef had to fight alot his first 2 years. He doesn't have to drop them much now.

Phaneuf fought three times in his rookie year. Once very early against Guerin, than two times in January (Mark Bell and Barret Jackman). He then fought once in the playoffs.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/1615/fightcard/reg2006

You'll notice that none of the players Phaneuf dropped 'em with were scrubs: they were top 6 forwards/top 4 D for their teams at the time (I realize Bell dropped hard and fast, but in 05-06 he was a top 6 for Chicago). There were many times when he refused to drop them when challenged because it was a goon or a scrub doing so. It was an issue with people out here. It didn't get as big as Subban's has because he plays out west and no one in Toronto, New York, or Philly cared, and the most visible Western team in Detroit never fights anyways.

If Richards wants to fight P.K., I'm all for that. If Nathan Horton wants to go, let's go. Give him someone worthy of fighting (those players are admittedly more valuable to their teams than P.K., just using examples) and let 'em go. Send him Shawn Thornton and Colton Orr, tell 'em to screw off.

[illWill]

The double standards around Subban centre mainly on his wearing a Habs rather than a Leafs jersey (how often did the CBC condemn Darcy Tucker for his numerous attempt-to-injure and his ignorant chattering?) - but given the way this narrative has taken off, I really am beginning to wonder whether a subliminal racism is in fact at work here. I hate to say it. But if PK were white I really doubt the indignation over his mouthiness would be as intense. Shame on these arseholes.

No, it's not racism. Oddly enough, Dion Phaneuf had a similar rep when he came up. It's a bit more blown up because Subban plays for the Habs and not the Flames. Playing for the Habs makes him naturally more evil to these people than he would be otherwise.

I think that it is sadly a mixture of both. Players wearing the blue, blanc et rouge are are either hated or loved as it is, and quite simply, so is Subban. I believe that PK is one of the best things to happen to hockey since Sid and Ovie, not Hart trophy wise but impacting people wise. He represents an entire race and will help the game grow, just like Yao Ming did for basketball or Eminem for rap music. Just like anybody who is a budding star, there will be people who will try to knock them down a notch. It is just frustrating to hear so frequently all the negatives about such a great talent and personality. Off the ice PK says all the right things and appears to have a good head on his shoulders, nothing that warrants any criticism. On the ice he plays with passion and confidence and it's fair to say that 29 other teams would love to have him. I agree with CC in that I believe there is a subliminal racism in play for some. I'm reminded of Darren Pang's slip of the tongue saying something like " Subban playing the white way" instead of right way. I do believe that if he were white, and had on a Maple Leaf jersey, he would be the favourite for the new prime minister of Canada.

[dlbalr]

can we find a video of the 1st intermission with Milbury and Stock ??

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Sports/CBC%27s_H.../Coast_to_Coast (First one on there.)

[saskhab]

I think that it is sadly a mixture of both. Players wearing the blue, blanc et rouge are are either hated or loved as it is, and quite simply, so is Subban. I believe that PK is one of the best things to happen to hockey since Sid and Ovie, not Hart trophy wise but impacting people wise. He represents an entire race and will help the game grow, just like Yao Ming did for basketball or Eminem for rap music. Just like anybody who is a budding star, there will be people who will try to knock them down a notch. It is just frustrating to hear so frequently all the negatives about such a great talent and personality. Off the ice PK says all the right things and appears to have a good head on his shoulders, nothing that warrants any criticism. On the ice he plays with passion and confidence and it's fair to say that 29 other teams would love to have him. I agree with CC in that I believe there is a subliminal racism in play for some. I'm reminded of Darren Pang's slip of the tongue saying something like " Subban playing the white way" instead of right way. I do believe that if he were white, and had on a Maple Leaf jersey, he would be the favourite for the new prime minister of Canada.

If he was just wearing a Maple Leaf jersey, he would be treated with the same love that if he were were also white and wearing that jersey. Don Cherry loves Nazem Kadri, and had a Coach's Corner about once a month last year (and the start of this year) saying he should've made the team. It's okay to like him because he's from southern Ontario. Race isn't an issue there. If Subban were Swedish or Quebecois, man he'd be screwed. But he's from the GTA so he's a good ole Canadian boy. But why is he wearing that Frenchie uni?

[Wamsley01]

If he was just wearing a Maple Leaf jersey, he would be treated with the same love that if he were were also white and wearing that jersey. Don Cherry loves Nazem Kadri, and had a Coach's Corner about once a month last year (and the start of this year) saying he should've made the team. It's okay to like him because he's from southern Ontario. Race isn't an issue there. If Subban were Swedish or Quebecois, man he'd be screwed. But he's from the GTA so he's a good ole Canadian boy. But why is he wearing that Frenchie uni?

The problem is that Cherry, Milbury and Stock act like fans. They make it 100% clear that they support the Bruins,

just like Healey is 100% loyal to the Maple Leafs. When he had something nice to say about Kovalev, it was because

he was loyal to a guy he won a Cup with, nothing to do with the Habs.

So if they act like fans, they possess the same irrational hatreds and bias that fans do. When their team is losing, they

lash out in an irrational manner because they are frustrated. Just like Richards did after the Habs just shut them out 2-0.

If the first period had ended 2 or 3-0 Bruins, they likely would have said nothing because they would have had 5-6 things to

point out that made the Bruins better than the Habs. With them trailing 3-1 and the 3rd goal directly related to PK's hit

and subsequent PP, it was fuel to their fire.

So you get two idiotic Bruin fans ranting about their team trailing 3-1. They certainly didn't want to talk about Montreal

outshooting them 17-9, they didn't want to talk about Montreal winning the physical battle because that is analysis and

presents Montreal as a better team.

This is my biggest problem with the CBC. Outside of Carbo, there is no Canadiens fans on any of the announce teams or

studio hosts so you get zero support when they decide to rant. They got rid of Cuthbert who never made his bias evident and the death of Wittman robbed them of another great who remained mostly impartial. Now they have the Sens announce team, Cole

who is a tried and true Leaf fan and Simpson who never has kind words to say about the Habs.

Hughson is ok, but he comes with Simpson. The only team I can stomach is Lee and Weekes.

For what is supposed to be the leading edge in hockey coverage the CBC is nothing but a fraud.

[CoRvInA]

back to the game...

Well, it seems JM will... or better yet Perry, has started from scratch on the D.

He played PK and Picard for 14 min only... while the other duos played over 22 min each. Meaning no more go with your instinct.. BUT a follow the plan game for our D! For Better or Worse it's gonna have to be that way.

Gill and Spacek were further back in their own end, and that was equally good. Gill was less of an "orange cone" last night.

This I believe is necessary, and as I've said time and again, the current D needs to optimize their ice time. Unfortunately we will see less exiting Hammers and PKs pinching up for a goal. But its only temporary. Once these guys start fulfilling their primary roles first... then the rest will come gradually.

Also the forwards were more defensively minded i thought

That Yanky/Latin/Guido line is gorgeous to watch... Gomer's rest week had similar results to Kovy's week off a couple of years ago. I'm convinced Scotth Gomez plays better when surrounded by talented, fearless and hard working wingers.

GomeZ is not really a motivator, he NEEDS motivation. And when he is on his game teams will always will be wary of him even if he is on a bad night. When is the last time Boston and Thomas got 4 or more goals scored on, I'll tell ya, first week of Nov!

[Habsfan]

Well, I was glad to see our boys come up with the Win. I had my christmas party last night, so I missed the game, but I saw the highlights on RDS.

Awesome move by Cammalleri on the pEnalty shot. I was also impressed with his pugilistic skills!

I thought P.K's hit was incredible. it was clean, and I'm glad he didn't drop the gloves. There was no need to do so.

I know that we've done well so far, but sometimes, I do wish we had a goon in games like last night.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

We didn't need a goon last night. The fact is - and this may be part of what was disturbing Milbury and Stock - the Habs were the more physical team. These guys showed ZERO signs of being pushed around, and with guys like PK and Pacioretty taking a regular shift the team suddenly looks decidedly bigger. A lot of the mewling about the 'dirty' Habs may be a combination of 1. whining about big-mouth irritants like Lapierre and Subban who annoy but don't drop the mitts (but - news flash - being annoying and not fighting is NOT the same thing as being 'dirty'); 2. confused shock at being outmuscled by a supposed team of 'smurfs' (in fact, we're not that small); 3. excuse-making for the fact that Habs are a damned strong team. Of course, I also don't rule out 4, that we can do the chippy stuff with the best of 'em I recall some reporter quoting an opponent as saying that if he's always hacked up after facing Pleks.

This sort of argument, especially as it relates to the Prunes, goes way back. Guys like Carbo and Chelios yapped and sliced guys up and tended not to drop the gloves. Now those guys are considered legends. Our boys are in good company as far as I'm concerned.

Edited December 17, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

We didn't need a goon last night. The fact is - and this may be part of what was disturbing Milbury and Stock - the Habs were the more physical team. These guys showed ZERO signs of being pushed around, and with guys like PK and Pacioretty taking a regular shift the team suddenly looks decidedly bigger. A lot of the mewling about the 'dirty' Habs may be a combination of 1. whining about big-mouth irritants like Lapierre and Subban who annoy but don't drop the mitts (but - news flash - being annoying is not the same thing as being 'dirty'); 2. confused shock at being outmuscled by a supposed team of 'smurfs' (in fact, we're not that small); 3. excuse-making for the fact that Habs are a damned strong team. Of course, I also don't rule of 4, that we can do the chippy stuff with the best of 'em

We don't need a goon for any team, what we need is a player who can play and keep the other team accountable.

Unfortunately, those are not easy to come by. Souray was the last guy we had who had the ability to play a regular

shift and step up and take care of business if necessary.

The rep for being small comes from our skill guys. Plekanec, Cammalleri, Gomez and Gionta are less than 6'0".

The rest of the team is 6 foot plus. Once again, the media is more interested in pushing forth the stereotype than

the reality.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Wamsley01

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

We don't need a goon for any team, what we need is a player who can play and keep the other team accountable.

Unfortunately, those are not easy to come by. Souray was the last guy we had who had the ability to play a regular

shift and step up and take care of business if necessary.

OK, I'll buy that. What I don't buy is that we were in any way outmuscled or intimidated last night.

[Wamsley01]

OK, I'll buy that. What I don't buy is that we were in any way outmuscled or intimidated last night.

The Bruins haven't outmuscled us in years. It is a stereotype.

Lucic/Chara creates this perception that they are BIG AND BAD.

Savard and Recchi are not big guys. Krejci doesn't play a physical game at 6'0" and 178 lbs.

Wheeler is the softest 6'5" guy in the league. Ryder? Physical player?

The Habs are only missing a guy that will keep teams like the Flyers honest.

Since the media created the "smurf" stereotype the Habs have added the 6'1" Eller,

6'0" 203 lb. Halpern, 6'2" Pacioretty, 6'3" Pouliot, 6'0" 200 lb. Subban and

the 6'2" 210 lb. Picard.

They are not a small team.